The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

[Beniboybling]

2- Dooku. Yoda. Skywalker. Kenobi. All 4 of these have shattered Ventress' force barriers. Skywalker and Kenobi with force pushes, force chokes. Dooku with force lightning on Vjun, Serroco and on his flagship. Yoda on the moon of Toydaria.

Oh wait, Savage did it too.

 

You yourself have said that some Jedi/Sith simply lack strong Force barriers, Ventress is one of these people.

 

3- You missed the point of that, but OK.

 

4- Malgus and Vader used Dark Rage, and it was more of a pain killer not healing. They never healed their own wounds as well as Traya or others, they just shrugged off the pain and healed themselves later. Noting I also said amongst Sith, Jaina Solo is not a Sith, she also didnt stand up to Traya's abilities.

I was referring to more Hanharr and Tobin than Herself. But one should note that she also was presumed dead by Sion and Nihilus, she brought herself so close to death that she feigned it, only to re-heal her own wounds and escape. Let's also not forget he whole "I can heal my own eyesight" or the Severed hand.

 

5-

 

Right....

 

Mmk.

 

1. As I said, it is far from her most impressive feat. Lets just be clear here that Force pushes don't count, that's kinetic energy your witnessing, and Anakin only Force choked Ventress after slamming her into a wall hard enough to leave a crack, and even then we have no idea if he actually be able to kill her without her breaking free.

 

Force Lightning, if that what is was, on a dark side nexus, is a totally different story. What we do know however is that Dooku can't kill Ventress with his Force Lightning and that Force Lightning is very difficult to defend against in general, anyone struck by Force lightning is going to feel the pain, but that doesn't mean he can choke her to death.

 

And of course Yoda, as I said. For Savage is the same situation as Anakin, unless we are suggesting Savage can actually choke Dooku to death? That seems very unlikely to me. Simply put these are not on the same scale.

 

But as I said, it is far from her most impressive feat. On top of that Anakin and Dooku are both likely more powerful than Windu and perhaps even Jaina so its not exactly an argument in there favour. I accept Vader is capable of this.

 

And I did, but I have since changed by mind. It makes little sense unless you are a Juyo practioner of otherwise putting all your energy into your Force attacks etc. at the expense of your barriers, Ventress did not do this.

 

2. I'm sure that your point was that in some cases folks have uber powerful abilities because of knowledge and understanding and as I explained Fay is not one of these whereas Traya clearly is, its not a valid comparison.

 

3. I agree that Sith applications of "healing" don't seem to work that well, but we are still witnessing immense amounts of energy being poured into a person i.e. Control. But this is irrelevant, I was merely pointing out an inconsistency here, the fact of the matter is none of them match Fay's powers. Traya says in regards to Tobin "the wound is not a mortal one", that seems to hint to me that if it was Traya wouldn't be able to heal him.

 

5. All right, you got me there. But I guess what I meant there is that character statements are not official statements such as the kind you find in source books. But they were still said within canonical works so can't ignored.

 

But as I said, they are not the be all and end all, else I wouldn't be bothering with this discussion.

[Selenial]

*cough* Fixed *cough*

 

 

http://youtu.be/MhnY8pU3rFc?t=20s

[Wolfninjajedi]

On top of that Anakin and Dooku are both likely more powerful than Windu

 

They are.

 

Also Beni you said character statements aren't canon, but then you say that Obi-Wan's word about Fey is ok to use?

Edited June 28, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

They are.

 

Also Beni you said character statements aren't canon, but then you say that Obi-Wan's word about Fey is ok to use?

I said a while back that they are not canon (by the way that's not me dictating rules, I'm talking about the facts of canon right now) but by that I mean that they are not official statements like the kind you find in sourcebooks. But they are not non-canon in the sense not relevant, they are totally relevant, and I believe that as long as we have no reason to doubt them, we should hold it to be true. But opinions and opinions, so its not gospel, and I don't treat it as such.

 

And this is how I would prefer character statement to be used in this project.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

I said a while back that they are not canon (by the way that's not me dictating rules, I'm talking about the facts of canon right now) but by that I mean that they are not official statements like the kind you find in sourcebooks. But they are not non-canon in the sense not relevant, they are totally relevant, and I believe that as long as we have no reason to doubt them, we should hold it to be true. But opinions and opinions, so its not gospel, and I don't treat it as such.

 

And this is how I would prefer character statement to be used in this project.

 

Ok so then we should believe Ferus Olin who thinks Vader near Yoda's speed, who has seen the likes of him, Obi-Wan and Anakin move. When we know that Vader doesn't have the feats to suggest he is as fast.

 

You could apply this to Fey, her one appearance I don't think puts her near Yoda without other sufficient evidence.

