The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

[Beniboybling]

First things are fair enough, for the P.S. "knowledge and understanding" of what exactly?

 

If its of the Force.... that is power....... see Yoda and Luke on Dagobah. Even the more "power" based abilities such as TK or Lightning or what have you is based on the users knowledge and understanding of the Living and Cosmic Force along with their connection to said Force.

And yet Traya is nowhere near as powerful as Sidious and Yoda, as I said before knowledge and understanding can help you bypass what would otherwise require great deal of strength.

 

Its like opening a jam jar by running it under hot water, instead of simply tearing it open. Knowledge in all things, including the Force, not only makes you more powerful yes as you learn to use and harness your own power, but is also makes it easier for you to apply it. And in terms of the Force it means that you can exert less energy and do more.

 

I do agree though with the overall sentiment, but its not always the case. I mean what we are dealing with here is some guy turning up and telling you he opened this jam jar, but you can only guess at how exactly he did it.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

In regards to the current debate, I'm sure we could go round and round debating the technicalities for ever, but it probably won't lead to much progress, instead I'll try addressing this in broader strokes, starting with this quote:

 

...And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory...

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

 

Master Fay has a deep and powerful connection to the Living Force, its what allowed her to recover from grievous injury, its what allowed her to empower Kenobi, and its what allowed her to remain young centuries into her life.

 

Vader on the other hand has had his connection to the Living Force fettered, mentally or otherwise. And given that, and given that Vader at the very least has no clear cut advantages over Fay in terms of the powers we've seen from her, I really can't see the broken man that he became, despite the amount of power his rage and hatred gave him, surpassing the powers of a centuries old Jedi whose palpable strength in the Force rivals that of Master Yoda.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

And yet Traya is nowhere near as powerful as Sidious and Yoda, as I said before knowledge and understanding can help you bypass what would otherwise require great deal of strength.

 

Its like opening a jam jar by running it under hot water, instead of simply tearing it open. Knowledge in all things, including the Force, not only makes you more powerful yes as you learn to use and harness your own power, but is also makes it easier for you to apply it. And in terms of the Force it means that you can exert less energy and do more.

 

I do agree though with the overall sentiment, but its not always the case. I mean what we are dealing with here is some guy turning up and telling you he opened this jam jar, but you can only guess at how exactly he did it.

 

This is true about both Traya and Saba, If you go onto read, I feel Senses are either a sign of great connection to the living OR the cosmic force depending on the type of power.

 

Traya is an example of one who has amazing Connection to the Cosmic Force, Saba on the other hand is one who shows great connection to the Living Force.

 

While they may have better knowledge and connection better then Yoda or Luke in their respective Fields...... they are amazingly out classed in the other, which is what allows Luke and Yoda to do other greater displays.

 

Saba doesnt beat Luke by all that much in terms of Life senses or "understanding of the living Force" but Luke beats her by miles in the understanding of the Cosmic Force.

 

If you are getting my drift.

 

Just wanting to get things as less obscure as possible if you know what I mean a more focused concentration of stuff and to me with the Force knowledge is power, but at the same time we need to understand knowledge of one aspect doesnt mean knowledge of all aspects.

 

Some one can be weaker and still have that 1 aspect of the Force they outclass even the greatest of Force Wielders, but are still weaker because while that 1 aspect puts them above thanks to their understanding and knowledge of that aspect the broader knowledge of the masters means a greaters overall understanding allowing them to pull on multiple aspects simultaneously.

[Darkelefantos]

In regards to the current debate, I'm sure we could go round and round debating the technicalities for ever, but it probably won't lead to much progress, instead I'll try addressing this in broader strokes, starting with this quote:

 

...And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory...

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

 

Master Fay has a deep and powerful connection to the Living Force, its what allowed her to recover from grievous injury, its what allowed her to empower Kenobi, and its what allowed her to remain young centuries into her life.

 

Vader on the other hand has had his connection to the Living Force fettered, mentally or otherwise. And given that, and given that Vader at the very least has no clear cut advantages over Fay in terms of the powers we've seen from her, I really can't see the broken man that he became, despite the amount of power his rage and hatred gave him, surpassing the powers of a centuries old Jedi whose palpable strength in the Force rivals that of Master Yoda.

