2.7 Tank Builds

[dipstik]

Updates

 

 

Update 7/8/14: Provided stat distribution for using absorb relic with defense relic. Used (6/23)*(6/23) weight for both on, (6/23)*(17/23) for defense on, absorb off, (6/23)*(17/23) weight for absorb on defense off and (17/23)*(17/23) for both off (keeping static defense during defense off portions).

Update 5/2/14: now using df nim damage weights. this brings shadows and PTs to defense minimum. added amr profiles and relic data. using new method for relic calcs where i use stat optima for relic in question. on use shield relic 80 to 100% worse than proc relics. I did not update the slope of squish.

Update 3/10/14: updated damage info and added vanguard self heal info.

Update 3/3/14: had (1-heal_buff) modifier instead of 1/(1+heal_buff) for heals required. updated heals required numbers. Also added slope of squish to better compare TTK to mitigation.

Update 2/29: Corrected spike equation and values to reflect 75/25 split of 90/100% accuracy attacks.

Update 2/28/14b: Used incorrect base value for defense for jugg and pt in relic calc (copy pasted formula from shadow). there were also mix ups between damage debuff and heal bonus for relic dtps. I have added additional equation info at the bottom of the post and fixed those mistakes.

Update 2/28/14a: Set jugg self heals to 1700 every 12 seconds and included 1% heal buff to all classes. Updated numbers for relic mechanics and updated kinetic bulwark equation.

 

 

Here are the new builds for min/maxed (for mitigation) full 81 gear, respecting relic mechanics (post with per boss http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7392656&postcount=20). I assumed that the armor rating for light armor is 3319 and 6267 for heavy armor (I am hoping they will fix this discrepancy soon, since this will make shadows more spiky, relative to the other tanks at future tiers of gear). The shield is 1020, with 1897 defense/absorb/shield coming from relic/stim/gear/augments. I set endurance to 46.3k for shadows/vanguards with the endurance talent (3880 endurance). You can find formulas and disclaimers here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=686677.

I am assuming 6k incoming dps at nim df average damage weights (see bottom). =DM number for relics is the pre mitigation DTPS for which the relic outperforms the dream master reactive warding relic.

 

Thanks to Keyboardninja and Thok-Zeus for collaboration and damage weight info.

 

Right now i am using:

Premitigation incoming dps of 6000 using weights determined by dtps*fight_length

Force scream bubble: 1700 every 12 seconds

vanguard self healing: 120 hps

reactive warding relic heals: 1480 every 43 seconds

kinetic warding: Absorb=-9.1337*p^2+15.887*p-0.9991, where p is chance of shielding an attack (see eqation section for variables). This is assuming a kinetic/energy swing timer of 1.035 seconds

I am not taking enraged defense into consideration at this time. after they nerf it, i will try to determine the hps it contributes.

 

Shadow: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/b528123d-5922-48cd-b97c-96f1db0119a7

Defense 233

Shield 1248

Absorb 1436

total squish 0.28740

relic pre self heals 1724

relic post self heals 1690

relic heals req 1641

damage per HP 3.4794

spike 0.053371514

TTK 27.434

slope of squish: -2.940E-05

 

relic base diff =DM

def proc 0.2874 0.2939 0.0065 5270

abs proc 0.2888 0.2940 0.0051 6696 (d 233 s 1342 a 1342)

 

 

 

jugg: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/3c6108fc-433c-4955-ad17-10f3f7206729

Defense 995

Shield 1020

Absorb 902

total squish 0.30929

relic dtps pre self heal 1856

relic postself heal 1680

relic heal req 1663

damage per HP 3.2333

spike 0.050673555

TTK 26.903

slope of squish: -2.46466E-05

relic base diff =DM

def proc 0.3093 0.3144 0.0051 6684

abs proc 0.3103 0.3144 0.0041 8366 (d 1068 s 1020 a 829)

 

 

PT: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/efb4083b-a229-4421-9123-e383bd8e47d7

Defense 473

Shield 1435

Absorb 1009

total squish 0.29340

relic pre self heals 1760

relic post self heals 1606

relic heals req 1590

damage per HP 3.4083

spike 0.053831259

TTK 28.869

slope of squish: -2.55358E-05

relic base diff =DM

def proc 0.2924 0.2978 0.0054 6423

abs proc 0.2935 0.2979 0.0044 7760 (d 480 s 1468 a 969)

 

 

 

 

 

 

comparing self heals and mitigation: get 2.5% of health every y seconds. assuming we switch out out b mods at 2:1 ratio (can refine this number when gear comes out) we get 2*(10.8*0.025)*x/y = 0.255358e-4*dtps*x, where x is the amount of mitigation traded for 2*x endurance (assuming 8% endruance buff). this gives y = 21140/dtps, so when you plug in dtps, you will see how often you need an aoe attack to make the trade worth it. for aoe heals every 3 seconds, you will no longer want to make the trade if dtps (pre mitigation) is over 7047 dtps.

