Bomber counter! (this is not a cry thread)

[Morgrid]

A scout dies in seconds when you manage to get close to him or he gets hit by a railgun. It needs very skillful maneuverability for a scout to evade enemy attacks while circling. For a scout, it's also very difficult or nearly impossible to fight back and get rid of you.

 

A bomber with his insane shield and hull capacity can just circle around for ages, take a lot of hits before he finally dies and he just needs to drop his mines and drones on your face to get rid of you and even your whole squad.

 

Mines and drones still have an activation delay...

[Mallorik]

How much skill does it take to slowly circle a sat? Why is it a more skillful maneuver for a scout than a bomber?

 

LOL really? you don't think theres a difference between having to kill the attackers yourself or just dropping bots that kill them for you?

 

Taking a sat back from 2 scouts can be done with 1 ship, 2 easily. Taking a sat back from 2 bombers takes your entire team.

[Brewski]

A bomber with his insane shield and hull capacity can just circle around for ages, take a lot of hits before he finally dies and he just needs to drop his mines and drones on your face to get rid of you and even your whole squad.

Unless, of course, you develop an anti-bomber strategy similar to the OP's post, or to my point on the group of two gunships that managed to clear a fully fortified bomber pair off a satellite repeatedly with almost no issues.

 

Bombers are like gunships. They require people to *think* to combat them. Good bomber pilots even more so. It's not impossible, or even particularly difficult if you know what you are doing.

 

We have five ship options heading into a match so we can adapt to the opposing teams strategy and ships, so having one build set aside to clear pesky bomber defended positions is not asking too much. In fact, the need to adapt as the battle progresses is part of the appeal to me.

[okiobe]

Best way to counter bombers in domination. Don't let them get to the satellite. If you attack them 5k+ away from the satellite they only have a couple of options (speaking in basic terms), drop their payload far from the satellite to try and kill you or try to tank you until they get to the satellite. Approach them from a right angle and you can usually avoid their first mine. Take one mine hit if you have to after that and then they are dead. Point blank burst lasers make quick work of them (3 shots for shields, 1-2 shots for hull). Targeting telemetry and wingman let me open up from father away making it even easier to kill them.

[Onodrain]

Unless, of course, you develop an anti-bomber strategy similar to the OP's post, or to my point on the group of two gunships that managed to clear a fully fortified bomber pair off a satellite repeatedly with almost no issues.

 

Bombers are like gunships. They require people to *think* to combat them. Good bomber pilots even more so. It's not impossible, or even particularly difficult if you know what you are doing.

 

We have five ship options heading into a match so we can adapt to the opposing teams strategy and ships, so having one build set aside to clear pesky bomber defended positions is not asking too much. In fact, the need to adapt as the battle progresses is part of the appeal to me.

 

Great post!

 

I applaud the OP as well for showing his cards and thinking outside the bun!

 

I play all types of ships. I do best on Gunships in TDM and Bombers in Domination. So I tend to use them. But I still break out my scouts and strikes to keep some semblance of skill up in them.

 

While it can be frustrating to take on satellites with entrenched bombers, it is not impossible. That is the fun for me.

 

As a bomber pilot, I have been on the receiving end of pilots who destroy my shields and hull in a matter of a few seconds. They are great pilots with good load outs. I have also been faced with pilots similar to the OP who shred my shields and hit me with missiles. Also very devastating.

 

There are countermeasures to everything. Learn them.

 

I remember when Microsoft changed their interface for office. The new ribbon interface sucked initially. Once you got over the fact that you were not going back to the old interface and learned the new skills, it was not a big deal. This is much the same. You have pilots who have adapted, pilots still in denial who will adapt in the future, and you have pilots who refuse to adapt and would rather leave the game than adapt. Which one do you want to be?

 

Whilst many games are won in the first few minutes, there are many that are won in the last few minutes as well. I have been in many games recently where the side with 2 sats within the opening 2 minutes did not win. It usually happens when my side has 2-4 non contributors and the other side has none in a domination match with 8 players. What do you do? Let the other team get the victory, but play safe and keep your satellite? Or do you take your slow moving bomber and test the defenses of the other 2 satellites until you break one?