 

What would be interesting to know is whether she was able to expertly apply her Force power in many different areas, like Yoda (btw, rivaling Yoda may be an overstatement), or if she had one or two strong suites that she mainly focused on (for example, lacks skill in tutaminis but has great skill in telekinesis).

[tunewalker]

In regards to the current debate, I'm sure we could go round and round debating the technicalities for ever, but it probably won't lead to much progress, instead I'll try addressing this in broader strokes, starting with this quote:

 

...And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory...

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

 

Master Fay has a deep and powerful connection to the Living Force, its what allowed her to recover from grievous injury, its what allowed her to empower Kenobi, and its what allowed her to remain young centuries into her life.

 

Vader on the other hand has had his connection to the Living Force fettered, mentally or otherwise. And given that, and given that Vader at the very least has no clear cut advantages over Fay in terms of the powers we've seen from her, I really can't see the broken man that he became, despite the amount of power his rage and hatred gave him, surpassing the powers of a centuries old Jedi whose palpable strength in the Force rivals that of Master Yoda.

 

Just 1 wrench I want to throw.

 

Palpable strength in the Force is connection to the Force IE potential not achieved.

 

 

Edit: All-in-all good stuff, just spuring some thought.

Edited June 2, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

This is true about both Traya and Saba, If you go onto read, I feel Senses are either a sign of great connection to the living OR the cosmic force depending on the type of power.

 

Traya is an example of one who has amazing Connection to the Cosmic Force, Saba on the other hand is one who shows great connection to the Living Force.

 

While they may have better knowledge and connection better then Yoda or Luke in their respective Fields...... they are amazingly out classed in the other, which is what allows Luke and Yoda to do other greater displays.

 

Saba doesnt beat Luke by all that much in terms of Life senses or "understanding of the living Force" but Luke beats her by miles in the understanding of the Cosmic Force.

 

If you are getting my drift.

 

Just wanting to get things as less obscure as possible if you know what I mean a more focused concentration of stuff and to me with the Force knowledge is power, but at the same time we need to understand knowledge of one aspect doesnt mean knowledge of all aspects.

 

Some one can be weaker and still have that 1 aspect of the Force they outclass even the greatest of Force Wielders, but are still weaker because while that 1 aspect puts them above thanks to their understanding and knowledge of that aspect the broader knowledge of the masters means a greaters overall understanding allowing them to pull on multiple aspects simultaneously.

I see what your saying here, But I think the Cosmic Force is more of a niche if you will, whereas the Living Force makes up the majority of Force powers. To me the Cosmic Force is about listening to the will and the way of the Force, to its movements, and in doing so you gain insight into the past, future, and people themselves because the Force both transcends and binds all these things. Its like your patching yourself in to the ebb and flow of the very universe.

 

But that doesn't require a great deal of power, just an ability to listen and center oneself. Not that an ability to center oneself, and become attuned to the Force, does not indicate great power i.e. a connection to the Force.

 

The Living Force on the other hand is the mortal plane, its everything around us. Using the Living Force isn't the same as using the Cosmic Force, its not about tapping into a certain wavelength and listening, its about reaching out and affecting your surroundings, reaching out and manipulating it to your will, which requires strength above all else.

 

This is why I feel folks like Qui-Gon used Force Powers sparingly and respectively.

 

So yes, in that sense power comes before knowledge. Knowledge helps and is necessary, but ultimately you don't need much knowledge to see and understand what is around you, and exert yourself on it. Especially if that power comes from within itself, a subject to which you should be intimately aware. It doesn't transcend our understanding.

 

So altogether I'd say the Cosmic Force puts on emphasis on knowledge over power, and the Living Force places an emphasis on power over knowledge. Though the later I feel does fluctuate in regards to my jam jar analogy.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

I see what your saying here, But I think the Cosmic Force is more of a niche if you will, whereas the Living Force makes up the majority of Force powers. To me the Cosmic Force is about listening to the will and the way of the Force, to its movements, and in doing so you gain insight into the past, future, and people themselves because the Force both transcends and binds all these things. Its like your patching yourself in to the ebb and flow of the very universe.

 

But that doesn't require a great deal of power, just an ability to listen and center oneself. Not that an ability to center oneself, and become attuned to the Force, does not indicate great power i.e. a connection to the Force.

 

The Living Force on the other hand is the mortal plane, its everything around us. Using the Living Force isn't the same as using the Cosmic Force, its not about tapping into a certain wavelength and listening, its about reaching out and affecting your surroundings, reaching out and manipulating it to your will, which requires strength above all else.

