The REAL Most Powerful Revisited

[Beniboybling]

Also, prior to the duel with Ventress and Durge, Kenobi was almost incapacitated by the "hemorrhaging" (as he put it) energy. So I feel that this would make his feats of Force Valor even more impressive. Anyone else feel the same?

Wait, what "hemorrhaging" energy exactly, the dark side nexus?

[Beniboybling]

Affinity for sorcery, vs someone that needed to learn it with out affinity for (to my knowledge) yep thats comparable.... oh wait ..... see Yoda vs Corran Horn Tutaminis. Yoda 900 years, Corran Horn a couple months, no Affinity for vs affinity for.

Corran Horn as far as I'm aware couldn't do anything that Yoda couldn't.

 

Yes affinity gives you an innate understanding of the subject. But at some point you have to sit down and study.

 

Exar Kun did not receive his powers on a platter, he had to work for them, and in doing so becoming one of the greatest Sith Sorcerers in galactic history - in terms both of power and knowledge.

[Aurbere]

Wait, what "hemorrhaging" energy exactly, the dark side nexus?

 

The Force itself, so Obi-Wan says. "I opened myself to the Living Force... I can feel it hemorrhaging!"

[tunewalker]

I've edited that post, you'll find it helpful. Let me post it here for convenience:

I think your definition of raw power is flawed, the definiton of power is:

 

the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way.

 

Note, to do something. Connections to the Force are all about potential, Anakin may have had a stronger connection to the Force than Sidious but his ability to apply himself was inferior to that of Sidious.

 

Now of course I'm prefixing this word with the word "Force" so I meaning one's capacity to act with the Force. And the word raw referring to the notion that its unfettered by refined aspects such as knowledge, understanding etc.

 

Now I'm not going to deny that technical mastery is irrelevant in terms of acting with the Force, that is illogical. But it only acts as a gateway, knowledge, understanding etc. all these things are gateways to power. And so while they are indicative of one achieving power, being a gateway and all, they are inferior to actual displays of power, the end itself.

 

I'd also add to that that sometimes, often even, a deep technical understanding of the Force can open doors for the Force User, and allow them to take shortcuts i.e. perform particular feats with less exertion. Giving an illusion of power.

 

This is why I put then on a lower rung, I don't disregard them, but they are on a lower rung.

Anyway I'd point out that Kun's incapacitation was a off-hand feat which he put little energy into. Whereas when he vaporised the Massassi it was clear that he was drawing on the very heights of his power. I don't know if he could do the same with TK, I think if in a rage induced fury he could very likely do something similar to Galen Marek.

 

But if he couldn't, I'd put that down to an inferior knowledge of TK, and therefore an inability to channel energies, energies which he has mastered and realised (not potential) in that particular way.

 

Building on by edit, raw power > technical mastery. Because technical mastery, knowledge etc. is merely an indication of one's ability to use the Force, because it implies gateways, gateways of power, have been opened and a greater level of one's potential has been reached. But ultimately it is one's demonstrations of the Force i.e. raw power, that takes precedence. Kun's superior raw power showings demonstrates plain and simple that despite the fact that he lacks technical refiniement in the field of TK, he can still exert his power on a superior level to Vader, he is more powerful.

 

Think about this carefully, it is simply not fair to undermine Kun on such grounds if he has the showings, we cannot degrade him because he paid more attention to sorcery - his knowledge of which and arugably his knowledge of the Force in general outstripping Vader's - anymore than we can gimp Vader for the opposite.

 

To take this further, if their raw showings i.e. simply put their applications of power, were equal, then I'd give the edge to Vader, because his superior understanding and refined mastery in the sphere of TK, indicates (and only indicates) that when push comes to shove, Vader could perform more powerful showings than Kun, because he has unlocked more of his potential than Kun. That's what is at the very crux of this list, how much of one's potential you have unlocked, and whose unlocked potential is the most potent. I hope this issue is now clear to you.

 

EDIT: Now if you want to argue that despite Kun's superior raw showings, Vader's technical mastery still indicates superior power, then fine, but I'm afraid I'd still disagree for the following reasons:

 

1. Evidence suggests Vader is simply not capable of these feats, he was inferior to Marek i.e. a being capable of vaporisation, and when up against multiple Jedi opponents he's had to wade in a fight, sometimes with disatrous results. This indicates shortcoming in his ability to wield the Force, shortcomings Kun does not have.

 

2. As Rayla pointed out, Kun has a great deal of technical mastery as well. He's master a wide set of feats and his knowledge of Sith Sorcery most likely vastly increased his understanding of the Force in general. It is after all not an exclusive field. And all in all Vader's technical mastery is reserved for TK and TK alone, not other spheres.

 

Did I just see you say Vader doesnt have Technical Mastery of Powers outside of TK?