 

I play to have fun and I do. In the above scenario, you can usually break one satellite. Hopefully, one of your teams scouts can defend the satellite you left until your point margin is too high to overcome. Otherwise, I hump it back to the original satellite and take it again for the win.

 

Are there matches where there is such a huge disparity in sides that one completely dominates the other. Yes. But that is the exception and not the rule on my server. And I play thru those matches, trying out new techniques. I take my lumps and move on.

[matthewdbear]

I tried the Thermite(10k upgrade) with Bomber last night I was amazed how I could kill it quickly with the Rockets Pods....

 

Thankyou

Edited February 20, 2014 by matthewdbear
Making my point clearer

[Llama-Eight]

Taking a sat back from 2 scouts can be done with 1 ship, 2 easily. Taking a sat back from 2 bombers takes your entire team.

 

Or, you know, a gunship. Maybe 2...

[Mallorik]

Or, you know, a gunship. Maybe 2...

 

LOL ok I give up, 3 or 4 bombers humping a sat is not game breaking a gunship can clear it all. GSF is flat out doomed and people like you are to blame.

[wingzerokia]

LOL ok I give up, 3 or 4 bombers humping a sat is not game breaking a gunship can clear it all. GSF is flat out doomed and people like you are to blame.

 

If that's your thought process well, you can think that way, and I have no right to tell you other wise, part of the issue with living in a free country...

 

But by the same logic, GSF was doomed right from the get-go... GSF never stood for Galactic Star Fighter, it stood for Gunship Sting Flashfire. Before 2.6 Evasion was horribly broken, 1 Sting or Flashfire could hold a sat against 4 or 5 strike fighters, and butcher them easily with Blaster Overcharge and Burst Lasers (read nearly every Sting or Flashfire was pushing those), while at the same time being nearly un-killable due to distortion field.

 

When points like that were made, all we ever heard from Sting or Flashfire pilots was "QQ" or "L2P", so now that the type 2 scouts are not a "Jack of all trades, master of them all", I hardly find the whining from mediocre type 2 scout pilots about "Bombers are OP" to hold any weight.

 

In their own words, we are not OP L2P.

 

Or here's a novel idea, work in a group to break them off the sat, you know 'cause GSF is a team game after all....

[Brewski]

LOL ok I give up, 3 or 4 bombers humping a sat is not game breaking a gunship can clear it all. GSF is flat out doomed and people like you are to blame.

 

I understand you are frustrated, but the truth is they are not hard to counter, they are just hard to counter flying a Flashfire or Sting. Being a primary Flashfire pilot, I also found them a bit frustrating at first.

 

That said, rather than whinge about it on the forum I decided to fly one myself for a while to see how to counter them. I found that, unlike gunships, I actually can fly a bomber effectively. Although I'm far from the best bomber pilot out there, I think I'm pretty good. Lately, though, it's become increasingly harder to hold a sat with just bombers as people have developed strategies to boot me (and any other bombers) off.

 

In particular, two gunships with Ion's working in concert can easily remove 3-4 bombers by themselves. We have a few very good pairs of gunships doing this on my server. Slightly spaced Ion blasts at the turrets or mines completely clear everything we have placed, along with our shields, engine and weapon power, and at that point bombers are just giant slow moving targets. I've also seen Type 1 Scouts and Pike/Quell pilots using their new toys to great effect.

 

So in turn, I've taken what I learned flying a bomber, and flying against bombers, and started developing my own anti-bomber builds to use against them.

 

In short, bombers seem over powered because they are new and people are still adapting. As people learn how to cope, they will not seem so OP. Maybe there are tweaks needed to them in the same way that there were tweaks needed to Gunships and Type 2 scouts, and if so those will come in time.

 

In the mean time, you face a choice. You can:

1. Continue to fly your Flashfire but learn to adjust your role in the game to avoid bombers. (Hint: Don't rush in at a sat and expect to survive. Either intercept bombers further out or spend you time hunting gunships and coordinating assaults after mines have been cleared.)
   
2. Expand your horizons to include flying other ships that are better suited to hunting bombers. (Maybe even flying a bomber to see how they work, and how people take you down.)
   
3. Continue to do what you've been doing and complain that it won't work.
   
4. Give up completely and just spend your time whinging on the forums.
   

 

While you decide, I'll be playing GSF with everyone else.