 

This is why I feel folks like Qui-Gon used Force Powers sparingly and respectively.

 

So yes, in that sense power comes before knowledge. Knowledge helps and is necessary, but ultimately you don't need much knowledge to see and understand what is around you, and exert yourself on it. Especially if that power comes from within itself, a subject to which you should be intimately aware. It doesn't transcend our understanding.

 

So altogether I'd say the Cosmic Force puts on emphasis on knowledge over power, and the Living Force places an emphasis on power over knowledge. Though the later I feel does fluctuate in regards to my jam jar analogy.

 

I think Both Fluctuate to a degree honestly, but I still dont know if enough credit is given to knowledge and understanding as BEING power, I am cautious if you know what I mean about labeling powers "power based" vs "Knowledge/ understanding Based" as like I said every power is in some way knowledge based.

 

 

To go with the Jam analogy..... both opened the Jar does it REALLY matter how it was achieved? They both had the same affect just different means to getting there.

 

Its like a Force Sensitive with a lot of Raw Potential doing the same thing as a Force sensitive who has had a lot of training and is now closer to their max. They both have the same ACHIEVED power, but 1 is just closer to their top out, while the other once they get that knowledge and understanding will surpass the one with out that same Raw potential.....but they havent surpassed them YET because the gap in knoweldge and understanding is making up for that Raw power/ Strength of connection to the Force. As we have said, this thread isnt about who has the highest POTENTIAL or greatest Raw Power/ connection to the force, its about the achieved power and all achieved power is in some way linked to knowledge and understanding of the Force as ALL achieved power is based on Knowledge and understanding + Connection.

 

 

Edit: Just to be sure I am understood the reason I say Knowledge AND understanding, is they are both different. You can have knowledge with out understanding, though I dont think you have understanding with out knowledge.

 

A Prime example was Luke on Dathomir, he had a good amount of knowledge about the Force, but his understanding VASTLY grew upon his near death experience and visibly seeing the Living Force. It was the difference between knowing the words.... and fully understanding their meaning.

Edited June 2, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

I think Both Fluctuate to a degree honestly, but I still dont know if enough credit is given to knowledge and understanding as BEING power, I am cautious if you know what I mean about labeling powers "power based" vs "Knowledge/ understanding Based" as like I said every power is in some way knowledge based.

 

 

To go with the Jam analogy..... both opened the Jar does it REALLY matter how it was achieved? They both had the same affect just different means to getting there.

 

Its like a Force Sensitive with a lot of Raw Potential doing the same thing as a Force sensitive who has had a lot of training and is now closer to their max. They both have the same ACHIEVED power, but 1 is just closer to their top out, while the other once they get that knowledge and understanding will surpass the one with out that same Raw potential.....but they havent surpassed them YET because the gap in knoweldge and understanding is making up for that Raw power/ Strength of connection to the Force. As we have said, this thread isnt about who has the highest POTENTIAL or greatest Raw Power/ connection to the force, its about the achieved power and all achieved power is in some way linked to knowledge and understanding of the Force as ALL achieved power is based on Knowledge and understanding + Connection.

Because we are measuring power here, in that case lets say we are measuring strength. The person who opened it by running it under hot water has not proven that they are stronger than the person who just ripped it open.

 

In terms of strength, the later is more impressive.

 

But again I'm not denying that in many instances knowledge and understanding are gateways to power. They are, but they can also in many cases be means of bypassing power.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Because we are measuring power here, in that case lets say we are measuring strength. The person who opened it by running it under hot water has not proven that they are stronger than the person who just ripped it open.

 

In terms of strength, the later is more impressive.

 

But again I'm not denying that in many instances knowledge and understanding are gateways to power. They are, but they can also in many cases be means of bypassing power.

 

This is where your hitting the wall of if thats the case, why not Galen above Emperor and so on and so forth..... You said we are Measuring ACHIEVED power..... well in the case of the jam both ACHIEVED the same.

 

If we wish to measure PURE strength, then we are Measuring Strength in the Force IE connection to the Force IE Potential.

 

 

Edit: to Be clear, yes Connection is important, the person running the water over the Jar doesnt have a completely lack of strength, they can still lift the Jar and hold it for an extended period of time and then still apply physical force to open the Jar AFTER its been set up by the water, thus some strength is applied.