 

Telepathy, Alter enviroment, Force Whirlwind (its a version of both alter enviroment and TK), Force Protection (a more advanced version of Force Shield) Tutaminis (able to block lightning with it)

 

The knowledge of Kinetite when he has enough power provided (or enough restraint lifted as some have speculated that it may be in his repitiore but he doesnt use it because its nature is potentially harmful to his suit and the only reason he did so against Luke was the Crystal made him more "insane")

 

Also According to wookie in the comic "darth Vader and the Ghost Prison 5" he did use a wave to insta kill multiple people so.....

 

As far as the Sorcery goes, I dont think you are understanding me and I dont know of a simpler way to say it so I am just going to try to leave that subject alone until I ca better explain how the blasts that Kill the Massassi likely take the same energy as the TK wave that knocked out the group of Force users, or how affinity allows people to go above and beyond their actual knowledge or actual "raw power" by your definition of Raw Power (aka farther down the road to their "Full Potential" then they have reached in any other feild. actually I hope that right there gets the point acrossed. No one is 100% at their full potential besides Luke, Sidious, Yoda and Vitiate to my knowledge, Certainly Kun is not, but thanks to his AFFINITY for Sorcery his abilities with Sorcery act as if he is maybe twice as close to his max potential by comparison to his other abilities (again see all other people who have affinities for powers)

 

Things some one has an affinity for are not a good indication of their knowledge, understanding or actual "raw power" your definition of Raw power not the Connection deffinition of Raw power, affiinity abilities are a good indication of Connection as if their connection wasnt that strong they wouldnt be able to pull on that much power, but the affinity gives them the ability to get closer to that "potential" then they have actually achieved with any ability outside their affinity. I think I am talking in circles at this point, either your going to get it.... or your not.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Just gonna bring up something, Obi-Wan matched a hindered Anakin in that Force Push contest. Meaning Anakin wasn't able to give his full strength of what he is normally able to do, Anakin's Force power/feats surpass Obi-Wan's, he is way more powerful than him.

 

The only reason Obi-Wan was able to even stalemate Anakin was because he was hindered by his emotional state, this is shown elsewhere where his emotional state made his ability less so than what he could actually do.

 

Also Tune to that Ghost Prison feat here

 

Here.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

Corran Horn as far as I'm aware couldn't do anything that Yoda couldn't.

 

Yes affinity gives you an innate understanding of the subject. But at some point you have to sit down and study.

 

Exar Kun did not receive his powers on a platter, he had to work for them, and in doing so becoming one of the greatest Sith Sorcerers in galactic history - in terms both of power and knowledge.

 

Ya his affinity only gave him a good 2000 year jump start that's all nothing major.

 

Yoda and Horn could pull about equal tutaminis feats. Does that make Horn Yoda's equal in Control?.... I certainly hope not because he isnt.

 

See "affinity brings closer to 'max potential' then achieved in any other field"

Edited May 30, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Just gonna bring up something, Obi-Wan matched a hindered Anakin in that Force Push contest. Meaning Anakin wasn't able to give his full strength of what he is normally able to do, Anakin's Force power/feats surpass Obi-Wan's, he is way more powerful than him.

 

The only reason Obi-Wan was able to even stalemate Anakin was because he was hindered by his emotional state, this is shown elsewhere where his emotional state made his ability less so than what he could actually do.

 

Also Tune to that Ghost Prison feat here

 

Here.

 

I honestly doubt that Anakin's rage hindered his Force abilities. Unless you can find a quote, of course.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I honestly doubt that Anakin's rage hindered his Force abilities. Unless you can find a quote, of course.

 

Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

 

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

 

He was vulnerable, he was between sides, he wasn't acting as himself. If he was more like his actual self, than Anakin should have won.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

He was vulnerable, he was between sides, he wasn't acting as himself. If he was more like his actual self, than Anakin should have won.

 

That doesn't suggest what you're suggesting. To me, anyway.

[Beniboybling]

Did I just see you say Vader doesnt have Technical Mastery of Powers outside of TK?

 

Telepathy, Alter enviroment, Force Whirlwind (its a version of both alter enviroment and TK), Force Protection (a more advanced version of Force Shield) Tutaminis (able to block lightning with it)

 

The knowledge of Kinetite when he has enough power provided (or enough restraint lifted as some have speculated that it may be in his repitiore but he doesnt use it because its nature is potentially harmful to his suit and the only reason he did so against Luke was the Crystal made him more "insane")

 

Also According to wookie in the comic "darth Vader and the Ghost Prison 5" he did use a wave to insta kill multiple people so.....