[Mallorik]

All these bomber strats might work fine in a rated group game, they do not work at all in a real game. I have flown against teams with 3 bombers on 2 sats, ive used my nova dive, gunship, pike, everything I have. Its an op broken situation and its just another example of something driving people away from GSF.

 

And pre 2.6 yes one flashfire could hold a sat from 3 or 4 guys and I still do regularly, by killing them. But Flashfires have never been op for what they are, they are op for what the other ships aren't and mainly the people that fly them. And people keep going on and on about the evasion nerf, I don't even notice a difference except now I have 6 seconds to head on explode a strike instead of 3.

 

And just for the record, I don't only fly a flashfire, in fact the only time I ever use it is when theres an obvious premade.

 

Anyways, have fun playing gsf with "everyone else" but I hope I don't see you "whinging" on the forums when "everyone else" ends up being you and the rest of the bomber pilots, because I promise that's where its heading right now.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Mallorik

[Sindariel]

Mines and drones still have an activation delay...

 

So what? If they don't explode this round, then they'll explode next round.

 

Unless, of course, you develop an anti-bomber strategy similar to the OP's post, or to my point on the group of two gunships that managed to clear a fully fortified bomber pair off a satellite repeatedly with almost no issues.

 

This may work against newbies, uncoordinated random groups or idiots, but any half-decent team won't just quietly sit there and watch how you clear the satellite. They'll come at you and shred your gunships to pieces or chase you around the map, while the bombers place new mines and drones.

 

And people keep going on and on about the evasion nerf, I don't even notice a difference except now I have 6 seconds to head on explode a strike instead of 3.

 

I didn't really notice a difference after the nerf too, except that i can't evade a railgun shot with Distortion Field anymore.

 

Anyways, have fun playing gsf with "everyone else" but I hope I don't see you "whinging" on the forums when "everyone else" ends up being you and the rest of the bomber pilots, because I promise that's where its heading right now.

 

Exactly. In the past 2 weeks, a lot of good scout and strike fighter pilots on my server have mostly quit with GSF. They still do their dailies, but nothing beyond.

Challenging matches have become very rare. Most of them are horribly boring, because everyone is flying around in a bomber or gunship. Even deathmatches are now plaqued with them.

Their gunships camp somewhere on the map and their bombers place their drones and mines around to protect them. Booooring...

 

I'm slowly loosing interest, too.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Sindariel

[Phatbeard]

Sorry I don't want to learn to play against a domination map with 3 or 4 noobs on each sat slowly circling it dropping off mines and turrets when ever their cd is up. I'll just stop playing it like everyone else is doing.

 

The real problem is that there is no cap to the number of bombers you can have in a match. So, once a team secures two turrets there's absolutely no reason--given current mechanics--that everyone else shouldn't switch to bombers and gunships and just lock them down. There's absolutely nothing that can be done about 4-5 bombers circling a sat covered by gunships. It's game over.

 

If BW were to limit bombers to say 2-3 per match, things would open up quite a bit.

[Mallorik]

The real problem is that there is no cap to the number of bombers you can have in a match. So, once a team secures two turrets there's absolutely no reason--given current mechanics--that everyone else shouldn't switch to bombers and gunships and just lock them down. There's absolutely nothing that can be done about 4-5 bombers circling a sat covered by gunships. It's game over.

 

If BW were to limit bombers to say 2-3 per match, things would open up quite a bit.

 

Limiting bombers per match would be hard, people would fight and cry and that's not good. I think maybe limiting the number of mines/drones in an area might work though. like you cant have 2 seismic mines within so many meters of eachother, or maybe even so many meters from anything including a sat, after all what moron would set a mine 10 feet from the thing hes trying to protect?

[ptwonline]

I understand you are frustrated, but the truth is they are not hard to counter, they are just hard to counter flying a Flashfire or Sting. Being a primary Flashfire pilot, I also found them a bit frustrating at first.

 

That said, rather than whinge about it on the forum I decided to fly one myself for a while to see how to counter them. I found that, unlike gunships, I actually can fly a bomber effectively. Although I'm far from the best bomber pilot out there, I think I'm pretty good. Lately, though, it's become increasingly harder to hold a sat with just bombers as people have developed strategies to boot me (and any other bombers) off.

