Beniboybling Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) This, although I don't recall anyone here using them as if they were the same person. ...But anyway, yes, they are different to one another and shouldn't be used as the same guy.Well as you can see in the current list Starkiller only takes up one spot. Really I just feel considering their abilities and style are identical, we are in a position compile them, as I'm sure there is no question that their abilities are so marginal, it would be impossible to sandwich any names between them. If it means posting it as #? Starkiller + Starkiller Clone then I'm happy to do that, I just don't want it to fill space. Its not necessarily treating them as one person, but merely having all iterations of Starkiller under one banner. Though it could be argued under the height of power rule that Starkiller II replaces Starkiller, like Jacen Solo replaces Caedus, Anakin replaces Vader etc. etc. even though they are technically different people. Edited January 1, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Ah I see what your referring to, I was thinking we could limit the list of candidates to three, and demand extensive reasoning and even comparison before they are selected, as opposed to one line suggestions. Basically how we usually operate, but in this case as you suggest a lot more refined. Basically your method, it should work well. One thing though, in regards to the comparison, I think a final verdict should be refrained on, as well as verdicts on the categories, just give an unbiased assessment of their abilities in the context of these fields, and then debate conclusions with everyone, that would avoid the decision being too insulated, and a verdict being preemptive. Perhaps to streamline it even more, should we debate the categories step by step? E.g. Start with Control, work our way down to Alter, making a Council verdict on each category, before making an overall verdict. That could work, though it depends on how you want to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 What about you, Sel? Any ideas on streamlining the placement process? I'd rather we not get bogged down in debates that go on for 100s of posts. So any more ideas would be welcome, especially from a Council member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 What about you, Sel? Any ideas on streamlining the placement process? I'd rather we not get bogged down in debates that go on for 100s of posts. So any more ideas would be welcome, especially from a Council member. Sorry, had a hangover all day and am now way too tired to think about it I'll have a look at everything tomorrow I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Sorry, had a hangover all day and am now way too tired to think about it I'll have a look at everything tomorrow I think. Sounds fun. Alright, sounds good. Edit: Whenever's good for you, Sel. Though, the sooner we get this stuff set up, the sooner we can start it. Hopefully. Edited January 2, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Well as you can see in the current list Starkiller only takes up one spot. Really I just feel considering their abilities and style are identical, we are in a position compile them, as I'm sure there is no question that their abilities are so marginal, it would be impossible to sandwich any names between them. If it means posting it as #? Starkiller + Starkiller Clone then I'm happy to do that, I just don't want it to fill space. Its not necessarily treating them as one person, but merely having all iterations of Starkiller under one banner. Though it could be argued under the height of power rule that Starkiller II replaces Starkiller, like Jacen Solo replaces Caedus, Anakin replaces Vader etc. etc. even though they are technically different people. Starkiller is way more powerful than Galen, he was able to shield half a frigate on re-entry into a planet. That is an incredible feat and much better than anything Galen did. Dueling wise though, I think Galen > Starkiller...although that isn't saying much as neither were very spectacular duelists. Edited January 2, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I wouldn't say Starkiller is way more powerful than Galen. Then again, it's been a while since I read the TFU II novel. Galen's pretty OP (like, OCW levels) in the first one, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) I wouldn't say Starkiller is way more powerful than Galen. Then again, it's been a while since I read the TFU II novel. Galen's pretty OP (like, OCW levels) in the first one, though. Not really, he's ok, but he's not OP. Also... A trembling shape up and to his left chose that moment to give way, showering molten fragments all along the spine of the ship. The primary array was no great loss: he couldn't have heard anyone anyway over the racket in his ears. But the forward turbolasers and primary sensor unit, the next two chunks to go, were more of a concern. The ship was seriously unbalanced now. It shuddered underfoot, pulling wildly in different directions. If he was going to prevent it slipping into an uncontrollable rumble or rearing apart, he had to act quickly and decisively. This was where it got difficult. He needed to maintain the Force shield against the sort of heat he might find in the outer layers of a star. He also had to keep in mind the target ahead-a target he couldn't see through the plasma, but had to hit square-on or else the planetary shield generators wouldn't fail. No matter what happened, he had to fly straight. - Taken from TFU 2 novel. Force shielding against the heat that would be found on the outer layers of a star. Yeah....that's pretty powerful. Edited January 2, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Not