 

As far as the Sorcery goes, I dont think you are understanding me and I dont know of a simpler way to say it so I am just going to try to leave that subject alone until I ca better explain how the blasts that Kill the Massassi likely take the same energy as the TK wave that knocked out the group of Force users, or how affinity allows people to go above and beyond their actual knowledge or actual "raw power" by your definition of Raw Power (aka farther down the road to their "Full Potential" then they have reached in any other feild. actually I hope that right there gets the point acrossed. No one is 100% at their full potential besides Luke, Sidious, Yoda and Vitiate to my knowledge, Certainly Kun is not, but thanks to his AFFINITY for Sorcery his abilities with Sorcery act as if he is maybe twice as close to his max potential by comparison to his other abilities (again see all other people who have affinities for powers)

 

Things some one has an affinity for are not a good indication of their knowledge, understanding or actual "raw power" your definition of Raw power not the Connection deffinition of Raw power, affiinity abilities are a good indication of Connection as if their connection wasnt that strong they wouldnt be able to pull on that much power, but the affinity gives them the ability to get closer to that "potential" then they have actually achieved with any ability outside their affinity. I think I am talking in circles at this point, either your going to get it.... or your not.

When I say technical mastery I mean extraordinary, above-average etc. Vader has mastered other powers yes, but no more than everybody else/to what we would expect from a Force User of his caliber. I'm not trying to degrade Vader in this sense, I'm just saying that overall, neither Vader nor Exar Kun really have a marked advantage in terms of technical mastery, both of them have a deep and impressive knowledge of the Force. Vader has TK, Kun has sorcery.

 

Ultimately however, its is shortcomings that solidify Kun's position. The Ghost Prison feat is certainly impressive and it might have knocked several Jedi off their feet, but incapacitate them? Unlikely. And its quite clear this is not a feat he can perform at the drop of a hat with little difficulty, but something he has to channel.

 

In fact this is likely the near full extent of his power in terms of Force Wave, and it is still inferior to Kun.

 

And I've already accepted that affinity gives you an innate understanding of a particular subject but it does not give you the raw power to wield it, that can only come from yourself, unless in some cases you can balance those demands with knoweldge. A power were you basically shoot Force at people clearly does not fall under that category. And in so far I see no evidence to suggest that raw TK energy of that magnitude is any less capable of vaporising matter than the Force Blast itself. No it is not equivalent to a Force push, more like

 

As I explained, not facts dispute this, no property gives it an advantage in terms of obliterating matter.

 

You need to start dealing with this matter on a case by case basis rather than making blanket statements. Corran Horn's innate affinity for tutanimis is not the same as Kun's innate affinity for Sith Magic! Tutanminis puts a far heavier emphasis on understanding than the rather - as I have already said - crude Force Blast does. The Force Blast is pure power, and that power is all Kun's. In this respect his understanding only helps him harness this power.

 

I understand the facts Tunewalker and have acknowledged them from the beginning, but your insisting on blanketing this subject and in doing so are ignoring important aspects unique to this particular subject.

 

Unless you can apply your theory to the subject i.e. explain exactly how the Force Blast is a product of knowledge, not power, instead of just saying "its just like a Force Push cause Horn" then your argument is void. Simply put, I understand and accept your theories, but here I feel it simply doesn't apply. Aside from in regards to knowledge.

[Beniboybling]

Ya his affinity only gave him a good 2000 year jump start that's all nothing major.

 

Yoda and Horn could pull about equal tutaminis feats. Does that make Horn Yoda's equal in Control?.... I certainly hope not because he isnt.

 

See "affinity brings closer to 'max potential' then achieved in any other field"

So your saying that you need 800 (not 2000 lol) years of experience to pull off what Horn did?

 

No, no you don't. Many other Jedi are likely capable of what Horn did. This comparison with Yoda is totally arbitary, Especially considering that he doesn't even - as you admit - surpass Yoda in this field.

 

Clearly 900 years of experience > innate affinity hands down. I don't see how Horn comes close to Yoda at all.

 

Regardless you failed to disprove my point, innate affinity or not it did not give Kun his powers on a platter. His mastery over Sith Magic is profound - more profound that Vader's knowledge of TK. And on top of that it gives him knowledge of Force powers in general, opening up more gateways and altogether expanding his ability as a practitioner of the Force.

 

And finally again, Tutanimis and the Force Blast are not the same. Stop talking about Horn, lets talk about Kun.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

Considering the canon description of Force Blast is literally just: "This technique allows you to pour your raw dark power into a Force attack of pure Dark Side energy, when in a rage it can have devastating effects."I must agree with Beni.

, especially considering that his own version far outstripped by many magnitudes that of the other users like Ommin and Keto.

[tunewalker]

So your saying that you need 800 (not 2000 lol) years of experience to pull off what Horn did?

 

No, no you don't. Many other Jedi are likely capable of what Horn did. This comparison with Yoda is totally arbitary, Especially considering that he doesn't even - as you admit - surpass Yoda in this field.

 

Clearly 900 years of experience > innate affinity hands down. I don't see how Horn comes close to Yoda at all.

 

Regardless you failed to disprove my point, innate affinity or not it did not give Kun his powers on a platter. His mastery over Sith Magic is profound - more profound that Vader's knowledge of TK. And on top of that it gives him knowledge of Force powers in general, opening up more gateways and altogether expanding his ability as a practitioner of the Force.

