Bloodmark/Searpoint feedback

[Gavin_Kelvar]

 

This seems unlikely. These ships will not be as strong solo, which a lot of players put value on. They also are clearly wonky in several ways.

 

That certainly seems true. Which is fair to an extent. But as part of the scout or striker class they still need to be able to hold their own or else they won't do any good as the support buffs will basically be compensating for the fact that you're the weak link in the group rather than making the group even stronger than it would be with just another Type 1 or 2 of that class.

 

I guess my main concern is that the scout and striker classes have base stats designed around them being the offensive backbone of a team. Which means the base stats the Type 3 components are working with are designed around an offensive heavy role. To me that means that the Type 3s should retain a focus of offensive 1st, support 2nd.

 

Certainly they have the potential and IMO they just need some components added or swapped out to really be good. But right now I think they're a tad too focused on the support role and not focused enough on the offensive role. Hence why I think retro thrusters should be added as an engine option for both Type 3s and have the sensors replaced with thrusters (maybe the scouts can do ok with sensors but I very much doubt that it will go over well with the striker).

[Verain]

I think it's full of tears. They could be legit- this scout could suck. But I sort of doubt it because of the really bad comparisons I keep seeing.

 

Ships without thrusters aren't "bombers". Ships that buff aren't "bombers with less hull".

 

Bomber has: Engine speed of 636. Afterburner cost 5 and 10.4 per second. 1.32 degrees per second pitch.

Scout has: Engine speed of 780. Afterburner cost 4 and 8.7 per second. 1.8 degrees per second pitch.

 

(these numbers are with efficient maneuvers crew passive). That's before thrusters. Also before the engine component that can increase your speed or turning, that scouts (can and usually do) have and bombers do not.

 

A scout missing their thrusters are a little bit lacking at turn fights or getting across the map. A scout missing barrel roll is better at evading missiles and worse at moving across the map (in the patch). Yes, thrusters are probably a stronger component than sensors. Yes, that seems to be deliberate on their part.

 

 

Most of how maneuverable your ship is, is the class of ship. The strike with double turning percent (engine and secondary) only narrowly outturns the scout with none of that at all. If you take this scout and want to duel stings, yea, you're gonna have a bad time. That's not what it's for!

Edited March 6, 2014 by Verain

[Verain]

To me that means that the Type 3s should retain a focus of offensive 1st, support 2nd.

 

And don't they? They have decent guns. They have a support choice of missiles, but let me assure you, ions clean shields right up, thermites slaughter unshielded opponents, emps guarantee your friends can land attacks (as does the system), protons erase hull. The ship doesn't lose its ability to be offensive just because it can't equip concussions, clusters, and rocket pods. The ship can turn well, boost well, shoot well, and has a threatening missile of some sort. Giving up a component optimal for dogfighting doesn't mean that they aren't an offensive ship, is I guess my point.

 

(maybe the scouts can do ok with sensors but I very much doubt that it will go over well with the striker).

 

I dunno, I'm looking forward to that strike a heck of a lot. Sure, I'd trade thrusters for sensors, but only because I'd feel obligated to. I like being able to provide some eyes for the team- assuming that they change the game to reward that and get rid of the guaranteed 15km thing.

[DroidDreamer]

I appreciate the effort but it's a BIG shame that this somewhat muddled "support" ship has BY FAR the BEST LOOK of any ship in the game. I wish they'd made the chassis a Cartel Market item instead. Now I'll never get to fly it along with a build out I like.

 

Love this game otherwise, of course.

[The_Raven_Lord]

I appreciate the effort but it's a BIG shame that this somewhat muddled "support" ship has BY FAR the BEST LOOK of any ship in the game. I wish they'd made the chassis a Cartel Market item instead. Now I'll never get to fly it along with a build out I like.

 

Love this game otherwise, of course.

 

Please don't give them bad ideas. It's bad enough they charge CC to convert to fleet requisition instead of doing it like they do with Warzone to Ranked commendations.

 

Other that that, I agree with you, it is a shame.

[Ramalina]

I looked at the new scout and strike ships, and while the scout doesn't exactly impress, it's really no worse than a Novadive/Blackblolt assuming you use it as intended.

 

Intended use, as a support ship for a coordinated group of ships. The missing component that you should be whining about is average GSF pilot competence.