 

But if you're insisting on it...ok.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Ok so then we should believe Ferus Olin who thinks Vader is as fast as Yoda, who has seen the likes of him, Obi-Wan and Anakin move. When we know that Vader doesn't have the feats to suggest he is as fast.

 

You could apply this to Fey, her one appearance I don't think puts her near Yoda without other sufficient evidence.

If I recall he states that he have never seen anyone move so fast aside from Yoda. I don't think that should mean or should be taken to mean that he was as fast as Yoda. Nor do we know if this guy has seen Windu or Anakin move before and speed is a pretty difficult thing to accurately guage in the heat of battle.

 

On top of that, Vader is not as fast as Yoda.

 

So yeah, I would definitely have reason to doubt that quote.

 

But what reasons exactly do we have to doubt that Kenobi is not telling the truth? And he is pretty clear on it.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

If I recall he states that he have never seen anyone move so fast aside from Yoda. I don't think that should mean or should be taken to mean that he was as fast as Yoda. Nor do we know if this guy has seen Windu or Anakin move before and speed is a pretty difficult thing to accurately guage in the heat of battle.

 

On top of that, Vader is not as fast as Yoda.

 

So yeah, I would definitely have reason to doubt that quote.

 

But what reasons exactly do we have to doubt that Kenobi is not telling the truth? And he is pretty clear on it.

 

He has seen Anakin move, he's been with him on several missions.

 

Yes which is what I'm saying here for Fay, were suppose to go off of one character statement and one appearance for Fay and just assume she is on Yoda's level?

 

But let's just move on...already made up your mind, so next!

Edited June 28, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

He has seen Anakin move, he's been with him on several missions.

 

Yes which is what I'm saying here for Fay, were suppose to go off of one character statement and one appearance for Fay and just assume she is on Yoda's level?

 

But let's just move on...already made up your mind, so next!

Well that was kinda dumb of me to say considering Vader = Anakin. Guess Vader is faster than Anakin then!

 

So given he hasn't seen Windu in Vaapad form, I'd say he certainly thinks he's telling the truth.

 

Did I ever say that? Nope nope.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well that was kinda dumb of me to say considering Vader = Anakin. Guess Vader is faster than Anakin then!

 

So given he hasn't seen Windu in Vaapad form, I'd say he certainly thinks he's telling the truth.

 

Did I ever say that? Nope nope.

 

Windu using Vaapad doesn't give him any real big advantage, otherwise he would be able to do more than just stalemate(and sometimes lose) to Dooku and stalemate Sora and Ventress. The only amp that Windu has ever received for Vaapad is his fight with Sidious, which was a specific instance and not consistent.

 

Anakin is actually faster than Windu.

 

Well...you just seem to keep sticking to Fay, so sorry if I assumed.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Windu using Vaapad doesn't give him any real big advantage, otherwise he would be able to do more than just stalemate(and sometimes lose) to Dooku and stalemate Sora and Ventress. The only amp that Windu has ever received for Vaapad is his fight with Sidious, which was a specific instance and not consistent.

 

Anakin is actually faster than Windu.

 

Well...you just seem to keep sticking to Fay, so sorry if I assumed.

Windu using Vaapad means he can move supa fast. Faster than Anakin IMO.

 

What I mean is that I never said Fay was equal to Yoda, it is merely a testament to the abilities she already displays which ultimately outclass her competitors, I suggest you refer to my analysis.

 

Basically, even without the quote, I'd still argue Fay's superiority, its pretty clear.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Windu using Vaapad means he can move supa fast. Faster than Anakin IMO.

 

What I mean is that I never said Fay was equal to Yoda, it is merely a testament to the abilities she already displays which ultimately outclass her competitors, I suggest you refer to my analysis.

 

Basically, even without the quote, I'd still argue Fay's superiority, its pretty clear.

 

No Windu can't, he's never moved faster than Anakin except for his fight with Sidious, it's not something he can just pull out whenever, that was a specific instance that enabled him to do so. Windu's consistent speed isn't faster than Anakin, is what I'm saying.

 

Abilities being what? Healing right? Because that's the only thing I see that she has above others.

[Beniboybling]

No Windu can't, he's never moved faster than Anakin except for his fight with Sidious, it's not something he can just pull out whenever, that was a specific instance that enabled him to do so. Windu's consistent speed isn't faster than Anakin, is what I'm saying.

 

Abilities being what? Healing right? Because that's the only thing I see that she has above others.

I guess... but that's besides the point, he has never seen Windu use Vaapad.

 

Did anyone read my analysis? I'd rather not repeat myself.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I guess... but that's besides the point, he has never seen Windu use Vaapad.

 

Did anyone read my analysis? I'd rather not repeat myself.

 

I've read it, but the only thing I see is the Healing thing that she has. Other Force Users have lived longer and other Force Users have overpowered others so...