 

And finally again, Tutanimis and the Force Blast are not the same. Stop talking about Horn, lets talk about Kun.

 

no you would need 2000 years of study to achieve Kun's level of sorcery (see Sith Emperor).

 

I am establishing precidence (you do know the purpose of establishing precedence right?) for Affinities granting power beyond what the person has achieved through knowledge in other fields, would you prefer I use Koon as another example, or Cihgal, or Streen, Or Leia, I am using Kun as well his Sorcery powers going far away above and beyond his other abilities as well as i feel Vader's knowledge of the more classic abilities (he is not known for having any affinity for any abililties) which is pure knowledge is greater then Kun's but Kun's Sorcery knowledge is greater then Vader's more classic abilities literally showing greater understanding and knowledge of sorcery then any of his other abilities clearly caused by his affinity for sorcery.

[tunewalker]

Considering the canon description of Force Blast is literally just: "This technique allows you to pour your raw dark power into a Force attack of pure Dark Side energy, when in a rage it can have devastating effects."I must agree with Beni.

, especially considering that his own version far outstripped by many magnitudes that of the other users like Ommin and Keto.

 

I am glad every one missed the whole

 

 

"see affinity allows closer to Potential then achieved any where else" point (aka if we arent using potential as the definition of "raw power" and are instead using what the person actually achieved, then we CAN NOT use any ability achieved through affinity as their affinity for said ability allows them to achieve Power closer to their Max Potential (Max Potential being their connection to the force which does not change with knowledge) then they have actually achieved with any other power. An arguement neither of you have bothered to even attempt to disprove with precendence from any other character, and an argument I have already shown precedence for with Koon, Corran Horn, and Streen 3 instances of precendence proving the statement is more then enough.)

Edited May 30, 2014 by tunewalker

[tunewalker]

When I say technical mastery I mean extraordinary, above-average etc. Vader has mastered other powers yes, but no more than everybody else/to what we would expect from a Force User of his caliber. I'm not trying to degrade Vader in this sense, I'm just saying that overall, neither Vader nor Exar Kun really have a marked advantage in terms of technical mastery, both of them have a deep and impressive knowledge of the Force. Vader has TK, Kun has sorcery.

 

Ultimately however, its is shortcomings that solidify Kun's position. The Ghost Prison feat is certainly impressive and it might have knocked several Jedi off their feet, but incapacitate them? Unlikely. And its quite clear this is not a feat he can perform at the drop of a hat with little difficulty, but something he has to channel.

 

In fact this is likely the near full extent of his power in terms of Force Wave, and it is still inferior to Kun.

 

And I've already accepted that affinity gives you an innate understanding of a particular subject but it does not give you the raw power to wield it, that can only come from yourself, unless in some cases you can balance those demands with knoweldge. A power were you basically shoot Force at people clearly does not fall under that category. And in so far I see no evidence to suggest that raw TK energy of that magnitude is any less capable of vaporising matter than the Force Blast itself. No it is not equivalent to a Force push, more like

 

As I explained, not facts dispute this, no property gives it an advantage in terms of obliterating matter.

 

You need to start dealing with this matter on a case by case basis rather than making blanket statements. Corran Horn's innate affinity for tutanimis is not the same as Kun's innate affinity for Sith Magic! Tutanminis puts a far heavier emphasis on understanding than the rather - as I have already said - crude Force Blast does. The Force Blast is pure power, and that power is all Kun's. In this respect his understanding only helps him harness this power.

 

I understand the facts Tunewalker and have acknowledged them from the beginning, but your insisting on blanketing this subject and in doing so are ignoring important aspects unique to this particular subject.

 

Unless you can apply your theory to the subject i.e. explain exactly how the Force Blast is a product of knowledge, not power, instead of just saying "its just like a Force Push cause Horn" then your argument is void. Simply put, I understand and accept your theories, but here I feel it simply doesn't apply. Aside from in regards to knowledge.

 

The Raw power to wield it comes form their connection to the force. NOT their achieved power in other realms.

if you are going to talk about Raw power in this way here then we return once again to Anakin needing to be at the top of this list along with Leia and Galen above The emperor (are you getting it yet or do i need to bash my head against a wall longer.)

 

 

Edit: read more of that.... and oh god....I dont even...... how to explain in a simpler manner for you to understand.

 

TK is both slightly concentrated energy and movement of wind currents, Force blasts is just energy. TK energy is by its nature is less concentrated and more spread out thus the damage caused by the energy is also less as it is not focused (think rays of light normal vs rays of light through a magnifieing glass) The amount of energy a TK push uses (largely not concentrated enough to be visible while also using energy to move air currents again not concentrated enough to be visible) to rip through a force users barriers and drop them on their butt is likely the same amount of energy expunged to straight kill with force blast as the energy isnt being wasted on moving air currents and that energy is much more concentrated onto a single point thus causing far more devistation on that point. This has JACK ALL to do with affinity and my Corran Horn/ Koon/ Streen/ Affinity arguement. This is how I know you are not understanding a single point of my arguement at all.