.

 

The problem is that any semi-competent team will chase off anyone attacking a bomber, and even if you manage to beat them by the time you do the bomber has squirted out their full complement of mines/drones. And before you can kill those? The bombers' cover is back and you're back to square one.

 

Most Dom games I see are over with the initial caps.

[Brewski]

The problem is that any semi-competent team will chase off anyone attacking a bomber, and even if you manage to beat them by the time you do the bomber has squirted out their full complement of mines/drones. And before you can kill those? The bombers' cover is back and you're back to square one.

 

Most Dom games I see are over with the initial caps.

 

That was true a week ago, but people are learning to cope. When playing a bomber, I get shot off sats pretty frequently. When playing my scout, I help shoot them off frequently. (So long as I don't dive in before the initial clear.) I fly my gunship, I still suck no matter what mode I'm in. (I just can't get the hang of gunship.) Granted nodes don't change hands as frequently as they used to, but that's changing as well.

 

People play one night against something new they can't instantly beat and rather than try to find out how, they throw their hands up and declare the game broken beyond repair. Completely ignoring all evidence to the contrary, and refusing to try anything people suggest to adapt, instead making excuses for why it won't work and isn't worth trying.

 

If we swapped the word "bomber" with "gunship" in most of these posts, they'd fit in the forums a few weeks ago. (Or "Flashfire/Sting" if you flew a gunship.) The specifics change, the complaining stays the same.

 

Anyway, I'm logging in to go play GSF now. Catch you all here in the morning...

[ptwonline]

That was true a week ago, but people are learning to cope. When playing a bomber, I get shot off sats pretty frequently. When playing my scout, I help shoot them off frequently. (So long as I don't dive in before the initial clear.) I fly my gunship, I still suck no matter what mode I'm in. (I just can't get the hang of gunship.) Granted nodes don't change hands as frequently as they used to, but that's changing as well.

 

People play one night against something new they can't instantly beat and rather than try to find out how, they throw their hands up and declare the game broken beyond repair. Completely ignoring all evidence to the contrary, and refusing to try anything people suggest to adapt, instead making excuses for why it won't work and isn't worth trying.

 

If we swapped the word "bomber" with "gunship" in most of these posts, they'd fit in the forums a few weeks ago. (Or "Flashfire/Sting" if you flew a gunship.) The specifics change, the complaining stays the same.

 

Anyway, I'm logging in to go play GSF now. Catch you all here in the morning...

 

It's still true. First team with 2 sats and bombers on them wins unless they are incompetent. It's just too easy to support a sat under attack because it takes too long to clear a bomber, it's mines/drones, the guns, and then actually cap. Support can come from across the map, or respawns can get there easily. It's only if a bomber has been left alone and 3+ enemies decide to hit him at once where it might flip.

 

Even strong teams vs weak...whatever sats you cap to start you almost always keep til the end of the game. Strong teams don't bother the third because they know they have the game won and it's too hard to cap that third sat.

 

And no, bombers and GS are different issues. GS gets kills but generally cannot hold sats. Bombers make it too hard to take sats. GS dominate the death matches.

Edited February 21, 2014 by ptwonline

[Mallorik]

That was true a week ago, but people are learning to cope. When playing a bomber, I get shot off sats pretty frequently. When playing my scout, I help shoot them off frequently. (So long as I don't dive in before the initial clear.) I fly my gunship, I still suck no matter what mode I'm in. (I just can't get the hang of gunship.) Granted nodes don't change hands as frequently as they used to, but that's changing as well.

 

People play one night against something new they can't instantly beat and rather than try to find out how, they throw their hands up and declare the game broken beyond repair. Completely ignoring all evidence to the contrary, and refusing to try anything people suggest to adapt, instead making excuses for why it won't work and isn't worth trying.

 

If we swapped the word "bomber" with "gunship" in most of these posts, they'd fit in the forums a few weeks ago. (Or "Flashfire/Sting" if you flew a gunship.) The specifics change, the complaining stays the same.

 

Anyway, I'm logging in to go play GSF now. Catch you all here in the morning...

 

I don't throw my hands up when I encounter something new, I find a way to beat it. Im raising this red flag because its game breaking, it will turn people off of this game. The stuff youre talking about with coordinated attacks on bomber infested sats is all fine and dandy for group vs group play but this game does not have that yet. I get it, you love your bomber but is it worth the game?

