DataBeaver Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) My argument is this. If you go into a cave knowing full well there are going to be members of the opposite faction trying to flag people but you go ahead and AOE anyways, than it's all on you. If it's a bug it'll get fixed when Bioware fixes it. If it's not a bug and it's intended gameplay mechanics than it's w/e. So, what's your view on the terms of service then? Is it just boring legalese that no one cares to read, and anything is allowed in the game as long as you manage to pull it off somehow? Edited January 24, 2014 by DataBeaver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 So, what's your view on the terms of service then? Is it just boring legalese that no one cares to read, and anything is allowed in the game as long as you manage to pull it off somehow? My view on the ToS is this. Unless you are actually hacking into the game or abusing a known exploit (again this pvp flag may be intentional or not) or saying considerable racist things, then you can do or say pretty much w/e because I've noticed this game and many other games tend to over look other offendable things unless it's one of those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbothirtytwo Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) Grats, R3no. You are finally on my ignore-list, too. You worked hard for it with your constant trolling everywhere, I give you that. Glad I never fed you. Yup, mine too. Too bad the ignore function wouldn't eliminate his quotes from others posts as well. He's never going to concede, even though I'm sure he knows now that he's wrong. Assuming that he actually believed his own BS to begin with, which is debatable. Put him on ignore and you'll be happier for it. Edited January 24, 2014 by jimbothirtytwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Yup, mine too. Too bad the ignore function wouldn't eliminate his quotes from others posts as well. He's never going to concede, even though I'm sure he knows now that he's wrong. Assuming that he actually believed his own BS to begin with, which is debatable. Put him on ignore and you'll be happier for it. Thank you for kindly admitting defeat. Don't you feel better now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DataBeaver Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 My view on the ToS is this. Unless you are actually hacking into the game or abusing a known exploit (again this pvp flag may be intentional or not) or saying considerable racist things, then you can do or say pretty much w/e because I've noticed this game and many other games tend to over look other offendable things unless it's one of those two. I'd like to present evidence that PvP flagging through AoE is unintentional. Exhibit A: patch notes for 1.1.4. "Using abilities with indirect targeting (such as area of effect abilities) will no longer cause players to be flagged for PvP if a PvP-flagged player from the opposing faction is within the ability's range, and the ability will have no effect on the PvP-flagged player." Exhibit B: A post by Amber Green from February 2012, in a thread titled "Why oh why can I hurt other players if I am not PvP flagged?". "Hi everyone. Thank you all for your patience and reports. We wanted to post in this thread to let you know that we have made this change with patch 1.1.4, which is now live on Public Test Server! You can read the patch notes here." I'm curious to hear how this affects your view of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keitzy Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 'Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPryde Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Thank you for kindly admitting defeat. Don't you feel better now? Putting someone on ignore is not necessarily admitting defeat. Putting someone on ignore can also mean "those assortment of words is so horribly flawed, stupid and biased, that I never want to read anything of that person again, so I do not waste any more time with their trolling.". In such a case, this would actually be a victory, not admitting defeat. Just saying. I am in no way implying that your posts are stupid or biased or trolling... other opinions however may vary on this topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamatsu Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) I'm curious to hear how this affects your view of the situation. I'd love to see if he actually replies to you. I'm still waiting for him to reply to my previous 2 post's where I was able to prove him wrong. Seems as soon as someone is able to prove him wrong he just ignores them and moves onto someone else' post/point and goes at them. And lol. his trolling is now up to 9 pages, with multiple people sticking him on ignore. heh. I do wonder what he will say - as it's shown that AoE's should not be flagging PvE players, yet are - which means it's a bug/unintentional. Which also means that those who are doing it are breaking the ToW as well (ie disturbing normal gameplay in a game region by abusing a bug / unintended feature). Edited January 24, 2014 by Kamatsu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 It's still your fault for knowingly using an AOE attack given the potential risks. No it is the fault of BW for not being able to figure out how to make it so that you cannot do damage period to someone else unless you first turn on your own flag. On a pve server you should not be forced to not use your most effective attacks when you are swarmed by 5+ mobs for fear of someone ganking you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'd like to present evidence that PvP flagging through AoE is unintentional. Exhibit A: patch notes for 1.1.4. "Using