 

 

Edit: all Force powers are a product of both knowledge and Power. Did Luke fail to Lift the X-wing Because he lacked the "raw power" to do it?..... no he lacked the knowledge and understanding since he was clearly able to do it later in life. Did Galen Marek Fail to over power Sidious because he Lacked the Raw power with Force lightning? No its straight said that his connection was stronger and had he just had greater knowledge and understanding with the Force he would have been able to do it.

 

Affinity allows one to achieve power closer to their max potential as their understanding of that ability is naturally high enough that they can pull closer to their full "Raw Power" or in other words closer to their "Full Max potential" or limited more by "connection to the force or midi count then actual understanding or knowledge"

Edited May 30, 2014 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

no you would need 2000 years of study to achieve Kun's level of sorcery (see Sith Emperor).

 

I am establishing precidence (you do know the purpose of establishing precedence right?) for Affinities granting power beyond what the person has achieved through knowledge in other fields, would you prefer I use Koon as another example, or Cihgal, or Streen, Or Leia, I am using Kun as well his Sorcery powers going far away above and beyond his other abilities as well as i feel Vader's knowledge of the more classic abilities (he is not known for having any affinity for any abililties) which is pure knowledge is greater then Kun's but Kun's Sorcery knowledge is greater then Vader's more classic abilities literally showing greater understanding and knowledge of sorcery then any of his other abilities clearly caused by his affinity for sorcery.

I'm not sure how that makes sense then, the Sith Emperor had an affinity for Sith Sorcery too... a very strong affinity.

 

In order to establish a precedence that subject matter has to be universal, but in this case in simply isn't. Different powers work in different ways, and affinity for one power does not have the same impact as an affinity for another. Comparing abilities within totally different spheres is only going to lead to inaccurate examples.

 

Now, we can establish a precedence that innate ability gives you a prior knowledge and understanding if you will, of a particular power, yes. But that effects different powers on different ways because some powers rely on knowledge more than others. In this case tutanimis relies on knowledge far more than the Force Blast.

 

If you can provide an example of innate affinity for an ability that makes the wielder superior in terms of power than their potential, or current state of mastery allows, and can explain why this is so, then you can make such a claim. You could provide a hundred examples, but unless they are relevant your point would remain null I'm afraid.

 

I mean would you like to explain were exactly this raw power is coming from then? The sky? Its illogical. The fact of the matter is affinity, which provides knowledge and nothing else, simply cannot give him raw power.

 

In terms of knowledge, they offset each other I feel. Especially considering that Vader's knowledge of TK isn't all that better than Kun's - who can wield high level powers such as the Force Blast. And as I have said his knowledge of sorcery and his mastery of other powers in general, improves his knowledge of the "classical powers" as well.

 

But even if I accept all these points, it still wouldn't change the result. We could deem Sith Sorcery a non-factor and say Vader has a greater knowledge of the Force. But that won't change the fact that Kun's showings in TK surpass Vader's, demonstrating that despite all that, his is superior at applying his Force powers, he is more powerful.

The Raw power to wield it comes form their connection to the force. NOT their achieved power in other realms.

if you are going to talk about Raw power in this way here then we return once again to Anakin needing to be at the top of this list along with Leia and Galen above The emperor (are you getting it yet or do i need to bash my head against a wall longer.)

So let me get this straight:

 

Are you arguing that through sorcery and sorcery alone Kun is able to tap into higher levels of his Force potential (through greater understanding), in a way in which he cannot do with TK because he lacks that affinity boost?

 

Well that's great and all, but it is totally flawed in regards to the point you are trying to make. Because once that power is tapped into, it no longer becomes potential, but power, power he can wield. No it is not power he can wield through any other means, but that is still power - that comes from himself - that he can exert, and therefore valid in terms of a thread that deals with power. It is not potential, it is power, achieved through Sorcery, but power nonetheless.

 

Sure complain that maybe if Vader has Sith Sorcery he can expand on his abilities as a prationcer of the Force, but he doesn't I'm afraid, and his power without that falls short of Kun's as he is not able to vaporise individuals with TK alone.

 

EDIT: Your comparions are also flawed as well, if Galen Marek or Anakin Skywalker had a special power that allowed them to reach the heights of their potential, then yes those claims would in fact be valid. But they don't., this power is untapped. Kun's powers is not, Sith Sorcery is a means for him to tap into the heights of his power.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

I agree with Kun over Vader. So let's move on!

[tunewalker]

I'm not sure how that makes sense then, the Sith Emperor had an affinity for Sith Sorcery too... a very strong affinity.

 

In order to establish a precedence that subject matter has to be universal, but in this case in simply isn't. Different powers work in different ways, and affinity for one power does not have the same impact as an affinity for another. Comparing abilities within totally different spheres is only going to lead to inaccurate examples.