Edited June 2, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

What would be interesting to know is whether she was able to expertly apply her Force power in many different areas, like Yoda (btw, rivaling Yoda may be an overstatement), or if she had one or two strong suites that she mainly focused on (for example, lacks skill in tutaminis but has great skill in telekinesis).

I'd hypothesize that given that she lived for centuries, studying only the Force and foregoeing the lightsaber, that she has a broad range of skills. After all she got by in the Outer Rim without a weapon, you need to be broadly skilled to do that. I'd definitely say tutanimis, if you haven't got a lightsaber, you need to be able to deflect energy somehow.

 

Nothing she's displayed Control powers via healing, Alter powers via TK, and knowledge of Sense given that she was able to invade and then attack Ventress' mind, which suggests ability in other powers that come under those umbrellas.

 

Of course I doubt she matched the mastery of abilities that Yoda did, but then he's three times her senior.

[tunewalker]

I'd hypothesize that given that she lived for centuries, studying only the Force and foregoeing the lightsaber, that she has a broad range of skills. After all she got by in the Outer Rim without a weapon, you need to be broadly skilled to do that. I'd definitely say tutanimis, if you haven't got a lightsaber, you need to be able to deflect energy somehow.

 

Nothing she's displayed Control powers via healing, Alter powers via TK, and knowledge of Sense given that she was able to invade and then attack Ventress' mind, which suggests ability in other powers that come under those umbrellas.

 

Of course I doubt she matched the mastery of abilities that Yoda did, but then he's three times her senior.

You can almost 100% say she has Tutaminis, it was 1 of the 3 Control umbrella skills taught to Jedi as Children in that era.

Edited June 2, 2014 by tunewalker

[Darkelefantos]

Now, now, we should focus on more important things than how the jam jar was opened. Like,

[Beniboybling]

now, now, we should focus on more important things than how the jam jar was opened. Like, was it raspberry jam?

Ha ha Edited June 2, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

So yeh... My Fay post.

 

Also, can we revisit the Revan vs Surik thing?

[Aurbere]

So yeh... My Fay post.

 

Also, can we revisit the Revan vs Surik thing?

 

We never really did a proper analysis of that...

[Beniboybling]

All right, concerning Master Fay - here is my analysis:

 

Possessed strength in the Force that rivaled Yoda's

 

At first I thought I would be on any other mission with Jedi Knights to accompany me with, but I quickly realised that the four Jedi that would accompany me, were the legends that I'd heard of as a child and then I saw her, youth betraying her ancient eyes and a power in the Force I had not sensed in anyone except our Grand Master.

 

--Obi-Wan Kenobi, Blast Radius.

 

Kenobi not only possessed profound Sense abilities, but he had been in close proximity to Yoda, Windu, Anakin and many other powerful members of the Jedi Order - if not most, on a regular basis. We therefore have no reason to doubt his perceptions of Fay's power, remember that ultimately we are interpreting authorial intentions here.

 

It is also clear that Kenobi did not just believe her to be the second most powerful Jedi in the Order, but was effectively Yoda's equal, effectively he says that only Yoda has such power in the Force as Fay - if it were not for the reality that Yoda were the most powerful Jedi in the Order, this could be used to say that they are equals.

 

Possessed a profound and refined connection to the Living Force

 

The Living Force is in short, the essence of life, and what sustains it. Master Fay's connection to the Living Force was so strong that she was able to retain an extremely youthful appearance, despite being hundreds of years old.

 

And according to Kenobi could extend her life indefinitely:

 

She was the strongest of us all, and for a brief moment, I could feel how strong. I suspect she would have lived forever, if not for this one sacrifice.

 

--Obi-Wan Kenobi, Blast Radius.

 

However Master Fay is likely a Sephi, or at the very least part Sephi - as according to Leland Chee:

 

...all pointy-eared species are either Sephi or closely related to Sephi.

 

The average lifespan of a Sephi was over 200 years, so Fay is already naturally longlived. However according to Mace Windu Fay lived for "many hundreds of years" - making her at least 300 years old if not more. Making her not only far older than any natural Sephi, but doing so without single wrinkle to show for it. And Sephi are wrinkly.

 

We should also consider that over her many years of life, Fay would have had plenty of time to refine her abilities in the Force which she dedicated herself fully to, foregoing the use of a lightsaber completely. And given that she could reach levels of mastery rivaling that of Master Yoda, which Kenobi himself effectively confirmed she did.