 

Your main job in a type 3 will be to stick with a group of dogfighting build strikes or scouts, and if they're doing their part as part of a coordinated team it's really not going to be that hard. The thing is, you're going to be spending most of your time and resources maneuvering and timing buff cooldown employment. Shooting will be a rare occurrence reserved for special situations. An electronic warfare F/A-18 can carry AIM-9s and AMRAAMs just like a normal F/A-18, but if it's using them then it's not performing its primary function.

 

What I'm really looking forward to is the type three strike fighter. The scout looked ok, the strike looks like it could turn a group of strike fighters into a ravening horde of destruction. Subject to the unlikely event that they all have complementary builds and fly well as a team that uses VIOP communications.

 

Honestly, I don't think it's a problem to have a few ships that heavily reward coordinated team play. Teamwork is something that GSF could use more of, so why not give gear that rewards it strongly?

[Tymme]

I'm cautiously optimistic about the Spearpoint being a useful ship, which is good because as soon as I saw the model in the KDY flashpoint I knew I had to have it!

 

I haven't flown it yet on PTS, but looking at the Dufly build calculator, I'm intrigued by the possibilities. When I look at it, I remind myself that this isn't going to be the fastest ship, or the best close-range dogfighter. If I want a fast gunship-killer, I'll fly my NovaDive. If I want to duel with other scouts under a satellite, I'll fly my Flashfire. But I also realize that when I'm in my NovaDive, I'll be eaten alive by Flashfires - I may get to the satelite first, but I won't last long once the Flashfires show up. And my Flashfire is essentially useless if I want to clear out a well-entrenched bomber, as I'll probably get mined to death before I can take it out. The point being, every ship has a role, and we can't go thinking that the Spearpoint is designed for the fastest ship on the field or the best 1 v 1 dogfighter role - why make a new ship that fills a role that the other scouts already do?

 

Now I would agree that the novice who takes these ships because they look cool are going to get eaten alive, as they do make some sacrifices (namely speed/maneuverability and close-range firepower) for some more subtle advantages. But I think a veteran who builds their Spearpoint with a specific role in mind, and knows what their ship can and cannot do could have a lot of fun with it. For example, I think what I'm going to do with it is (with Domination matches in mind):

 

Rapid-fire Laser - Not quite burst laser, but of the three I like it for the short range effectiveness and ease on my weapon power pool.

 

EMP Missile - Gives me the ability to soften up a turtled bomber under a satellite, though I could see going Ion Missile as well.

 

Interdiction Drive - I'm designing my ship for assaulting satelites, so I'm not so much worried about breaking missile locks. But this will take away the maneuverability advantage of Flashfire/Stings clustered under the satelite.

 

Distortion Field / Lightweight Armor - Gives me my missile lock break back, and I can match the evasion ability of a Flashfire.

 

System - I'm still undecided on this. I'm not going to dismiss Tensor Field and Combat Command as useless due to their range, because I'm designing this ship to give my team a boost in assaulting a satelite. But I can see taking Telemetry because it gives me te best solo burst damage boost (and don't forget that stealther is almost certainly the next class of ship).

 

And as far as secondary systems, you're basically trading a Thruster for a Reactor. But hey, if I want speed and turning, I can take Tensor Field, which also helps my allies. But the Reactor does give you some extra survivability, which is nice, especially after the shield piercing nerf.

 

So, when you're defending, huddled up with your mine field and Stings - I drop an EMP Missile on your bomber to destroy the minefield and disable half your ability bar for 15 seconds, then fly in, pop Interdiction and nerf the turning radius on your scouts while the rest of my team flies in for the kill, we'll see who's a "useless support ship" then.

 

Now, will that work out in the real world and not just on paper... only time will tell. But I think the Spearpoint offers a lot of potential for a creative team player.

[Slivovidze]

Ok seriously. They are now LYING to us? FFS, they put these ships on PTS having literally nothing of what they promise in a trailer 3 days later.

Either they are lying with no shame, which puts BW on EA's level in my eyes, or they saw our feedback and made some changes which aren't in PTS yet.

Using "Fast and Evasive" is far from PTS reality, but that could be called "just a hype". But the actual footage of Barrel Roll being mounted on that ship is a horrible lie straight to customer's eyes, unless they actually made that change. This is no longer marketing but straight on lying.

I'm ready to try and squeeze the best from that ship, even if PTS is the way things will be, but if that will become reality, BW will fall harshly in my eyes.

 

Until now, I somehow blamed EA for all the stupid screwups/money digging, but here I see a big mistake on BW's part. Liying to the customer is bad way to do business.