 

Now, we can establish a precedence that innate ability gives you a prior knowledge and understanding if you will, of a particular power, yes. But that effects different powers on different ways because some powers rely on knowledge more than others. In this case tutanimis relies on knowledge far more than the Force Blast.

 

If you can provide an example of innate affinity for an ability that makes the wielder superior in terms of power than their potential, or current state of mastery allows, and can explain why this is so, then you can make such a claim. You could provide a hundred examples, but unless they are relevant your point would remain null I'm afraid.

 

I mean would you like to explain were exactly this raw power is coming from then? The sky? Its illogical. The fact of the matter is affinity, which provides knowledge and nothing else, simply cannot give him raw power.

 

In terms of knowledge, they offset each other I feel. Especially considering that Vader's knowledge of TK isn't all that better than Kun's - who can wield high level powers such as the Force Blast. And as I have said his knowledge of sorcery and his mastery of other powers in general, improves his knowledge of the "classical powers" as well.

 

But even if I accept all these points, it still wouldn't change the result. We could deem Sith Sorcery a non-factor and say Vader has a greater knowledge of the Force. But that won't change the fact that Kun's showings in TK surpass Vader's, demonstrating that despite all that, his is superior at applying his Force powers, he is more powerful.So let me get this straight:

 

Are you arguing that through sorcery and sorcery alone Kun is able to tap into higher levels of his Force potential (through greater understanding), in a way in which he cannot do with TK because he lacks that affinity boost?

 

Well that's great and all, but it is totally flawed in regards to the point you are trying to make. Because once that power is tapped into, it no longer becomes potential, but power, power he can wield. No it is not power he can wield through any other means, but that is still power - that comes from himself - that he can exert, and therefore valid in terms of a thread that deals with power. It is not potential, it is power, achieved through Sorcery, but power nonetheless.

 

Sure complain that maybe if Vader has Sith Sorcery he can expand on his abilities as a prationcer of the Force, but he doesn't I'm afraid, and his power without that falls short of Kun's as he is not able to vaporise individuals with TK alone.

 

EDIT: Your comparions are also flawed as well, if Galen Marek or Anakin Skywalker had a special power that allowed them to reach the heights of their potential, then yes those claims would in fact be valid. But they don't., this power is untapped. Kun's powers is not, Sith Sorcery is a means for him to tap into the heights of his power.

 

And its not really through greater understanding. its through affinity, he feels it he doesnt understand it better then other things.... he feels it better his understanding is equal, his bodies feel and ability to access it is better.

 

Ok so I should start argueing that Leia was Equal to her brother because of her Mental powers were equal or greater then his.

 

I should Argue that Corran Horn had equal Control to Yoda thanks to his ACHIEVED power with Tutaminis and also should argue that he is potentially one of the strongest people here in Alter because of his power achieved with the Mind Trick skill thanks to his affinity for it.

 

Heck I am almost sure that Leia should be above Kyp Durron if we want to start talking about achieved power with powers that people have an affinity for, because she had better Mind trick abilities as well and mental barriers then Kyp did and aguably equal or stronger Wave based TK.

 

 

Edit: see edit above why "some powers require knowledge and other raw power" is BS.

Edited May 30, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Ok so I should start argueing that Leia was Equal to her brother because of her Mental powers were equal or greater then his.

 

I should Argue that Corran Horn had equal Control to Yoda thanks to his ACHIEVED power with Tutaminis and also should argue that he is potentially one of the strongest people here in Alter because of his power achieved with the Mind Trick skill thanks to his affinity for it.

 

Heck I am almost sure that Leia should be above Kyp Durron if we want to start talking about achieved power with powers that people have an affinity for, because she had better Mind trick abilities as well and mental barriers then Kyp did and aguably equal Wave based TK.

 

 

Edit: see edit above why "some powers require knowledge and other raw power" is BS.

 

Having greater skill or ability in one or two powers does not make someone superior on the whole to another. Else Tyvokka would be superior to Yoda simply because of his leet precognitive abilities.

 

This goes for everyone, mind you.

[tunewalker]

Having greater skill or ability in one or two powers does not make someone superior on the whole to another. Else Tyvokka would be superior to Yoda simply because of his leet precognitive abilities.

 

This goes for everyone, mind you.

 

Then why is it not going for Kun right now aka why is his sorcery being used as an arguement.

Edited May 30, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

Then why is it not going for Kun right now.

 

How should I know? I'm not paying attention to everything. Too busy writing my fan-fic.

[tunewalker]

How should I know? I'm not paying attention to everything. Too busy writing my fan-fic.

 

lol ok have fun with that .

[Beniboybling]

The Raw power to wield it comes form their connection to the force. NOT their achieved power in other realms.

if you are going to talk about Raw power in this way here then we return once again to Anakin needing to be at the top of this list along with Leia and Galen above The emperor (are you getting it yet or do i need to bash my head against a wall longer.)