abilities with indirect targeting (such as area of effect abilities) will no longer cause players to be flagged for PvP if a PvP-flagged player from the opposing faction is within the ability's range, and the ability will have no effect on the PvP-flagged player." Exhibit B: A post by Amber Green from February 2012, in a thread titled "Why oh why can I hurt other players if I am not PvP flagged?". "Hi everyone. Thank you all for your patience and reports. We wanted to post in this thread to let you know that we have made this change with patch 1.1.4, which is now live on Public Test Server! You can read the patch notes here." I'm curious to hear how this affects your view of the situation. Let's see how does this affect my view. This shows that it was not intended and that it was fixed. Now someone else said that this became active again unknowingly and since that it is clearly the case than my view is unchanged. It's a bug and it'll get fixed when it gets fixed in the meantime doing what I've been preaching in this thread is your best bet to not getting flagged. 1.) Avoid using AOE's in caves where you know there will flagged people roaming about. Anywhere else is fine. 2.) Don't be scared to try other specs, these rakghouls don't require much damage to kill by wasting an AOE on them. You're free to ignore this if you want, but that's all on you when you get ganked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPryde Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 It's a bug and it'll get fixed when it gets fixed in the meantime doing what I've been preaching in this thread is your best bet to not getting flagged. 1.) Avoid using AOE's in caves where you know there will flagged people roaming about. Anywhere else is fine. 2.) Don't be scared to try other specs, these rakghouls don't require much damage to kill by wasting an AOE on them. You're free to ignore this if you want, but that's all on you when you get ganked. @1: If it is indeed a bug, then abusing the bug is exploiting. Exploiting is clearly against the rules. Not the PvE player needs to change their playstyle, but the PvP player does. The PvP player needs to stop absuing the exploit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screaming_Ziva Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I have done the dailies on two different characters as a 22 Guardian and as a 25 Sniper and I did not once get flagged or ganked. Learn to pay attention to your surroundings, otherwise you have no one but yourself to blame for failing. I thought the event was 25+. How did you do the dailies on a 22? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Putting someone on ignore is not necessarily admitting defeat. Putting someone on ignore can also mean "those assortment of words is so horribly flawed, stupid and biased, that I never want to read anything of that person again, so I do not waste any more time with their trolling.". In such a case, this would actually be a victory, not admitting defeat. Just saying. I am in no way implying that your posts are stupid or biased or trolling... other opinions however may vary on this topic But I'm not trolling, I'm stating my view and opinion on the matter. It's not my problem if I get ignored because they can't handle it. I happily welcome anyone who wants to put me on ignore to go ahead, it doesn't bother me at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I thought the event was 25+. How did you do the dailies on a 22? It's 20+ according to dulfy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 @1: If it is indeed a bug, then abusing the bug is exploiting. Exploiting is clearly against the rules. Not the PvE player needs to change their playstyle, but the PvP player does. The PvP player needs to stop absuing the exploit. Yup. So the person that is getting ganked has every right to be upset because the others are exploiting a known bug to cause them grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'd love to see if he actually replies to you. I'm still waiting for him to reply to my previous 2 post's where I was able to prove him wrong. Seems as soon as someone is able to prove him wrong he just ignores them and moves onto someone else' post/point and goes at them. And lol. his trolling is now up to 9 pages, with multiple people sticking him on ignore. heh. I do wonder what he will say - as it's shown that AoE's should not be flagging PvE players, yet are - which means it's a bug/unintentional. Which also means that those who are doing it are breaking the ToW as well (ie disturbing normal gameplay in a game region by abusing a bug / unintended feature). Grats you proved me wrong about WoW after I saw it the other way for so long. Happy? Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 @1: If it is indeed a bug, then abusing the bug is exploiting. Exploiting is clearly against the rules. Not the PvE player needs to change their playstyle, but the PvP player does. The PvP player needs to stop absuing the exploit. If someone can exploit something and get away with it they are going to keep doing it and it's going to spread until it gets addressed. Until it gets addressed if the PvE player refuses to adapt to survive than it's all on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPryde Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) If someone can exploit something and get away with it they are going to keep doing it and it's going to spread until it gets addressed. Until it gets addressed if the PvE player refuses to adapt to survive than it's all on them. Erm.. The rules are different. "Getting away with it" is not in the rules. If something is a known bug and is not working as intended, then it is not allowed to be used. No matter how much it