really, he's ok, but he's not OP. Also... Force shielding against the heat that would be found on the outer layers of a star. Yeah....that's pretty powerful. He is, though. Trust me on that one. But, yeah, that's pretty powerful. Anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) He is, though. Trust me on that one. But, yeah, that's pretty powerful. Anything else? What says he was OP? Eh, nothing else really that jumps out no. On a note, we need to stop throwing the word OP around because for the most part, characters aren't OP. OP would mean they would be unbeatable, or just know everything about everything which isn't the case with just about every character. Edited January 2, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 What says he was OP? Eh, nothing else really that jumps out no. Well, after reading the TFU novel, his feats are pretty impressive, like destroying hundreds of enemies with a wave of his hand despite being exhausted, potential to rip apart a Star Destroyer, stuff like that. I'll grab some quotes if you're interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Well, after reading the TFU novel, his feats are pretty impressive, like destroying hundreds of enemies with a wave of his hand despite being exhausted, potential to rip apart a Star Destroyer, stuff like that. I'll grab some quotes if you're interested. I'm not recalling the hundreds of enemies or ripping apart a Star Destroyer, especially when he nearly died just to slightly tip an already falling one. That and having trouble with Imperial Shadow Guardsmen...along with everyone else. But sure, i'll take some quotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I'm not recalling the hundreds of enemies or ripping apart a Star Destroyer, especially when he nearly died just to slightly tip an already falling one. That and having trouble with Imperial Shadow Guardsmen...along with everyone else. But sure, i'll take some quotes. OK, here's some quotes. What it felt, he felt, too, and even a small acceleration had a profound effect of such a large scale. It resisted with all the momentum it possessed. Hatches swung open; rivets popped; bulkheads twisted; pipes burst. The Star Destroyer didn't appear to have moved much in the sky. It was still coming in low on the horizon, aiming to pass over him and strafe him from above. He shifted his hand a second time, but instead of changing its course he mistakenly gave it a slight tumble. He needed to apply the Force the right way for this to work, taking the growing forces of friction and the shifting of its center of gravity into account. A spinning Star Destroyer would do more damage than one burying itself nose-first into the cannon and its superstructure. Damage was good, when it came to destroying the Emperor's handiwork, but too much damage could destroy him and perhaps the Rogue Shadow as well under a deadly rain of molten shrapnel. Bring it down in one piece, he told himself. Bring it down hard. He also alters its trajectory several times throughout. Of course, the act left him drained completely from the sheer level of exertion. Next quote! It was already over, but the Core still had some fight left. Hundreds of slave droids converged on the apprentice, hoping to crush him under their combined weight before he could reach the nearest processor. He blew them away with a single push and slashed open the processor's casing. So, yeah, 200 or more enemies with one attack. And that was after the Star Destroyer and PROXY fight. One more quote I found real quick. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross. Pretty powerful, I guess. There is another quote of his throwing TIEs that I can find if that isn't enough. Also, there is a quote in the novel that states that Galen grew more powerful with each mission, so I feel the only fight that is a true representation of his abilities is the fight with Vader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 That's nice, but still I feel Starkiller withstanding and staying conscious throughout while shielding half a frigate against heat comparable to that of a star is better. As the Star Destroyer thing was, it knocked him out afterwards. It's great, but he didn't move it all that much, I just feel Starkiller's feat is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) That's nice, but still I feel Starkiller withstanding and staying conscious throughout while shielding half a frigate against heat comparable to that of a star is better. As the Star Destroyer thing was, it knocked him out afterwards. It's great, but he didn't move it all that much, I just feel Starkiller's feat is better. I don't recall him getting knocked out. If he did, he wasn't out for long. Edit: I'm not saying Galen's better, I'm just saying Starkiller isn't so much more powerful than he is. Edited January 2, 2015 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Considering that Starkiller II was defeated by Vader I wouldn't say he was considerably more powerful, or he would have overwhelmed and defeated Vader quite handily. However I still think we could just have the Clone replace him. Also, another thing, feats on Darth Caedus? I feel we are in desperate need of info, practically everything I have is second hand, Wookieepedia is of much use so I expect there is a lot I'm missing and things that are inaccurate. So anyone with the Legacy of Force series wanna do a quick recon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I'd agree that Galen and the clone should be the same. They are fundamentally the same person, in the same way that Vader and Anakin are the same despite Vader being as much cyborg as he is human. As for ideas on streamlining, I think comparing Control/Sense/Alter