 

Cool links:

 

 

Ideal Tank Stat Distribution in 2.0: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

Tank Log Analysis Script: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=697124

Exploring Tank Spikiness: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=650473

Tank/heal simulator: https://github.com/kitru/swtor

 

 

 

 

 

Equations:

 

 

 

relic dtps pre self heals (this is what the optimization minimizes):

dps*(1-dd)*[6/23*(1-(0.KW*(1-dr)*(fb*(1-d(rd)-0.1)*(1-s*a)+fn*(1-d(rd))*(1-s*a))+KF*(1-dr)*(1-r)*(1-s*a)+TI*(1-ir)*(1-r))+17/23*(1-(0.KW*(1-dr)*(fb*(1-d-0.1)*(1-s*a)+fn*(1-d)*(1-s*a))+KF*(1-dr)*(1-r)*(1-s*a)+TI*(1-ir)*(1-r))]

 

where d-0.1 from is from 90% accuracy attack, fb is fraction melee/ranged kinetic/energy at 90% accuracy while fn is fraction of melee/ranged kinetic/energy damage incoming at 100% accuracy.

 

dps is incoming pre mitigation dps from the boss

dd is damage debuff from skill

KW is fraction pre mitigation damage from melee/ranged kinetic/energy

KF is fraction pre mitigation damage from force/tech kinetic/energy damage

TI is fraction pre mitigation damage from force/tech internal/elemental damage

dr is damage reduction from armor, to kinetic and energy damage

d is defense fraction

d(rd) is defense fraction with contribution to relic (795 for dread master relic)

s is shield fraction

a is absorb fraction

ir is internal resistance

r is resiatance

 

a similar equation is used for absorb relic calcs.

 

spike: =KW*(fb*(d+0.1)*(0-total_squish)^2+fn*d*(0-total_squish)^2+s*((1-a)*(1-dr)-total_squish)^2+(1-d)*(1-s)*((1-dr)-total_squish)^2)+KF*((1-s)*(1-r)*((1-dr)-total_squish)^2+r*(0-total_squish)^2+s*((1-a)*(1-dr)-total_squish)^2)+TI*(r*(0-total_squish)^2+(1-r)*((1-ir)-total_squish)^2)

 

total squish is dps/(relic dtps pre self heals)

pre armor squish is (KW*fb)*(1-d-0.1)*(1-s*a)+(KW*fn)*(1-d)*(1-s*a)+KF*(1-r)*(1-s*a)*(1-dd)

Damage per HP is 1/(total squish)

TTK=Health/(dtps post relic and self heals)

 

kinetic bulwark math:

p(d,s,r,kw,kf,fb,fn):=1/(kw+kf)*(kf*s*(1-r)+kw*s*(fb*(1-(d+0.1))+fn*(1-d))):

m(T):=floor(20/(T)):

E(n,p):=Summation(piecewise(i<9,(n!)/(i!*(n-i)!)*p^(i)*(1-p)^(n-i)*i,i<15,(n!)/(i!*(n-i)!)*p^(i)*(1-p)^(n-i)*8,15<=i,0),i=1..n):

P(m,p):=piecewise(m>=15,(m!)/(15!*(m-15)!)*p^(15)*(1-p)^(m-15),0):

A(T,p):=piecewise(m(T)<15, 1/(m(T))*Summation(E(n,p),n=1..m(T)),

Summation((Summation(E(n,p),n=1..15+i)* P(15+i,p))/(15+i),i=0..m(T)-15)+((1- Summation(P(n,p),n=15..m(T)))*Summation(E(n,p),n=1 ..m(T)))/(m(T))):

 

where T is swing timer of kinetic/energy damage.

E is expected number of stacks at trial n.

p is probability of shielding

P is probability of getting 15 successes in m trials

A is time weighted absorb contribution due to bulwark stacks.