 

Possessed remarkable and unprecedented abilities in Force Healing

 

Through the course of blast radius Fay was stabbed in the back by Ventress' lightsabers - puncturing vital organs (noting Fay was only caught of guard because she was trying to protect Kenobi, and had just been caught in a large explosion) and yet despite that is its affirmed that Fay could have recovered from these injuries completely.

 

This points to incredibly ability in Control i.e. Force Healing, a product no doubt of her profound connection to the Living Force. Noting that Force Healing is a Force intensive ability as you are effectively channeling raw energy through your body and using it to repair any damage. On top of that, Fay was able to extend this well of energy to Kenobi, choosing to use the last of her reserves to empower Kenobi and allow him to escape.

 

Again this, like the above feats, points to a great deal of raw strength in the Force above all else.

 

Possessed offensive capabilities that could overwhelm powerful Force wielders with ease

 

Fay was able to totally incapacitate Ventress without any difficulty, not only was she able to summon a TK storm with the flick of her wrists, but she was also able to knock Ventress unconscious immediately by "pulling her thoughts away from her" - tearing through her Force Barriers like paper to strike a paralyzing blow.

 

Noting that Ventress had become quite powerful at this point, even early on in the war - powerful enough to take on two of the most powerful members of the Jedi Order - Kenobi and Anakin - simultaneously. She is no pushover.

 

And who is the only other being capable of batting Ventress aside in such a way?

And again, this is not simply some esoteric feat, a mere product of understanding. This was a telepathic assault that would have required Fay to bypass Ventress' barriers with force. It is a raw power feat.

[Beniboybling]

Now in regards to how Fay stacks up against her rivals i.e. Vader, Jaina Solo and Mace Windu. I don't see them as surpassing her, noting first and foremost that none of them ever rivaled the powers of Master Yoda.

 

In terms of Vader, his TK abilities and perhaps even his telepathic abilities rival Fay's for sure. But he simply did not possess such a powerful connection to the Living Force as Fay did. Fay's connection allowed her to extend her life indefinitely, heal herself from grievous injury and altogether she resonated with a massive amount of raw energy.

 

Vader on the other hand, despite being powerful, had his connection to the Living Force fettered:

 

...And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory...

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

 

Feel free to compare those to the Blast Radius quotes, the difference is notable.

 

And has no clear cut advantage over Fay in terms of comparable abilties, so it comes down to this, and he loses.

 

Noting also that his non-canon death he is instantly killed by almost identical injuries to Fay. And that Fay surpassed him as Anakin Skywalker according to Kenobi, for whatever those pieces of evidence may be worth.

 

In terms of Mace Windu, according to Kenobi Fay surpassed his power and really I see nothing from Windu that indicates his superiority to Fay. Noting that in a brief duel with Ventress he was forced to engage her, and she was able to escape, Windu did not slap her down with the Force like Fay did. The guy has a few wrinkles as well...

 

And finally Jaina Solo, she possessed profound ability with Force Healing, but nothing on the level of Master Fay. I really find it unlikely that she could survive being impaled by twin blades - and she was not lacking in this area.

 

So all in all I think Fay's position on this list is fair, and that we have enough information to rank her. I would propose that we put her below Exar Kun but above Vader and move on to the next article.

[Beniboybling]

Also, can we revisit the Revan vs Surik thing?

The next article concerns Windu vs Revan & Meetra Surik - so we can discuss that then.

[LadyKulvax]

I concur with all your assessments as well as placing, I have more information on Kun by the way but I am saving it for another revision of my Exar Kun analysis.

[Aurbere]

The next article concerns Windu vs Revan & Meetra Surik - so we can discuss that then.

 

I feel that, if we exclude the original Clone Wars series, Dooku would be more powerful than Mace. This is practically confirmed by Yoda. So I don't really have much to say on that article, unless we consider the original Clone Wars series.

[Selenial]

Ill skip Fay then, seeing as you've already made up your mind and ignored half my points. Doesn't really matter though, not like her being 3 as opposed to like 8 really makes any difference.

 

Surik vs Revan vs Windu on the other hand....

 

Surik > Revan > Windu, and I'll debate why once we "officially" move on to it.

