Ion Railgun

[SammyGStatus]

Alright, well I just wanted to say that after playing for 6 hours tonight of GSF, I'm tired. I will say one thing about the gunship that is HUGELY OP. The Ion Railgun. One hit from it drains both firepower AND engine power, in addition to making you crawl for 10 seconds? Nope. I use the slug and there is nothing wrong with that kind of a kill, but when there is one ion cannon that boosts, scopes, quick dings and drains, then launches torpedos (when you have no energy and cant use either barrel roll your shield), it's really lame. That is a completely cheap crippling move.

[Sadishist]

Every weapon that kills me is OP. QQ Edited January 23, 2014 by Sadishist

[Verain]

Alright, well I just wanted to say that after playing for 6 hours tonight of GSF, I'm tired. I will say one thing about the gunship that is HUGELY OP. The Ion Railgun. One hit from it drains both firepower AND engine power, in addition to making you crawl for 10 seconds? Nope.

 

Yup, as it turns out.

 

The nerf to this weapon is that there will be a minimum charge up required for all railguns. We'll see whether that messes with normal railgun strats or not, based on the charge required.

 

If you aren't aware of the ion, you will get hit. If he's using the slow, be grateful.

 

when there is one ion cannon that boosts, scopes, quick dings and drains, then launches torpedos (when you have no energy and cant use either barrel roll your shield)

 

So, wait. One gunship has both ion railgun AND torpedo? Nope. You got teamed up on and weren't even aware enough to notice the entire second ship.

[Kuciwalker]

Alright, well I just wanted to say that after playing for 6 hours tonight of GSF, I'm tired. I will say one thing about the gunship that is HUGELY OP. The Ion Railgun. One hit from it drains both firepower AND engine power, in addition to making you crawl for 10 seconds? Nope. I use the slug and there is nothing wrong with that kind of a kill, but when there is one ion cannon that boosts, scopes, quick dings and drains, then launches torpedos (when you have no energy and cant use either barrel roll your shield), it's really lame. That is a completely cheap crippling move.

 

L2P. Gunship duels are 100% about knowing how to deal with the ion cannon. As long as you stay near cover and/or keep an engine energy reserve it is NOT a death sentence.

[Kuciwalker]

If you get hit by ion cannon and lose all of your energy, pop distortion shield (you did buy it to 6s, right?). That buys you enough time to wait out the lockout and regen just enough energy to barrel roll. Use barrel roll to get the hell out of dodge, then reengage when you are in a more favorable position.

 

If distortion field is on CD, or you haven't maxed it yet, then get behind cover and again, regen enough energy for a barrel roll.

 

If you don't have distortion field and you don't have cover and you don't have an engine energy reserve, you are probably screwed. Your best bet here is to hope someone distracts the enemy gunship for long enough for you to escape. Your next best bet is to make an oblique approach towards the other gunship - get closer while maintaining a respectable angular velocity (this only works if you are within ~8km). Don't close to within 4km unless you are well outside the firing arc of burst laser. Once you are that close, you are in great shape - you can probably dodge long enough to, again, regain enough energy to barrel roll away.

[Kuciwalker]

The succinct version of the above is: know where the other gunship is. Don't close to within 15km on unfavorable terms. Constantly scan your surroundings for new gunships. Always have a plan for how to deal with a gunship that shows up. Edited January 23, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[JadedJasper]

That there are counters doesn't mean something isn't broken. Fortunately Bioware is a bit more on the ball than you, which is why they're nerfing it.

[Verain]

That there are counters doesn't mean something isn't broken. Fortunately Bioware is a bit more on the ball than you, which is why they're nerfing it.

 

The one nerf we see on railguns should eliminate the "ion love tap", which is likely only part of what the OP is complaining about. Depending on how much charge is needed, it could change the way we shoot railguns entirely, and how we talent.

 

Note the core of OP's argument- that it's unfair to be hit with an ion cannon, the ship swaps to proton, and then follows up with that- is impossible in the current game. The one gunship with ion cannon doesn't have proton, and the one gunship with proton doesn't have ion cannon. So already his account is at least missing an entire second ship, meaning his encounter was at minimum 2 on 1.

 

(you did buy it to 6s, right?)