Edited June 28, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

I've read it, but the only thing I see is the Healing thing that she has. Other Force Users have lived longer and other Force Users have overpowered others so...

I mean this one.

[Aurbere]

2- Dooku. Yoda. Skywalker. Kenobi. All 4 of these have shattered Ventress' force barriers. Skywalker and Kenobi with force pushes, force chokes. Dooku with force lightning on Vjun, Serroco and on his flagship. Yoda on the moon of Toydaria.

Oh wait, Savage did it too.

 

Not Force lightning.

 

"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.

Dooku looked around. "Or what?"

Her face went pale.

Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. "Please," she said. "Don't."

 

"It doesn't feel good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest." Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "It's the blood vessels I hate, "Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside like balloons about to pop."

 

"P-p-p-please..."

 

"But worse anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowed around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite." A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's voice went dark and far away. "All the things you should have stopped, but didn't, and nothing will ever be right again. And the things you've done," he whispered. "By the pitless stars, the things you've done..."

 

The comm on Dooku's desk beeped. He shook his head, like a man waking from a dream. "The Troxan delegation is at the door."

 

Ventress crawled to her feet. Her face was bruised and her cheeks were wet with tears. Both pretended not to notice.

 

So, yeah, not Force lightning.

[Beniboybling]

Not Force lightning.

 

So, yeah, not Force lightning.

An impressive feat.

[Selenial]

Not Force lightning.

So, yeah, not Force lightning.

 

Lol, that was an error on my part.

 

I tried to type: Force lightning on Rattatak, Serroco... etc,

Whilst thinking "No need to mention Vjun, aurbere already did".... Sort of merged.

[Aurbere]

An impressive feat.

 

Indeed it is. One of my favorite Dooku moments.

[Aurbere]

Lol, that was an error on my part.

 

I tried to type: Force lightning on Rattatak, Serroco... etc,

Whilst thinking "No need to mention Vjun, aurbere already did".... Sort of merged.

 

Well, let's face it, Dooku's always been beyond Ventress, he just needs to reinforce that point from time to time.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I mean this one.

 

Well what feats of TK does Fay even have that suggest she surpasses or rival Vader? That quote from ROTS novelization is fine and all, but Vader has shown immense TK feats and that quote is regarding Vader as he was at that point in time, not throughout.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Well what feats of TK does Fay even have that suggest she surpasses or rival Vader? That quote from ROTS novelization is fine and all, but Vader has shown immense TK feats and that quote is regarding Vader as he was at that point in time, not throughout.

Perhaps in terms of technicality, but in terms of raw power? Fay was capable of holding up a building and unleashing a TK storm, and I fully expect with raw power rivalling that of Yoda and hundreds of years to refine her skill she could pull off Vader level feats. And Vader, while regaining some of his power, remained handicapped.

 

And in a handicapped state, its simply not possible for him to achieve such a deep connection to the Living Force and it makes little sense that he would.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Perhaps in terms of technicality, but in terms of raw power? Fay was capable of holding up a building and unleashing a TK storm, and I fully expect with raw power rivalling that of Yoda and hundreds of years to refine her skill she could pull off Vader level feats. And Vader, while regaining some of his power, remained handicapped.

 

And in a handicapped state, its simply not possible for him to achieve such a deep connection to the Living Force and it makes little sense that he would.

 

Vader could match either of feats if that's her 2 best and he still has shown better control than her. So she doesn't surpass him there.

 

But ya know...fine, you wanna keep her there, ok. Not really wanting to argue this anymore.

 

In the end though, I can't really think of any other Jedi to place on the Jedi list so I guess she could be on the list.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Vader could match either of feats if that's her 2 best and he still has shown better control than her. So she doesn't surpass him there.

 

But ya know...fine, you wanna keep her there, ok. Not really wanting to argue this anymore.

 

In the end though, I can't really think of any other Jedi to place on the Jedi list so I guess she could be on the list.

The key here is that no evidence suggests that Fay can't match Vader's feats in terms of raw scale, and she has shown herself to be highly proficient in TK - so its an inconclusive point.

 

On the other hand, in terms of healing, and in terms of connection to the Living Force, Vader is surpassed by Fay.

[Warren-Stride]

The key here is that no evidence suggests that Fay can't match Vader's feats

 

Sorry to butt in here, and I know I haven't been involved in this at all, but this isn't how things work.

 

You can't say that a lack of evidence is evidence.

[Beniboybling]

Sorry to butt in here, and I know I haven't been involved in this at all, but this isn't how things work.

 

You can't say that a lack of evidence is evidence.

Which is why I said its inconclusive. That is effectively my point. We have no evidence to suggest that Fay can't perform Vader level feats and we can't use that as a basis for saying to can't.

 

Noting the fact that she has displayed high levels of TK with relative ease demonstrates it as possible.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Beniboybling