 

 

Edit: read more of that.... and oh god....I dont even...... how to explain in a simpler manner for you to understand.

 

TK is both slightly concentrated energy and movement of wind currents, Force blasts is just energy. TK energy is by its nature is less concentrated and more spread out thus the damage caused by the energy is also less as it is not focused (think rays of light normal vs rays of light through a magnifieing glass) The amount of energy a TK push uses (largely not concentrated enough to be visible while also using energy to move air currents again not concentrated enough to be visible) to rip through a force users barriers and drop them on their butt is likely the same amount of energy expunged to straight kill with force blast as the energy isnt being wasted on moving air currents and that energy is much more concentrated onto a single point thus causing far more devistation on that point. This has JACK ALL to do with affinity and my Corran Horn/ Koon/ Streen/ Affinity arguement. This is how I know you are not understanding a single point of my arguement at all.

 

 

Edit: all Force powers are a product of both knowledge and Power. Did Luke fail to Lift the X-wing Because he lacked the "raw power" to do it?..... no he lacked the knowledge and understanding since he was clearly able to do it later in life. Did Galen Marek Fail to over power Sidious because he Lacked the Raw power with Force lightning? No its straight said that his connection was stronger and had he just had greater knowledge and understanding with the Force he would have been able to do it.

 

Affinity allows one to achieve power closer to their max potential as their understanding of that ability is naturally high enough that they can pull closer to their full "Raw Power" or in other words closer to their "Full Max potential" or limited more by "connection to the force or midi count then actual understanding or knowledge"

Firstly I have been reading very closely what you have said, and I have tried my best to understand the full scope of your point and I feel that I do. But I reach a different conclusion. However this argument you are bringing up is brand new, of that I am sure.

 

Secondly I accepted the importance of understanding/knowledge long ago, and I'd appreciate it if you in turn paid close attention to the arguments I am making. To quote myself:

Now I'm not going to deny that technical mastery is irrelevant in terms of acting with the Force, that is illogical. But it only acts as a gateway, knowledge, understanding etc. all these things are gateways to power. And so while they are indicative of one achieving power, being a gateway and all, they are inferior to actual displays of power, the end itself. Though that is a metaphorical estimate.

 

I'd also add to that that sometimes, often even, a deep technical understanding of the Force can open doors for the Force User, and allow them to take shortcuts i.e. perform particular feats with less exertion. Giving an illusion of power.

 

This is why I put then on a lower rung, I don't disregard them, but they are on a lower rung.

Now I am sure if we both keep cool heads there will be no further communication issues on either end.

 

Now, to address this new point. Which, as you said, is totally exclusive of your arguments concerning the notion that affinity gives one knowledge and understanding of the subject. Indeed we are now talking about the properties of the powers itself - which again has nothing to do with Sith Sorcery being an innate power.

 

Anyway a valid point, but I also feel that there is a threshold if you will were TK powers become more dominated by raw dark side energy than kinetic energy. That is why I brought up Force Destruction, a dark side power defined in terms of an outburst of dark side energy, in this case taking on a red aura. And looking at Marek's expression of this power the energy is again visible, this time taking the form of a blue aura. We might also refer to Satele Shan blasting Malgus, again recall the blue aura. And I don't think this is aesthetic, I think there comes a point were a TK attack becomes so powerful than it surpasses the capabilities of the kinetic energy around it (air can only do so much) and draws far more heavily, almost exclusively, on the Force, manifesting as tangible Force energy.

 

So in that sense I'd say a TK attack capable of vaporizing opponents would be at least 80% Force Energy and therefore on the same level of potency as a raw blast of dark side energy.

 

Now yes I admit that it still not as pure as a raw blast of Force energy, which is opaque among other things. But we must remember that kinetic energy, or rather the energy exerted manipulating that energy, is not a pure waste product, its an near equivalent exchange - Force energy being trade for kinetic energy. So that 20% of kinetic energy isn't null and void, more like worth 10% if not more of Force energy. So we are dealing with 90% or higher here.

 

This is why I feel that a comparison can be made. But I admit in my initial analysis that its tenuous, they are not the same, and you have a fair point, no matter how you spin it. And we should take that into account. But I made the comparison because I did not want to dismiss what in the end is a valid demonstration of Kun's power, he may be only able to tap into power of such levels with sorcery, but is still all him.

 

And even then, Vader hasn't vaporized anyone with a Force Wave, we see him using Force Waves in the Ghost Prison, there bodies aren't even torn apart a la Sidious, not injuries of that kind. Regardless of fact that a Force Blast will always have an edge over any TK attack, the fact that Vader isn't even on that level makes it irrelevant.

 

Basically I feel he still gets the edge, though I am willing to admit the comparison is inconclusive.