might take a long time if done for all 3 candidates, but at the same time people seem to take Alter feats far more seriously than sense, which I find foolish. So yes, I'd agree that we do all three, but not to streamline to process. It'll make it more accurate, not faster. I'm not sure who's argument for streamlining I like more out of Aurbere and Beni's, so thoughts anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I'm still not sure we should use Galen and Starkiller as one. Because they aren't one individual. Anyway, the writing the comparisons and discussing them is going to take a long time no matter what. I feel, though, that if we take a step-by-step approach, it will help us get to the comparisons quicker. Who knows how long the debates will take, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I'm still not sure we should use Galen and Starkiller as one. Because they aren't one individual. Anyway, the writing the comparisons and discussing them is going to take a long time no matter what. I feel, though, that if we take a step-by-step approach, it will help us get to the comparisons quicker. Who knows how long the debates will take, though. Not one individual, but they are the same person. There is a difference. To be honest, even if they should be two separate people, having them both on the list basically just makes It "Top 9" not "Top 10". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Not one individual, but they are the same person. There is a difference. To be honest, even if they should be two separate people, having them both on the list basically just makes It "Top 9" not "Top 10". I guess that's true. Well, if the two of you want to do this, then I'm fine with it. I think I've been outvoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 If we are doing a force users top ten, it may be somewhat prudent to post a full list each and see how much we differ or comply with one another, here is mine: 1.Luke Skywalker 2.Darth Sidious 3.Sith Emperor 4.Darth Caedus 5.Master Yoda 6.Exar Kun or Revan 7.Exar Kun or Revan 8.Mother Talzin or Darth Plagueis 9.Mother Talzin or Darth Plagueis 10.Darth Traya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) I'd agree that Galen and the clone should be the same. They are fundamentally the same person, in the same way that Vader and Anakin are the same despite Vader being as much cyborg as he is human. As for ideas on streamlining, I think comparing Control/Sense/Alter might take a long time if done for all 3 candidates, but at the same time people seem to take Alter feats far more seriously than sense, which I find foolish. So yes, I'd agree that we do all three, but not to streamline to process. It'll make it more accurate, not faster. I'm not sure who's argument for streamlining I like more out of Aurbere and Beni's, so thoughts anyone?Well as I say if we just treat the clone as Starkillers replacement, like Vader replaces Anakin, then really we are just dealing with one individual. And yeah its more a question of efficiency and order, than speed, so I'd agree. And our plans are pretty much the same I think, we have a general discussion, comparison and presentation of feats to decide a maximum of three candidates, the Council confers in private and draws up a comparison. We then present that comparison and step by step reach conclusions on Control, Sense then Alter before making a final decision. I'd also suggest we implement some kind of tracking mechanism on the OP so folks and keep tabs and jump in. Edited January 2, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Well as I say if we just treat the clone as Starkillers replacement, like Vader replaces Anakin, then really we are just dealing with one individual. And yeah its more a question of efficiency and order, than speed, so I'd agree. And our plans are pretty much the same I think, we have a general discussion, comparison and presentation of feats to decide a maximum of three candidates, the Council confers in private and draws up a comparison. We then present that comparison and step by step reach conclusions on Control, Sense then Alter before making a final decision. I'd also suggest we implement some kind of tracking mechanism on the OP so folks and keep tabs and jump in. Do an info box like for the Kaggath, and mark posts where we start discussion on each particular placement. Also put comparisons in it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 If we are doing a force users top ten, it may be somewhat prudent to post a full list each and see how much we differ or comply with one another, here is mine: 1.Luke Skywalker 2.Darth Sidious 3.Sith Emperor 4.Darth Caedus 5.Master Yoda 6.Exar Kun or Revan 7.Exar Kun or Revan 8.Mother Talzin or Darth Plagueis 9.Mother Talzin or Darth Plagueis 10.Darth Traya I can't say I agree here, Rayla. My list would be rather different. I'm not entirely sure on what it would look like, but it would be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 If we are doing a force users top ten, it may be somewhat prudent to post a full list each and see how much we differ or comply with one another, here is mine: 1.Luke Skywalker 2.Darth Sidious 3.Sith Emperor 4.Darth Caedus 5.Master Yoda 6.Exar Kun or Revan 7.Exar Kun or Revan 8.Mother Talzin or Darth Plagueis 9.Mother Talzin or Darth Plagueis 10.Darth TrayaI suppose it can't hurt, though I'll be avoiding this for the thread proper. 1. Luke Skywalker 2. Darth Sidious 3. Yoda 4. Darth Caedus 5. Sith Emperor 6. Darth Plagueis 7. Starkiller Clone 8. Darth Vader 9. Revan 10. Exar Kun I haven't finished SoR though, so I'm just guessing with Revan really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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