[Morgrid]

So what? If they don't explode this round, then they'll explode next round.

 

You could always shoot them.

 

But I guess that would be too hard and would require you not having tunnel vision...

[Llama-Eight]

All these bomber strats might work fine in a rated group game, they do not work at all in a real game.

What rated group games would those be? The ones that you can't queue for?

 

I have flown against teams with 3 bombers on 2 sats, ive used my nova dive, gunship, pike, everything I have. Its an op broken situation and its just another example of something driving people away from GSF.

Then apparently you need to try a bit harder to find a way to beat it (to quote your own words).

 

I don't throw my hands up when I encounter something new, I find a way to beat it. Im raising this red flag because its game breaking, it will turn people off of this game.

 

And pre 2.6 yes one flashfire could hold a sat from 3 or 4 guys and I still do regularly, by killing them. But Flashfires have never been op for what they are, they are op for what the other ships aren't

That's just semantics.

 

If you want more balanced games, come over to the Red Eclipse, our GSF games are far more varied, sometimes I'm on the 3-cap side & sometimes I'm on the 3-capped side & that won' t be because we have more or less bombers/gunships in our matches, or that our ships have different stats to yours, but I think because our players are more evenly matched in skill (& possibly in greater numbers, so it's not always one or two very good groups on at any one time) and that's what makes me think that it's not a ship balance problem (ion railgun lovetaps applying the full energy reduction notwithstanding) but a player problem. People either aren't willing or aren't able to learn.

 

When someone says that a co-ordinated team are driving off their ships that are attacking a node guarded by bombers, where are your team mates? If the other side has more ships at the node you're pushing that means they have fewer elsewhere & the rest of your team can push another node. If you have a numerically superior force coming towards you, that means they're not defending one of the other nodes, so you can either reinforce where you are or do what they are doing & attack in force a different node.

[Brewski]

I get it, you love your bomber but is it worth the game?

Actually, I much prefer (and more often fly) my Flashfire. I just don't spend my time complaining that it's no longer the best option in all situations, and I am willing to fly other ships when I need to for my team.

 

You seem to have an unhealthy fixation on the idea that anyone defending bombers must only fly bombers. I have been a long time defender of gunships too, and yet I rarely fly one because, well, I stink at them. I do fly bombers, but it's about third on my list in terms of frequency.

 

Also for the record I almost always solo queue or queue with one friend, and I almost never have voice chat fired up, and yet we still manage to coordinate. It's not impossible, it just takes patience and a willingness to try.

 

If there's a big problem facing GSF, it's not bombers (or gunships or scouts), it's matchmaking. That's where the real problem is, and where Bioware needs to focus their attention. The reason bombers rack up an impressive kill count is that newer players spend all their time flying straight in one at a time. Gunships can get large counts the same way. Seasoned players playing against seasoned players learn how to counter both, and are doing so. With better matchmaking, you wouldn't have so many two-ship pilots suiciding on satellites, because those satellites would be defended by other noobs instead of by veterans.

 

So to Bioware: I say fix matchmaking first, and continue tweaking balance on ships the way you have been, and we'll be good to go.

 

Tto the OP: I'm glad you were able to find an effective anti-bomber strategy that works for you, and than you for sharing. I'm sorry your thread turned into yet another bomber complaint thread, and I apologize for my part in that.

[Sindariel]

You could always shoot them.

 

But I guess that would be too hard and would require you not having tunnel vision...

 

Which 90% of all GSF players have.

 

If you want more balanced games, come over to the Red Eclipse, our GSF games are far more varied, ...

 

Great, that your server has such balanced matches and a lot of skilled players, but not every server is so blessed like yours. Yet, the other servers want to have fun too.

[Mallorik]

Actually, I much prefer (and more often fly) my Flashfire. I just don't spend my time complaining that it's no longer the best option in all situations, and I am willing to fly other ships when I need to for my team.

 

You seem to have an unhealthy fixation on the idea that anyone defending bombers must only fly bombers. I have been a long time defender of gunships too, and yet I rarely fly one because, well, I stink at them. I do fly bombers, but it's about third on my list in terms of frequency.