Using a timer of 1.035 seconds I get a r squared value of 1 for the following equation:

A=-9.1337*p^2+15.887*p-0.9991

 

 

 

Damage weights:

 

 

NiM DF

	
total	m/r	f/t	i/e	m/r fraction	f/t fraction	i/e fraction	DTPS pre mit	Length (s)
Nefra:	1,311,769	1,262,305	0	49,464	0.9623	0.0000	0.0377	7831	167.5068
Draxus:	1,505,085	1,160,618	164,566	179,900	0.7711	0.1093	0.1195	3591	419.1683333
Grob'thok	2,119,520	1,901,628	200,706	20,785	0.8972	0.0947	0.0098	5506	384.9291667
Corruptor	1,566,031	543,282	921,680	101,069	0.3469	0.5885	0.0645	4005	391.0040143
Brontes	1,598,195	578,711	693,210	326,274	0.3621	0.4337	0.2042	3553	449.8218
Overall	8,100,599	5,446,544	1,980,162	677,492	0.6724	0.2444	0.0836	4897	370.0598258

 

HM DF/DP

Boss	m/r k/e	f/t k/e	f/t i/e	length (s)	damage
Nefra	8017.7	0.0	195.6	130	1067738.1
Draxus	2582.1	332.5	303.5	320	1029763.2
Grob'Thok	3933.9	1504.6	0.0	210	1142087.1
Corruptor Zero	977.9	1999.4	255.3	210	678854.4
Brontes	1959.8	948.2	393.5	350	1155535.5
Bestia	2129.5	1488.2	60.7	320	1177097.6
Tyrans	2676.0	1475.9	155.9	210	904633.8
Calphayus	3828.3	119.2	39.1	410	1634481.4
Raptus	2877.0	1517.1	175.5	420	1919232
Council	2894.6	688.1	185.4	470	1771002.3
M/R K/E:  0.718549599
F/T K/E:  0.237947796
F/T I/E:  0.043502605

with 75% of melee/ranged kinetic/energy damage coming at 90% accuracy, and 25% at 100% accuracy)

 

Edited August 6, 2014 by dipstik

[slafko]

I thought that "build" meant "training point allocation".

[THoK-Zeus]

Some stuff:

Your pre armor squish for juggernauts/pts looks wrong for me. In current 78 gear, Juggernauts should have 0,5233 while powertechs should have 0,5247 armor Rating (afaik). If i add your armor rating for 81 gear (6627) for Juggernauts i get 0,545 armor rating.

 

That should also change the spike calculation, as currently Juggernauts are ahead in your calculation, while they have lower total_squish, shield/absorb, armor then powertechs.

Especially as you are not calculating with sonic barrier, which is fine, this result seems weird.

Edited February 28, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[dipstik]

6627 was a typo. i have 6267 in my spreadsheet, which gives 53.14%. but i just extrapolated the armor rating from previous armor ratings since that info wasnt in the mined data that i saw.

 

kinetic resistance=(rating*(1+scalar))/((rating*(1+scalar))+240*55+800)+bonus

 

scalar=76.5, guard stance: 15% armor rating boost, , sorusu form: 61.5% armor rating,

bonus: guardian slash: 3% kinetic/energy resistance, sorusu form:6% kinetic resistance

[THoK-Zeus]

In your calculations you have 55,7% for armor squish for juggernaut tanks. Did that influence the other results in your calculation then or is that just a typo? Edited March 1, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[dipstik]

squish includes resist, defense and all that other stuff.

[THoK-Zeus]

squish includes resist, defense and all that other stuff.

 

Ah, but then from 55,7% (pre armor squish) to 29% squsih means you just calculate with an average of 47,9% armor.

 

With just 4% i/e damage that seems not enough armor for me.

 

Some more insight into that part would be appreciated (i run pretty similar calculations).

Edited March 1, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[dipstik]

updated OP with equations Edited March 1, 2014 by dipstik

[Methoxa]

In comparison to the other tanks the Juggernaut has the highest spikiness and most dtps. Did you include Crushing blow buff ( 4% dmg reduction) and retaliation ( 5% defchance)? Nevertheless great work, thanks. Edited March 1, 2014 by Methoxa

[THoK-Zeus]

In comparison to the other tanks the Juggernaut has the highest spikiness and most dtps. Did you include Crushing blow buff ( 4% dmg reduction) and retaliation ( 5% defchance)? Nevertheless great work, thanks.