 

The 6 second version is choice in a meta filled with gunships, but the missile break can be chosen otherwise. In any event, the six second's whole game is to ensure that you have enough time to recharge, but the 3 second one can often buy you four and a half of the needed six seconds all by itself (remember that the gunship likely puts a small amount of charge on it, plus there is a cooldown)

Edited January 23, 2014 by Verain

[Kuciwalker]

The one nerf we see on railguns should eliminate the "ion love tap", which is likely only part of what the OP is complaining about. Depending on how much charge is needed, it could change the way we shoot railguns entirely, and how we talent.

 

Note the core of OP's argument- that it's unfair to be hit with an ion cannon, the ship swaps to proton, and then follows up with that- is impossible in the current game. The one gunship with ion cannon doesn't have proton, and the one gunship with proton doesn't have ion cannon. So already his account is at least missing an entire second ship, meaning his encounter was at minimum 2 on 1.

 

I in fact remember this particular kill. I saw the other guy's proton hit just before I released my slug shot that would have killed her anyway.

 

The 6 second version is choice in a meta filled with gunships, but the missile break can be chosen otherwise.

 

No, just no. You already have a missile break. That missile break should be enough to get you around cover, saving you from future missiles. 6s of immunity to blasters is too good to give up.

 

In any event, the six second's whole game is to ensure that you have enough time to recharge, but the 3 second one can often buy you four and a half of the needed six seconds all by itself (remember that the gunship likely puts a small amount of charge on it, plus there is a cooldown)

 

Yes, the 3 seconds can help. But it works best if you have a plan for what you are going do do in the following 3 seconds.

[Kuciwalker]

That there are counters doesn't mean something isn't broken. Fortunately Bioware is a bit more on the ball than you, which is why they're nerfing it.

 

There is no nerf in the patch notes. Is this just wishful thinking, or do you have a source?

 

TBH, I think the "love tap" problem is massively overstated. Actually draining all energy and keeping the lockout up requires about 80% of the attention/weapon energy of a gunship, and even that doesn't work against good pilots (I escape the ion trap far more often than I succumb to it). To be perfectly balanced, that number should be pushed up to around 100% - it is completely fair that one ship, by otherwise neutralizing itself, can also neutralize another ship for the same duration.

[Sadishist]

There is no nerf in the patch notes. Is this just wishful thinking, or do you have a source?

 

I think it's in the PTS forum. I don't mind the nerf, even though I hardly think the ion railgun is OP and it's a L2P whining issue.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Sadishist

[Kuciwalker]

Yeah, I see it now. It's not updated at http://www.swtor.com/test-center/patchnotes

 

Does anyone know the actual minimum charge applied? If it's something like 1s, then ion stunlock is very much alive, except maybe vs high-evasion scouts who will dodge out of it through sheer luck fairly often.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[Armonddd]

L2P. Gunship duels are 100% about knowing how to deal with the ion cannon. As long as you stay near cover and/or keep an engine energy reserve it is NOT a death sentence.

 

lol, no

 

turrets say hi

 

No, just no. You already have a missile break. That missile break should be enough to get you around cover, saving you from future missiles. 6s of immunity to blasters is too good to give up.

 

Not to derail the thread or anything, but one missile lock isn't nearly enough when there's three of them and one of you, which I've gone into more often than not.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Armonddd

[Kuciwalker]

lol, no

 

turrets say hi

 

Why are you next to an enemy turret-supported satellite when an enemy gunship is in range?

 

Not to derail the thread or anything, but one missile lock isn't nearly enough when there's three of them and one of you, which I've gone into more often than not.

 

Every single asteroid, satellite, and mesa is a missile break free for you to use. In addition, if you close to dogfighting range it is even easier to break someone's lock. I am virtually never hit with a missile I didn't choose to let hit me, and I am frequently ganged up on.

[Verain]

I in fact remember this particular kill. I saw the other guy's proton hit just before I released my slug shot that would have killed her anyway.

 

Remember this kill? You certainly didn't pilot the nonexistent gunship with both ion railguns and torps that the OP is referring to.

 

No, just no. You already have a missile break. That missile break should be enough to get you around cover, saving you from future missiles. 6s of immunity to blasters is too good to give up.

 

The missile break and the three seconds are both valuable. I consider the missile break far too important to give up. Without a second missile break you have to be near cover pretty much at all times. With it, you can be in an exposed area, get easier and more relevant kills, and kite 1-3 players around indefinitely when they come to chase you, versus needed to boost from asteroid to asteroid.