[tunewalker]

Firstly I have been reading very closely what you have said, and I have tried my best to understand the full scope of your point and I feel that I do. But I reach a different conclusion. However this argument you are bringing up is brand new, of that I am sure.

 

Secondly I accepted the importance of understanding/knowledge long ago, and I'd appreciate it if you in turn paid close attention to the arguments I am making. To quote myself:

Now I'm not going to deny that technical mastery is irrelevant in terms of acting with the Force, that is illogical. But it only acts as a gateway, knowledge, understanding etc. all these things are gateways to power. And so while they are indicative of one achieving power, being a gateway and all, they are inferior to actual displays of power, the end itself. Though that is a metaphorical estimate.

 

I'd also add to that that sometimes, often even, a deep technical understanding of the Force can open doors for the Force User, and allow them to take shortcuts i.e. perform particular feats with less exertion. Giving an illusion of power.

 

This is why I put then on a lower rung, I don't disregard them, but they are on a lower rung.

Now I am sure if we both keep cool heads there will be no further communication issues on either end.

 

Now, to address this new point. Which, as you said, is totally exclusive of your arguments concerning the notion that affinity gives one knowledge and understanding of the subject. Indeed we are now talking about the properties of the powers itself - which again has nothing to do with Sith Sorcery being an innate power.

 

Anyway a valid point, but I also feel that there is a threshold if you will were TK powers become more dominated by raw dark side energy than kinetic energy. That is why I brought up Force Destruction, a dark side power defined in terms of an outburst of dark side energy, in this case taking on a red aura. And looking at Marek's expression of this power the energy is again visible, this time taking the form of a blue aura. We might also refer to Satele Shan blasting Malgus, again recall the blue aura. And I don't think this is aesthetic, I think there comes a point were a TK attack becomes so powerful than it surpasses the capabilities of the kinetic energy around it (air can only do so much) and draws far more heavily, almost exclusively, on the Force, manifesting as tangible Force energy.

 

So in that sense I'd say a TK attack capable of vaporizing opponents would be at least 80% Force Energy and therefore on the same level of potency as a raw blast of dark side energy.

 

Now yes I admit that it still not as pure as a raw blast of Force energy, which is opaque among other things. But we must remember that kinetic energy, or rather the energy exerted manipulating that energy, is not a pure waste product, its an near equivalent exchange - Force energy being trade for kinetic energy. So that 20% of kinetic energy isn't null and void, more like worth 10% if not more of Force energy. So we are dealing with 90% or higher here.

 

This is why I feel that a comparison can be made. But I admit in my initial analysis that its tenuous, they are not the same, and you have a fair point, no matter how you spin it. And we should take that into account. But I made the comparison because I did not want to dismiss what in the end is a valid demonstration of Kun's power, he may be only able to tap into power of such levels with sorcery, but is still all him.

 

And even then, Vader hasn't vaporized anyone with a Force Wave, we see him using Force Waves in the Ghost Prison, there bodies aren't even torn apart a la Sidious, not injuries of that kind. Regardless of fact that a Force Blast will always have an edge over any TK attack, the fact that Vader isn't even on that level makes it irrelevant.

 

Basically I feel he still gets the edge, though I am willing to admit the comparison is inconclusive.

 

you know what I am going to get some sleep come back and read this fully in a bit, I know you have been reading my whole thing, but my points havent been getting acrossed entirely is what I meant.

 

This stuff here isnt new, or isnt intended to be new I feel i have said this multiple times already thats part of my issue, I think I am not being entirely clear (and their is a good possibility I am not fully understanding what you are trying to say either (same terms different meanings problems here you know) so I am going to get some sleep read this when I wake up... mull over it and try to cover what ever points I dont understand or I feel you miss understood when I am potentially more articulate about exactly what I am trying to say.

[LadyKulvax]

Then why is it not going for Kun right now aka why is his sorcery being used as an arguement.

 

Because you are assuming Sorcery is not indicative of Force Power when all evidence states this blanket statement is fundamentally flawed.

 

If Kun knew Essence Transfer and I used that as an example for why he is more powerful you would be absolutely right that it is all knowledge.

 

But we are not talking about Essence Transfer, Sith Sorcery clearly has levels of power required for sorcery of certain magnitudes, Exar Kun was nearing the apex of this, the lower tiers likely consist of things like alchemy and creating basic dark side beasts, whereas the higher tiers contain the massively complex rituals and such which allows for mass absorltion, etc...

 

If you aren't strong enough your power will destroy you, regardless of knowledge, many sorcery techniques require nothing more than raw power.

 

Because and this is the problem with your argument; there are many kinds of sorcery and clearly power is a definite requirement or everyone with an affinity for sorcery would go around sucking planets dry.

 

Take the likes from the Golden Age of the Sith, many of them were sorcerers but many of them were also weak and couldn't command the same levels of sorcery as the others like Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow.

 

You are generalising the requirements for sorcery as being the same all over, yet this is evidently incorrect.