Sharee Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) As it is the effective HP of a strike fighter is ~half that of a scout when factoring in evasion. I disagree. Compare a flashfire modded for evasion to a star guard modded for shield strength. Flashfire: evasion 41% shield 1040 hull 950 damage resistance 0 effective hp: (1040+950)*(1+0.41)=2805 HP Star guard: evasion 5% shield 2520 hull 1450 damage resistance 5% effective HP: (2520+1450)*(1+0.5+0.5)=4376 HP It is the scout that has ~64% of the strike fighter's effective HP, not the other way around. Also, the scout will only have ~64% of the strike fighter's shield regen rate (65 vs 99) (you could use different components and get slightly different numbers, but the strike fighter will always have more effective HP than the scout) [EDIT] The math above is wrong. See Kuciwalkers post below for the correct one. But the conclusion is still the same - a strike fighter does not have ~half the effective HP of a scout. Edited January 14, 2014 by Sharee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVindictus Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Its 41% max passive evasion. And in many scenarios it isn't nearly that much. For instance burst laser at short range with pinpointing has 121% passive accuracy. You can increase it further with a very long lasting(20 seconds) active ability (wingman) for another 20% accuracy boost, neutralizing the passive evasion completely. It's still very noticable when I'm charging up a shot dead on a scout that is still under the eaves of a satellite. They're literally motionless, should be an easy hit right? I have 109% accuracy, but sure enough, about 1/3 of my shots miss, even on a motionless target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVindictus Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I disagree. Compare a flashfire modded for evasion to a star guard modded for shield strength. Flashfire: evasion 41% shield 1040 hull 950 damage resistance 0 effective hp: (1040+950)*(1+0.41)=2805 HP Star guard: evasion 5% shield 2520 hull 1450 damage resistance 5% effective HP: (2520+1450)*(1+0.5+0.5)=4376 HP It is the scout that has ~64% of the strike fighter's effective HP, not the other way around. Also, the scout will only have ~64% of the strike fighter's shield regen rate (65 vs 99) (you could use different components and get slightly different numbers, but the strike fighter will always have more effective HP than the scout) You're not factoring in shield pen. Evasion works against shield pen, directional shields do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharee Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) You're not factoring in shield pen. Evasion works against shield pen, directional shields do not. I am not factoring shield pen because i am calculating effective HP. There are weapons that do not have shield pen. If i factored that in, i would need to calculate effective HP against every weapon separately, and that's kinda beyond the scope of a quick post whose main purpose was to disprove that a strike has half effective hp of a scout. Edited January 14, 2014 by Sharee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinseia Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I'm new to GSF, been playing since the previous weekend. I just recently found out that it was the Gunship that was "sniping me". I could not agree more about them being the worst thing in this game-mode. They are not about dogfighting or flying, they're about cheap kills and lazy pilots. Its not a matter of them being defeat-able or not. Its about the people who hide behind them for cheap thrills, who have NO regard for flying and dogtfighting. EA should be ashamed for having invented such a cheap cheap mechanic to this mode that was supposed to be about free-form DOGFIGHTING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuciwalker Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I disagree. Compare a flashfire modded for evasion to a star guard modded for shield strength. Flashfire: evasion 41% shield 1040 hull 950 damage resistance 0 effective hp: (1040+950)*(1+0.41)=2805 HP Star guard: evasion 5% shield 2520 hull 1450 damage resistance 5% effective HP: (2520+1450)*(1+0.5+0.5)=4376 HP It is the scout that has ~64% of the strike fighter's effective HP, not the other way around. Also, the scout will only have ~64% of the strike fighter's shield regen rate (65 vs 99) (you could use different components and get slightly different numbers, but the strike fighter will always have more effective HP than the scout) Your math is wrong. Flashfire effective hp: (1040 + 950) / (1 - 0.41) = 3373 HP Star Guard effective HP: (2520 + 1450 / (1 - 0.05)) / (1 - 0.05) = 4259 HP That comes out to a Flashfire having 79% of the EHP of the Star Guard, a much more favorable comparison. Additionally, the Flashfire comes out far ahead when you factor in shield piercing at low HP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharee Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Your math is wrong. Flashfire effective hp: (1040 + 950) / (1 - 0.41) = 3373 HP Star Guard effective HP: (2520 + 1450 / (1 - 0.05)) / (1 - 0.05) = 4259 HP That comes out to a Flashfire having 79% of the EHP of the Star Guard, a much more favorable comparison. Yeah you are right. Serves me well for making calculations on the side while at work. Additionally, the Flashfire comes out far ahead when you factor in shield piercing at low HP. Using your math (hopefully right this time), assuming a hypothetical weapon with 100% shield piercing: strike hp: (1450 / (1-0.05)) /(1-0.05) = 1607 scout hp: 950 / (1-0.41) = 1610 That doesn't seem like the flashfire comes out far ahead. Especially considering there is no 100% shield piercing weapon that would respect evasion. At low hp(meaning both crafts are so low that they can be oneshot) the scout has it better of course, but then that's not really a fair comparison, as you basically compare a strike fighter with his advantage(high hp) removed, to a scout with his advantage(evasion) still intact. Edited January 14, 2014 by Sharee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVindictus Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I'm new to GSF, been playing since the previous weekend. I just recently found out that it was the Gunship that was "sniping me". I could not agree more about them being the worst thing in this game-mode. They are not about dogfighting or flying, they're about cheap kills and lazy pilots. Its not a matter of them being defeat-able or not. Its about the people who hide behind them for cheap thrills, who have NO regard for flying and dogtfighting. EA should be ashamed for having invented such a cheap cheap mechanic to this mode that was supposed to be about free-form DOGFIGHTING. It's about being a support class. I