 

If you meta is heavy with ion gunships, then yes, the 6 second disto field has a place. Likewise if all your gunship hunters run rocket pods, which can be evaded but have no lock to break. But against the a field of lock-happy ships, the missile break renders you all but immune to missiles, and lets you go places you couldn't without it.

 

 

There is no nerf in the patch notes. Is this just wishful thinking, or do you have a source?

 

As you found later in thread, the nerf is that all railguns require "a minimum charge" to fire. That presumably will end the love tap, but I'm concerned that a ship hit to 5% may have like 2 seconds to escape or something absurd. Basically, like you, I'm wondering what the minimum charge is.

[Kuciwalker]

Remember this kill? You certainly didn't pilot the nonexistent gunship with both ion railguns and torps that the OP is referring to.

 

I remember the kill that the OP mistakenly believed was from a gunship with an ion railgun and torps. I was the gunship that made the ion shot, and a second ship - a strike fighter - launched the torpedo that scored the kill. I saw the torpedo hit and kill her while I was zoomed in on her and charging my slug railgun.

 

The missile break and the three seconds are both valuable. I consider the missile break far too important to give up.

 

Unfortunately, you're wrong.

 

Without a second missile break you have to be near cover pretty much at all times.

 

Important fights almost invariably happen near cover. If you have to fight away from cover, the long range missiles have enormous lock-on times (so who cares, your BR will be up again before they hit) and if someone is using a short range missile, it's easy enough to break the lock just by flying around them.

 

With it, you can be in an exposed area, get easier and more relevant kills, and kite 1-3 players around indefinitely when they come to chase you, versus needed to boost from asteroid to asteroid.

 

If you are kiting over long distances it costs basically nothing to do so around LOS breakers. If you are kiting over long distances then you only really care about long-range missiles, which have long lock-on times.

 

If you meta is heavy with ion gunships, then yes, the 6 second disto field has a place. Likewise if all your gunship hunters run rocket pods, which can be evaded but have no lock to break. But against the a field of lock-happy ships, the missile break renders you all but immune to missiles, and lets you go places you couldn't without it.

 

Again, per my experience (which only rarely involves competent enemy gunships, and frequently involves swarming enemy scouts) the single lock break from BR is quite sufficient to avoid all missiles.

[Armonddd]

Why are you next to an enemy turret-supported satellite when an enemy gunship is in range?

 

No - your own turrets. If you're trying to defend a satellite against attackers and an enemy gunship comes into play, he'll just love tap your turrets and you're ****ed.

 

Every single asteroid, satellite, and mesa is a missile break free for you to use. In addition, if you close to dogfighting range it is even easier to break someone's lock. I am virtually never hit with a missile I didn't choose to let hit me, and I am frequently ganged up on.

 

Most, but not all, important fights occur around satellites. However, there's a lot of important space around the satellites themselves - and with the exceptions of C on Lost Shipyards and B on Kuat Mesas, there isn't that much cover to be had. I tend to fight in these areas (because anyone who gets too close to a satellite dies in my matches).

 

When I do fight on the satellites, there's often enough people around that they can afford to go above and below the satellite so someone always has line of sight for a missile lock. Further, it's really hard to maintain cover from all angles for 1.3 seconds while also scoring a kill.

 

Another factor is that I never choose to simply let a missile hit me. I don't think there's a single secondary weapon in the game that isn't a huge threat to long-term survivability (because they all have shield piercing except for sab probe, which is basically a kill). Any hull damage is a threat, because you can't afford to die more than a few times if you want to pull big numbers.

 

In my case, 6s distortion field is not an autopick. It's still really good and I'm constantly changing my mind on which upgrade I want, but it's not autopick like you seem to think it is.

 

All of that said, I've facecharged plenty of gunships with 3s distortion field. It's enough to block a couple slugs or multiple ion taps, and with the boost, you really don't need much more than that, so this whole discussion is kind of moot.

[JadedJasper]

Important fights almost invariably happen near cover. If you have to fight away from cover, the long range missiles have enormous lock-on times (so who cares, your BR will be up again before they hit) and if someone is using a short range missile, it's easy enough to break the lock just by flying around them.

While I agree that the +3s Distortion Field upgrade is better than the missile break, it's not true that Barrel Roll will be up fast enough to protect you from repeated locks from long range missiles.