 

Also for the record I almost always solo queue or queue with one friend, and I almost never have voice chat fired up, and yet we still manage to coordinate. It's not impossible, it just takes patience and a willingness to try.

 

If there's a big problem facing GSF, it's not bombers (or gunships or scouts), it's matchmaking. That's where the real problem is, and where Bioware needs to focus their attention. The reason bombers rack up an impressive kill count is that newer players spend all their time flying straight in one at a time. Gunships can get large counts the same way. Seasoned players playing against seasoned players learn how to counter both, and are doing so. With better matchmaking, you wouldn't have so many two-ship pilots suiciding on satellites, because those satellites would be defended by other noobs instead of by veterans.

 

So to Bioware: I say fix matchmaking first, and continue tweaking balance on ships the way you have been, and we'll be good to go.

 

Tto the OP: I'm glad you were able to find an effective anti-bomber strategy that works for you, and than you for sharing. I'm sorry your thread turned into yet another bomber complaint thread, and I apologize for my part in that.

 

Where have I ever complained flashfires were not the best option? Hell in the past I argued that strike fighters needed a buff to hulls, shields and weapon damage to compete with agile scouts. I complained that these current match wrecking imbalances are killing gsf , but I guess we will see who is right soon enough.

[Mallorik]

What rated group games would those be? The ones that you can't queue for?.

 

Exactly.

[Slivovidze]

Guys, guys. Stop crying around the thread that I intended to start as an optimistic chat about killing bombers with underrated weapons.

 

Bomber = easy kill for anyone competent.

There is ONE issue with bombers. That is, their pets don't respect LoS and evasion. As soon as they learn the rules, there will be literally nothing legit anyone can rage about.

If you can't kill a bomber, you are not thinking enough and just want a mindless action. Sorry, seems like the meta shifted a bit from that.

 

NovaDive: Bomber dies, no matter if I use my loadout with or without Thermites. With a ship this agile, don't tell me that you can't shoot a bomber from behind for 10 seconds. Plus we have the "weak" and "useless" tools like said Thermites or EMP. Try actually using them with your brains turned on.

Flashfire: Are you saying that this insane damage dealer can't deal enough damage? Ha ha. Be it clusters or bursts or the whole blaster overcharge thingy, if you can shoot straight for 10 seconds the bomber goes down.

Star Guard: Ion cannons. 6k range brutal hitting heavy laser. Protorps. How can you not kill a nearly static brick?

Pike: Ion missiles. EMP missiles. Protorps. You have so many can openers that you may die because you spend too much time choosing which to use.

 

Most of the recently useless and ridiculous components found their use when bombers came. You just have to get your nuts together and try something new, different. Experiment.

 

The bomber drops its pets? Oh dear, how do we solve that. Tried shooting the pets? Mines die in instant hit with anything, and drones don't hold much longer. Hint: If you are hunting one, try flying straight behind him. As he drops his stuff, you just destroy it on the fly.

The bomber has friends? Well, it must suck to be in a 1v8 or 1v12 fight. Or, you could, like, mobilize your team. What an unheard of strategy.

 

Seriously. I have killed more bombers than bombers killed me. And I use Nova with "lulz" experiment loadouts, like EMP with Sabo probe, or Thermites and the Sensor beacon, everytime with an Engine power converter.

 

Of course, there are always going to be strategies that are very hard to counter, and they will usually include FotM ships. Two gunships give me about as much trouble as two bombers. Or a couple of some agile ships around a sat? Also a tricky fight, if the pilots are good.

Of course, when there are 5 bombers in enemy team, the game will be eww boring and frustrating, possibly for both teams. But the same situation occurs if there are 5 gunships. Only classes that can come in any count are scouts and fighters, a.k.a. the actual fun, fighting classes. If they gave us a game mode that benefits scouts and fighters, or even disquallifies bombers and gunships overally, that would be the best mode ever, hands down. Sadly the game developed another direction.

 

Lastly, look at it this way: We all hate the enemy bombers. Their sure-hit pets. Their minefields. But we do love the safe haven that we get from our own bombers. Repair drone, ammo refill, and some defenses around while I recharge, it is good to come home. Let's destroy enemy homes and protect ours!

Edited February 21, 2014 by Slivovidze