[Aurbere]

Ill skip Fay then, seeing as you've already made up your mind and ignored half my points. Doesn't really matter though, not like her being 3 as opposed to like 8 really makes any difference.

 

Surik vs Revan vs Windu on the other hand....

 

Dooku > Surik > Revan > Windu, and I'll debate why once we "officially" move on to it.

 

*cough* Fixed *cough*

 

[Beniboybling]

Ill skip Fay then, seeing as you've already made up your mind and ignored half my points. Doesn't really matter though, not like her being 3 as opposed to like 8 really makes any difference.

 

Surik vs Revan vs Windu on the other hand....

 

Surik > Revan > Windu, and I'll debate why once we "officially" move on to it.

You asked for my analysis, I gave it. In regards to your points.

 

1. I'm fairly sure we have plenty of information to rank Fay, see above.

 

2. It is not the uniqueness of Fay's attack on Ventress that marks her out as special, but that she was able to dominate Ventress by breaking through her barriers in such a way, and it is far from her most impressive feat.

 

Nor as I explained is it an feat of understanding, you need more than practice to break through Force Barriers.

 

3. Traya's powers in foresight are down to her remarkably strong connection to the Cosmic Force, which is secondary in terms of manipulating the Force to your will, which is why she is not uber powerful. See here for details.

 

4. Traya's powers in healing are not unprecedented, the likes of Vader, Malgus, Jaina Solo and others rival them. Noting that Traya stabbed herself in the abdomen - a non-lethal wound - its unlikely she punctured vital organs.

 

5. Character statements are not non-canon. I never ever said that. Instead I have said time and time again that character statements should be considered valid sources of information unless we have reason to doubt them.

 

I think that covers everything. Ultimately however if we are going to argue that Fay's position be changed we actual need some specific examples of the likes of Vader, Jaina or Windu surpassing her in the fields she has displayed.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

And who is the only other being capable of batting Ventress aside in such a way?

 

I must point out something on this point: Dooku put her down with ease on Vjun. So there is someone else.

[Selenial]

You asked for my analysis, I gave it. In regards to your points.

 

1. I'm fairly sure we have plenty of information to rank Fay, see above.

 

2. It is not the uniqueness of Fay's attack on Ventress that marks her out as special, but that she was able to dominate Ventress by breaking through her barriers in such a way, and it is far from her most impressive feat.

 

Nor as I explained is it an feat of understanding, you need more than practice to break through Force Barriers.

 

3. Traya's powers in foresight are down to her remarkably strong connection to the Cosmic Force, which is secondary in terms of manipulating the Force to your will, which is why she is not uber powerful. See here for details.

 

4. Traya's powers in healing are not unprecedented, the likes of Vader, Malgus, Jaina Solo and others rival them. Noting that Traya stabbed herself in the abdomen - a non-lethal wound - its unlikely she punctured vital organs.

 

5. Character statements are not non-canon. I never ever said that. Instead I have said time and time again that character statements should be considered valid sources of information unless we have reason to doubt them.

 

I think that covers everything. Ultimately however if we are going to argue that Fay's position be changed we actual need some specific examples of the likes of Vader, Jaina or Windu surpassing her in the fields she has displayed.

 

2- Dooku. Yoda. Skywalker. Kenobi. All 4 of these have shattered Ventress' force barriers. Skywalker and Kenobi with force pushes, force chokes. Dooku with force lightning on Vjun, Serroco and on his flagship. Yoda on the moon of Toydaria.

Oh wait, Savage did it too.

 

You yourself have said that some Jedi/Sith simply lack strong Force barriers, Ventress is one of these people.

 

3- You missed the point of that, but OK.

 

4- Malgus and Vader used Dark Rage, and it was more of a pain killer not healing. They never healed their own wounds as well as Traya or others, they just shrugged off the pain and healed themselves later. Noting I also said amongst Sith, Jaina Solo is not a Sith, she also didnt stand up to Traya's abilities.

I was referring to more Hanharr and Tobin than Herself. But one should note that she also was presumed dead by Sion and Nihilus, she brought herself so close to death that she feigned it, only to re-heal her own wounds and escape. Let's also not forget he whole "I can heal my own eyesight" or the Severed hand.

 

5-

That was stated by the Hutt Jedi Knight Beldorion. However character statements are non-canon so is by no means the be all and end all. Regardless you are right, both Nomi and Thon should definitely be considered for this list.

 

Right....

 

Mmk.