 

These values are included (i am pretty sure of this ).

 

The reason for the difference in dtps is that Force Scream's Sonic Barrier is not included in the dtps (it's included in the other sections tough). Without Sonic Barrier juggs have by far the worst mitigation (pretty obvious without having anything similar to 20% shield or 25% absorb talents).

 

You should instead look at the relic heals req. lines (that is the required healing per second after relics and mitigation and Sonic Barrier and all that stuff ):

Assassin: relic heals req 1515.035434

Jugg: relic heal req 1525.809705

PT: relic heals req 1448.689858

 

The PT one is significantly lower because of Shoulder Cannon and a pretty large average of their AoE Heal included. For me it looks like KBN's flat 120 hps for Powertechs.

Edited March 1, 2014 by THoK-Zeus

[dipstik]

juggs are the least spiky. shadows are still more spiky by about 6.5%

 

i tried to make all the things that need to be nailed down obvious in the OP. force scream, PT self heals, new reactive warding amount etc.

 

i will update when nim damage weights are in.

Edited March 1, 2014 by dipstik

[Methoxa]

If you integrated all of you named (de) buffs than sir its an not only a really great post but amazing post, If then opttimized for nm correctly, consider yourself married xD.

 

I srlsy thought the higher the spikiness the less good, but it seems you kinda tunred around that factor, the higher spikiness the higher the protection of spikes are. Therefore i misread the calculations. Happpens when your drunk just waiting for the pts to come online. Foreign language + 2 pomille are kinda hard to fight against in order to write pllain and understandable english ^^

Edited March 2, 2014 by Methoxa

[dipstik]

you had it right. spike is really a type of standard deviation for me. you can basically use squish +/- spike to get a rough estimate of the range of damage you will take. perhaps there is a method of looking at the positive bias only?

 

the link in the OP to my old thread shows all the buffs and skills i take into account.

[mastirkal]

Why is the armor rating a discrepancy and concerning for future tiers? I'm assuming because sins get 0.76% DR increase, but juggy's/pt's get 0.81% DR increase? I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they're planning to raise the level cap in a tier or two. Will it matter if that happens and the tables are "reset" in a way.

 

Aka, how many tiers would you say/guess until it became problematic and will it matter if we see a level increase and thus a "redo" to the DR formula.

Edited March 4, 2014 by mastirkal

[dipstik]

here is what i am extrapolating for armor rating and damage reduction for future gear. these include class buffs to armor, but not the static part from skill points. its a very small creep of 0.1% every 4 tiers.

armor rating

item_level light heavy difference

81 8296 11092 2795

84 8562 11446 2884

87 8827 11800 2972

90 9093 12154 3061

93 9358 12508 3149

96 9624 12862 3238

99 9889 13216 3326

102 10155 13570 3415

105 10420 13924 3503

108 10686 14278 3592

111 10951 14632 3680

114 11217 14986 3769

 

damage reduction

81 0.372091719 0.442046791 0.069955071

84 0.379480758 0.449809024 0.070328265

87 0.386697916 0.457358244 0.070660329

90 0.39374912 0.464703102 0.070953982

93 0.400640031 0.471851784 0.071211753

96 0.407376052 0.478812047 0.071435995

99 0.413962347 0.485591242 0.071628895

102 0.420403854 0.492196346 0.071792491

105 0.426705296 0.498633978 0.071928682

108 0.432871191 0.504910429 0.072039238

111 0.438905866 0.511031676 0.07212581

114 0.444813467 0.517003407 0.07218994

Edited March 5, 2014 by dipstik

[leto_cleon]

Hmm the new PVP Immunity/Sturdiness Enhancement 30Xs are 41 Endurance, 72 Shield, 47 Defence/Absorb. Thats 119 defensive stats vs 111 on the PVE Bastion/Bulwark 31s.

[dipstik]

trying to update these numbers for nim, and make amr builds. need to know how much healing enraged defense does, and a better number for force scream. the nim df average numbers brings shadows and Pts to defense minimum it seems. Edited May 1, 2014 by dipstik

[Lacedemon]

trying to update these numbers for nim, and make amr builds. need to know how much healing enraged defense does, and a better number for force scream. the nim df average numbers brings shadows and Pts to defense minimum it seems.