[Kuciwalker]

Also note- we've seen a nerf of the sensor dampening components. This MAY mean that the 15km min range is being removed. If that is the case, then a sensor component ship may offer your team a lot more than you think, right? If a gunship can sneak up to 12k and not be seen, for instance, a strike with ranged sensors might really help.

 

The problem here is I think the developers (and many players when theorycrafting) massively overrate the importance of "scouting".

 

The fact is, >90% of the time you are going to be able to see any ship that you care about. Even if that ship isn't in your 15km range, it's probably in the 15km range of one of your allies.

 

The edge case is gunships that deliberately just creep into range, but even they only ever achieve a momentary advantage. As soon as someone attempts to engage the gunship, it will be firmly in his sensor radius, which will get shared with pretty much everyone in a position to care. Yes, if the gunship immediately flees you sometimes get situations where it flits in and out of the 15km radius, but that means it has effectively disengaged anyway. A gunship that pokes its nose in once every 30s for a shot or two isn't doing much useful.

 

Scouting doesn't help defend in domination. If you have ships guarding a satellite then you already have as much information as you'll ever need, irrespective of any formal "scouting" mechanics. If you for some reason don't have any guards on one of your satellites, you still get a lot of warning that it's under attack because you can see the turret status. The marginal value of dropping a sensor beacon there too as node-guard is very, very small.

 

Scouting can help attack in domination, but actual scouting upgrades don't help much with this. You just need a ship to go poke its nose over there and see if there are any defenders. Forcing it to go even an extra 10km round trip to do this (because it doesn't have a sensor package) is just not a big cost - not a cost worth designing an entire ship class around minimizing.

 

In TDM scouting is very thoroughly pointless because the nature of the match means both sides have to find each other. In theory you could have one team get a lead, then run away and hide, forcing the other team to scout for them... in practice that doesn't happen and won't happen. Battle lines also tend to evolve slowly enough that there's very little advantage to gaining the "initiative" at first contact.

 

All of this is a consequence of the promiscuity of sensor sharing between ships and the relatively small scales of maps relative to ship speeds and sensor ranges.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

And don't they? They have decent guns. They have a support choice of missiles, but let me assure you, ions clean shields right up, thermites slaughter unshielded opponents, emps guarantee your friends can land attacks (as does the system), protons erase hull. The ship doesn't lose its ability to be offensive just because it can't equip concussions, clusters, and rocket pods. The ship can turn well, boost well, shoot well, and has a threatening missile of some sort. Giving up a component optimal for dogfighting doesn't mean that they aren't an offensive ship, is I guess my point.

 

They do have a good focus on offensive in terms of loadouts, particularly the striker. I still kinda wish they had heavy cannons as an option but I can live without them.

 

My concern is that they're too focused on support by having the sensor minor component instead of thrusters. We already have the Type 1 scout for recon so Type 3 scouts aren't filling a role with sensors that isn't already adequately filled. As Kuciwalker notes actual recon has very little value so I'm not sure that having two scout types that will be effectively competing with each other for the role of recon is wise, the Type 3 shouldn't have components that are only useful in making it to compete with a stablemate in a role that is already filled.

 

Similarly the entire striker class lacks the sensor base stats to make good use of the sensor component. A type 1 scout, and as it currently stands, Type 3 scout will invariably always be better. On my Type 1 striker using just the companion sensor radius and comm buffs I can pretty much see everything on the minimap that I might need to see. So you're setting the Type 3 striker up with a component that will largely be useless if there are any Type 1 (or Type 3) scouts in the area. The only case it might be useful is if they're guarding an objective by themselves or with just a skeleton defense in which case they may not be using their striker in a way that provides maximum benefit to the team anyway.

 

Now I get why they might not want to give either Type 3 barrel role, they may not want them to have that kind of mobility which is fine. But what I don't get is why they don't have retro thrusters. It provides some tactical variability and would compliment their missile payload by making it easier to achieve a lock. Right now their missile evading abilities are very similar to one another (the Type 3 scout getting snap turn and Koiogran which reorient the ship in the exact same direction so you're really only choosing how you want that reorientation to occur).

 

Again it's not that they lack the offensive weapons to have good offensive potential. It's that some of their components are setting them up to compete with existing ships that already perform that role at a comparable level or are superior in that role. Why loose some offensive potential via component options in order to compete with existing ships when the best case scenario is that you both can perform that role equally well?