 

Concussion Missiles cycle fast enough at 5.5s to slip in between Barrel Rolls. And if someone is using Protons they're probably in a Pike, where they can easily catch people depending on Barrel Roll out by alternating Protons and Concussions. The only protection is either having terrain handy, or knowing where the launcher is so you can Barrel Roll or Boost into close range.

 

If I faced more players good at using missiles I'd probably switch to the missile break too. Which version is preferred might well depend upon which server you're on.

Edited January 23, 2014 by JadedJasper

[JadedJasper]

Another factor is that I never choose to simply let a missile hit me. I don't think there's a single secondary weapon in the game that isn't a huge threat to long-term survivability (because they all have shield piercing except for sab probe, which is basically a kill). Any hull damage is a threat, because you can't afford to die more than a few times if you want to pull big numbers.

Sabotage Probe has 100% Shield Piercing, though the damage is light.

[Kuciwalker]

Most, but not all, important fights occur around satellites. However, there's a lot of important space around the satellites themselves - and with the exceptions of C on Lost Shipyards and B on Kuat Mesas, there isn't that much cover to be had. I tend to fight in these areas (because anyone who gets too close to a satellite dies in my matches).

 

Kuat A: you have the south superstructure directly adjacent to the satellite, and the north superstructure within sprinting distance

Kuat B: free cover everywhere

Kuat C: there is a mesa due north of the satellite, and several mining drills around it

Lost A: multiple asteroids within sprinting distance of the satellite

Lost B: this is the most open area, and admittedly has little cover. Running here means you basically have to disengage.

Kuat C: free cover everywhere

 

When I do fight on the satellites, there's often enough people around that they can afford to go above and below the satellite so someone always has line of sight for a missile lock.

 

Flying through the gap between the two solar panels clears you for almost every angle, and you can follow that up with a very quick boost along an axial revolution around the satellite if absolutely necessary.

 

Another factor is that I never choose to simply let a missile hit me. I don't think there's a single secondary weapon in the game that isn't a huge threat to long-term survivability (because they all have shield piercing except for sab probe, which is basically a kill).

 

You shouldn't eat every cluster missile, but it's not the end of the world either if you let one through. It's a matter of priorities. And even 1.3s is a decent amount of time in many situations to LOS a lock.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[JadedJasper]

Flying through the gap between the two solar panels clears you for almost every angle, and you can follow that up with a very quick boost along an axial revolution around the satellite if absolutely necessary.

Yeah, that's a common defense I see when I fly a Pike. It's somewhat effective, but doesn't cover you from the sides. In a situation like that you boost to the side, lock with a Concussion, then follow with a Proton after they barrel roll away.

 

This defense also leaves you as Gunship bait. Long range missiles often work best in synergy with Gunships in my experience.

[Kuciwalker]

There is an extremely small solid angle that maintains LOS on you through that maneuver - if the person has even a little bit of inclination relative to the plane of the panels, they will see you go over or under a panel.

 

And if you are being hunted by gunships that makes the 6s distortion even more valuable.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Kuciwalker

[JadedJasper]

No, really -- I do this to people all the time. The angle is not nearly as small as you suggest, it's just that people rarely take advantage of it.

 

And I disagree about the +3s vs. Gunships. 3s is plenty when rushing a Gunship, and while you chase people off into space it's very frustrating to have their teammate repeatedly lock you so you have to break off, and then the gunship snipes you while you evade.

 

It's not often that you see such cooperation, but when you do the extra missile break is damn handy.

[Verain]

Yeah, that's a common defense I see when I fly a Pike. It's somewhat effective, but doesn't cover you from the sides. In a situation like that you boost to the side, lock with a Concussion, then follow with a Proton after they barrel roll away.

 

So hang on. Someone is rolling around a sat and flies between wings, then crosses from bottom to top OR goes over the bottom. Explain how you turn this into first a concussion lock, and then a torp lock?

[Verain]

And if you are being hunted by gunships that makes the 6s distortion even more valuable.

 

I think your meta has more gunships than mine. I agree completely that the 6 second distortion is generally superior versus gunships, even the new gunships with the railguns. But in my experience, I pretty much constantly have 1-2 people chasing me around trying to lock missiles. The only ones who don't are throwing out those little yellow party streamers.

 

 

I simply think your play experience is different than mine. If you came to Basion, I'm pretty sure you'd click on that missile lock break instantly, and presumably I would swap over to extra shield in your meta as well.