 

What numbers do you need for that (anything I can provide). When 2.7 was on PTS and Enraged Def was changed Thok/Zahik and I did a quick napkin maths session on mumble off it. IIRC it scales of Bonus healing like Force Scream does (can verify by popping a power adrenal and seeing the tool-tip decrease). It can crit too and from what I could tell it goes off Surge, in addition it is effected by talents like the one in rage increasing Crit damage.

 

Not sure if it will effect your calculations but if you Defend/Resist an attack a stack won't be consumed

Edited May 2, 2014 by Lacedemon

[dipstik]

the equation for the heals it provides would be nice. i also need to know the strength, force power to calc the bonus healing in full 81. since they are changing it to 10 seconds, I have to see if that means that not all charges will be consumed. i might just wait for that, since its only the post sel;f heals number that will be affected,.

[dipstik]

updated OP with amr profile and relic info, using DF NiM numbers. shadows and PTs are at defense minimums. also, the dread master reactive warding relic outperforms the arkanian relic of the same name.

 

here are pre boss calcs for NiM:

 

shadow Nefra: Draxus: Grob'thok Corruptor Brontes

def 1014 746 807 233 233

shield 1020 1020 1020 1251 1251

absorb 883 1151 1090 1433 1433

 

jugg Nefra: Draxus: Grob'thok Corruptor Brontes

def 1522 1280 1336 353 353

shield 1020 1020 1020 1232 1232

absorb 375 617 561 1332 1332

 

PT Nefra: Draxus: Grob'thok Corruptor Brontes

def 1335 947 1057 473 473

shield 1020 1184 1126 1435 1435

absorb 562 786 734 1009 1009

Edited May 2, 2014 by dipstik

[Kadjunga]

very nice work as usual

 

however... isn't it more beneficial to go with the same gearing as you would for nefra, since almost all of the attacks (except for the 3-6 thundering blasts from the guardians) are defensible? All the damage from the dispatchers is internal damage against which you can not defend. hence...

 

draxus, despoilers, dismantlers, guardians -> use only melee / ranged abilites which you can defend against

dispatcher / bulwark -> internal damage attacks which are unshieldable, undefendable

Edited May 5, 2014 by Kadjunga

[dipstik]

you can get a good idea of why the numbers look they way they do from the damage weights in the op.

[Kadjunga]

yes, but in the OP you assumed that the force / tech abilities are shieldable, which clearly they are not and doing so, throws the calculations in to believe, that you need a higher absorb level, to mitigate some of that damage. While in reality, the only way to mitigate the dispatchers damage, is with a damage reduction cooldown.

 

isn't it better just to gear for the abilities that you can do something about, instead of wasting points in absorb for internal damage attacks?

 

 

for instance, if you omit the damage output of the dispatches, then the damage ratios would fall in line more or less exactly like they do on nefra. And those abilities are ones, which you can actually gear for.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Kadjunga

[dipstik]

force/tech kinetic/energy is shieldable. i have also included fraction of damage that is not shieldable, namely internal/elemental.

 

i think what u are saying is that instead of 0.5/0.25/0.25 split for ranged_kinetic/tech_kinetic/tech_internal i use 0.5/(0.5+0.25) and 0.28/(0.5+0.25)

 

lets see what happens when i do that:

 

using 0.8/0.1/0.1 since 0.5 would give defense minimum:

 

Defense 774

Shield 1020

Absorb 1123

 

now using 0.8889 and 0.1111

 

Defense 774

Shield 1020

Absorb 1123

 

 

i get the same answer, because my calcs not try to shield internal/elemental attacks. they do try to resist them though.

Edited May 5, 2014 by dipstik

[Kadjunga]

Actually, what i meant was that in the OP you had listed equal amount of damage taken from F/T and I/E sources. However, the only source for F/T damage in the fight is from the thundering blasts, meaning... some I/E attacks were placed under the F/T table for some odd reason. In torparse, the dispatchers lightning damage shows up under F/T for some reason. However... there is no chance to shield that damage, meaning... it is unmitigatable damage.

 

If you took that into account and threw em in the I/E table instead, the ratios would be :

 

80 / 0.2 / 19.8

 

with the 0.2% being the damage taken from the 2-5 thundering blasts in the fight. But since the threat from those thundering blasts is almost nill, then you could even discard that data as well. Also, if you discarded the damage you can not do anything about, you would arrive at a damage profile, for a tank that is the same as on nefra.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Kadjunga