spreads and no matter how many people do it, the exploiter is in the wrong and the victim is free to take any action they seem apropriate, including to still not change their playstyle and instead report the abuser. And also to use the forum to ask for the exploit to be solved. Edited January 24, 2014 by JPryde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamatsu Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) BTW, still waiting for you to name any other MMO's which allow PvP'ers to abuse mechanics/bugs/whatever to gank/harass PvE players doing PvE activities on a PvE server. We know WoW & Rift are off the list. So what's left? Eve? Nope, as it's 100% PvP. Tera? From a quick look, nope it has protected PvE just as WoW/Rift does. UO? Nope, it's 100% open world PvP Neverwinter? Does not have open world PvP. Final Fantasy - A Realm Reborn? No open world PvP. Star Trek Online? No open world PvP. -- others? So far can't find any western MMO that allows PvP'ers to flag PvE players doing PvE activities on a PvE server. As for Asian MMO's then I couldn't say as I didn't look at any of them. And 'western' mmo's which have open world PvP were PvP games (ie Eve Online) or focused on open world PvP (ie UO). Edited January 24, 2014 by Kamatsu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DataBeaver Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 If someone can exploit something and get away with it they are going to keep doing it and it's going to spread until it gets addressed. Until it gets addressed if the PvE player refuses to adapt to survive than it's all on them. While it makes a certain amount of sense to avoid actions that may get you flagged, I disagree with labeling the victim as guilty. This what I was alluding to with my real world examples: if you get robbed or murdered, a crime has happened, and you are not guilty. The robber or murderer is. Getting away with it does not absolve them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Erm.. The rules are different. "Getting away with it" is not in the rules. If something is a known bug and is not working as intended, then it is not allowed to be used. No matter how much it spreads and no matter how many people do it, the exploiter is in the wrong and the victim is free to take any action they seem apropriate, including to still not change their playstyle and instead report the abuser. And also to use the forum to ask for the exploit to be solved. You're missing the point. If someone can get away with something they know is against the rules, they're going to keep doing it until they caught and they'll spread it to their friends and so on until a large number of people do it. If the victim knows full well they run the risk of getting flagged with their current playstyle and goes ahead anyways and get's flagged, it's still their fault for not avoiding it. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it the exploiter wrong for doing it when it's against the rules? Yes, but it's also the victims fault for knowing full well what would happen but doing it anyways. Adapt and overcome until it gets fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 While it makes a certain amount of sense to avoid actions that may get you flagged, I disagree with labeling the victim as guilty. This what I was alluding to with my real world examples: if you get robbed or murdered, a crime has happened, and you are not guilty. The robber or murderer is. Getting away with it does not absolve them. But again that's where the real world argument falls apart. All the victim loses in a video game, is time, nothing else. You can't compare it to the real world because yes the exploiter is exploiting something against the rules but all you lose is time for it. Where as in the real world it's way much more dire than losing time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 BTW, still waiting for you to name any other MMO's which allow PvP'ers to abuse mechanics/bugs/whatever to gank/harass PvE players doing PvE activities on a PvE server. We know WoW & Rift are off the list. So what's left? Eve? Nope, as it's 100% PvP. Tera? From a quick look, nope it has protected PvE just as WoW/Rift does. UO? Nope, it's 100% open world PvP Neverwinter? Does not have open world PvP. Final Fantasy - A Realm Reborn? No open world PvP. Star Trek Online? No open world PvP. -- others? So far can't find any western MMO that allows PvP'ers to flag PvE players doing PvE activities on a PvE server. As for Asian MMO's then I couldn't say as I didn't look at any of them. And 'western' mmo's which have open world PvP were PvP games (ie Eve Online) or focused on open world PvP (ie UO). Hello Kitty Island Adventure is a known gank fest on their pve servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPryde Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) Eve? Nope, as it's 100% PvP. Actually in EVE this was abused pretty much. People were dropping trash cans with a cheap item in it in newbie areas (1.0) and were naming their cans "free stuff for newbies".... trying to get the newbie to take anything from the can... which the system sees as thievery, allowing the owner of the trash can to open fire at will on the "thief". So yes, unintentional flagging was part of EVE... for a long time however it was openly stated as "EVE is harsh and cruel and you can get killed the moment you undock!". Later it was then labeled absue and made illegal, as far as I remember. Edited January 24, 2014 by JPryde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Hello Kitty Island Adventure is a known gank fest on their pve servers. You played it ? How is it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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