[Tymme]

I would have to agree with the "ditch the Sensor on the type 3 scout" sentiment. Having the T1 scout with increased sensor range is more than sufficient, and its usefulness is pretty marginal unless you are the T1 scout doing the "seek and destroy gunships" role. If I could make one improvement to the T3 scout, I'd say add a Magazine. Adding a Thruster would make it too much like the other scouts, but add a Magazine and you have something worth flying - a scout that gives up its speed/maneuverability so that it can have an Armor / Reactor combo for survivability and a Capacitor / Magazine combo to increase the effectiveness of its blasters (and make up for the loss of short-range missile options). And hey, then we can justify the third engine as being needed as a source of power for the additional components and a heavier ship, rather than being for speed.

[Bleeters]

It has the same mobility as a bomber, without any of the defenses. Enjoy.

I'm not sure where this 'same mobility as a bomber' thing is coming from. The scout is faster than one by design, capable of nearly twice the speed for a pretty reasonable duration, and has more efficient afterburners.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Bleeters

[Verain]

Magazine is like the WORST component. It has some utility here and there, but I don't think it would mesh with the scout being support.

[Armonddd]

Magazine is like the WORST component. It has some utility here and there, but I don't think it would mesh with the scout being support.

 

Where and where? Capacity extender is of questionable value in any circumstance, and no weapon has enough power draw to really justify the power pool/regeneration upgrades.

 

That said, I'd take it over sensors. Probably.

 

You know, the bigger problem is that there's six minor component types and two of them are just crap. How different would the game be if you couldn't put on any of the three reactors just because you had a reactor slot, or something? Or if, you know, the minor components were actually balanced?

[Verain]

You hit the nail on the head.

 

 

Il'l play devil's advocate a moment: it could be ok to have a weaker component or two, because that could serve to balance a ship that has otherwise very select choices of primary components.

 

But I don't really believe that- in practice, it just feels lame.

 

 

I like magazines on my Pike, because when I run clusters I can take the extra ammo one. I think it's fair to say that the magazine actually feels real on the gunship too. These are pretty dicey uses- I would likely take a reactor on my pike and armor on my starguard over this if given the choice.

 

Sensors barely matter ever. If the minimum 15km range is going away (with the dampening sensors being nerfed, this could be the case), then that COULD be ok- you might feel naked without a sensor friendly somewhere near detecting gunships etc.

 

 

But yea, they just need to balance the damned things.

[Armonddd]

I like magazines on my Pike, because when I run clusters I can take the extra ammo one. I think it's fair to say that the magazine actually feels real on the gunship too. These are pretty dicey uses- I would likely take a reactor on my pike and armor on my starguard over this if given the choice.

 

I guess I feel like the base weapon stats are appropriately balanced without a magazine, and the magazine doesn't do enough to make me feel like I need it, or that it's really contributing much. I don't know if a numbers tweak would be the right way to fix things, though -- strikes are already pretty good mid-range fighters, I'm not sure they need the effective dps that would come from using quads with a magazine that gives +40% power regen instead of +20%, and that would certainly lower the skill requirement.

[Nemarus]

I guess I feel like the base weapon stats are appropriately balanced without a magazine, and the magazine doesn't do enough to make me feel like I need it, or that it's really contributing much. I don't know if a numbers tweak would be the right way to fix things, though -- strikes are already pretty good mid-range fighters, I'm not sure they need the effective dps that would come from using quads with a magazine that gives +40% power regen instead of +20%, and that would certainly lower the skill requirement.

 

I think the skill required for actually making these fighters useful is already high enough.

 

And considering the Imperium has no anti-starfighter weapons, being able to do as much as possible with lasers seems important.

[Nemarus]

People, let's get more of this feedback in the PTS forums, where devs are likely to see it.

 

Bump onto this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7266461#post7266461 (which refers to this one too)

[Kuciwalker]

I like magazines on my Pike, because when I run clusters I can take the extra ammo one. I think it's fair to say that the magazine actually feels real on the gunship too. These are pretty dicey uses- I would likely take a reactor on my pike and armor on my starguard over this if given the choice.

 

Yes, regen magazine is reasonably important to a gunship.

[Morgrid]

I see you keep referring to the new ships as "Fighters".

 

They are not. (calling the Sith Empire the Imperium is another thing....)

 

They are Command / Control or Electronic Warfare ships that share a platform with a fighter. Much like the F/A-18F and the E/A-18G Growler in real life.

 

The two aircraft may share 90% of parts between the two but that 10% difference makes all the difference. The E/A has to give up some of it's Air to Air performance to enable it to perform it's EW mission.

[Nemarus]

I see you keep referring to the new ships as "Fighters".

 

They are not. (calling the Sith Empire the Imperium is another thing....)

 

They are Command / Control or Electronic Warfare ships that share a platform with a fighter. Much like the F/A-18F and the E/A-18G Growler in real life.

 

The two aircraft may share 90% of parts between the two but that 10% difference makes all the difference. The E/A has to give up some of it's Air to Air performance to enable it to perform it's EW mission.

 

Yes, but that electronic warfare component actually has to be beneficial enough to warrant the loss of a Scout, Dogfighter, Gunship, Bomber, or anything else. Right now that is a hard claim to make. Combat Command is worthless--no one needs more accuracy or laser regen. Since 2.6, Evasion is not the bogeyman it once was. If anything is a bogeyman, it's the Bomber, which has no Evasion at all.

 

Tensor Field has exactly one moment when it is useful--at the start of a Domination match. The rest of the time, the best it can hope for is to somewhat mitigate the Bloodmark's lack of Thrusters and Barrel Roll.

 

Besides those two abilities, everything else the Bloodmark has can be found on another ship that is better-suited to to a support role.

 

Shield Projector and Repair Probe are far more relevant to a Bomber, which can survive beside allies in an area under heavy fire, than they are to a Scout, which risks destruction if it does not flee from attackers.

 

Utility missiles are far better suited to a Pike, which can survive a direct attack Bombers and Satellite Turrets.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

I see you keep referring to the new ships as "Fighters".

 

They are not. (calling the Sith Empire the Imperium is another thing....)

 

They are Command / Control or Electronic Warfare ships that share a platform with a fighter. Much like the F/A-18F and the E/A-18G Growler in real life.

 

The two aircraft may share 90% of parts between the two but that 10% difference makes all the difference. The E/A has to give up some of it's Air to Air performance to enable it to perform it's EW mission.

 

Well for my part while I like the idea of an Electronic Warfare fighter I just have misgivings about some of the component options.

 

Take the Type 3 striker for example (and yes I know I've said it before). Sensors seem cool and on paper fit with the ship's concept. The problem is that in practice there will be two other ships (Type 1 & 3 scouts) that will have the sensor component and will be able use them more effectively. Barring the rare occasion where you don't have a scout in the area the sensor component on the striker will largely be doing nothing as any enemies the striker detects would have already been pinged by a scout. That's my concern, giving ships components that look good on paper and in isolation but in practice will make no contribution to the team.

[wingzerokia]

I see you keep referring to the new ships as "Fighters".

 

They are not. (calling the Sith Empire the Imperium is another thing....)

 

They are Command / Control or Electronic Warfare ships that share a platform with a fighter. Much like the F/A-18F and the E/A-18G Growler in real life.

 

The two aircraft may share 90% of parts between the two but that 10% difference makes all the difference. The E/A has to give up some of it's Air to Air performance to enable it to perform it's EW mission.

 

You have no idea how true that is, as someone whom used to fly E-6B's along side A-6E's, I can tell you use I could do the A.T.G. or inflight refueling work of an A-6E, but then I wouldn't be doing my job of hunting S.A.M. sties, or providing E.W. support.

 

I think I'll reserve judgment on the new craft till after I've had a chance to try one out, and been put up against them, right now all of this theory-craft is all talk, and crying that the sky is falling, just wait and see if the unit will be a good addition or not.

[Nemarus]

You have no idea how true that is, as someone whom used to fly E-6B's along side A-6E's, I can tell you use I could do the A.T.G. or inflight refueling work of an A-6E, but then I wouldn't be doing my job of hunting S.A.M. sties, or providing E.W. support.

 

I think I'll reserve judgment on the new craft till after I've had a chance to try one out, and been put up against them, right now all of this theory-craft is all talk, and crying that the sky is falling, just wait and see if the unit will be a good addition or not.

 

The crying about the Comet Breaker was all true. It's still garbage.

[Armonddd]

You have no idea how true that is, as someone whom used to fly E-6B's along side A-6E's, I can tell you use I could do the A.T.G. or inflight refueling work of an A-6E, but then I wouldn't be doing my job of hunting S.A.M. sties, or providing E.W. support.

 

Is this the real life?

 

Or is this just fantasy?

 

Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality.

 

(hint, this is not the real life, this is fantasy and theorycrafting is important)