watch the battles around satellites and I either hinder ships with ion cannon, or snipe them if they're not actively engaged with a teammate to kill them myself but realistically, I'm not chasing kills, I'm defending satellites and helping my team take them, I clear turrets from a safe distance in 1 hit, but I still need those strikes and scouts to get in there and engage, and flush out ships humping the satellite. I mostly choose to do it because I hate ring around the rosie fights that happen when you have to dogfight scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinseia Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) It's about being a support class. I watch the battles around satellites and I either hinder ships with ion cannon, or snipe them if they're not actively engaged with a teammate to kill them myself but realistically, I'm not chasing kills, I'm defending satellites and helping my team take them, I clear turrets from a safe distance in 1 hit, but I still need those strikes and scouts to get in there and engage, and flush out ships humping the satellite. I mostly choose to do it because I hate ring around the rosie fights that happen when you have to dogfight scouts. EXACTLY. You hate dogfighting. You're just looking for quick thrills with a cheap game mechanic that should not have ever been put into this game mode. Gunship pilots are gutless, talentless, trolls. There's no way around it. Thats all there is to it. Edited January 14, 2014 by Sinseia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elly_Dawn Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 i don't fly a Gunship, i'm a Scout pilot all the way... but, i will not deny that the Gunship has it's place on the field, i dunno who you're calling gutless when you wanna remove a hazard from the field, that sounds pretty gutless to me... i get out there and do my job as part of the team if i get hit by a GS so be it that's part of the hazards of flying a tin-can... to me it's no different than any other hazard on the field, like asteroids and steel bars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okiobe Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I think gunships play a support role and they are good at breaking defenses at a node when they are protected. As the overall skill and knowledge of the mechanics increases they will be essential in breaking node defenses. Two highly skilled players can circle a satellite the whole match without being able to kill each other. The gunship breaks the cycle and makes the battle more dynamic. Personally, I never play gunships but I'm happy when my team has one or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain_Turinbar Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I think gunships play a support role and they are good at breaking defenses at a node when they are protected. As the overall skill and knowledge of the mechanics increases they will be essential in breaking node defenses. Two highly skilled players can circle a satellite the whole match without being able to kill each other. The gunship breaks the cycle and makes the battle more dynamic. Personally, I never play gunships but I'm happy when my team has one or two. That **** can be frustrating. I've been at a sat before and been in that exact situation. Killed turrets but cant' capture sat since there is someone hugging it so close and then you just play the game of hide and seek. Normally it doesn't last long-someone boosts out and comes back to try to break it up but one time I swear it went on 5 minutes where we just kept mirroring each other and couldn't get a shot off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinseia Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 i don't fly a Gunship, i'm a Scout pilot all the way... but, i will not deny that the Gunship has it's place on the field, i dunno who you're calling gutless when you wanna remove a hazard from the field, that sounds pretty gutless to me... i get out there and do my job as part of the team if i get hit by a GS so be it that's part of the hazards of flying a tin-can... to me it's no different than any other hazard on the field, like asteroids and steel bars... Well you have your cute little pink opinion ^.^ all to yourself. And I have my own. And I believe Gunships were added solely as a way for talentless "pilots" to get cheap kills and quick thrills, to help keep them playing and help keep their shallow sense of worth going. Since you know, they couldn't hack-it in a dogfight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renegadeimp Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Well you have your cute little pink opinion ^.^ all to yourself. And I have my own. And I believe Gunships were added solely as a way for talentless "pilots" to get cheap kills and quick thrills, to help keep them playing and help keep their shallow sense of worth going. Since you know, they couldn't hack-it in a dogfight. Opinions are like ******es. Everyone has one and they all stink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renegadeimp Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Also, little tip. Dogfighting doesnt require much skill at all, and is much easier to play than a gunship. That begs the question. If you are getting schooled by a gunship, why are you still dogfighting and not going after said gunship? Sounds more like a learn to play issue than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalshion Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 The problem with the gunships, really, is the railgun. It's a no-delay weapon: the shot literally moves instantaneously from the firing point to the target. There is no chance for it to be evaded. Actually no, it can be evaded. Have done so in a scout and strikefighter a few times when going up against a gunship and I've had players evade my own shots while I'm using a gunship. Its all about timing, and a little bit of guess-work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain_Turinbar Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I don't think they are OP at all. I may question their place in the game lore-wise and game-wise (a "sniper" class seems strange in a space battle) but there are many effective ways to deal with them. The only thing that stinks is when you are in a tight dogfight and blam, nailed by a railgun because you're so distracted. That's the risk you take though being out in the open; I'm sure they hate it when they are scoped in on someone and I start ripping into them with blasters and missiles too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVindictus Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 EXACTLY. You hate dogfighting. You're just looking for quick thrills with a cheap game mechanic that should not have ever been put into this game mode. Gunship pilots are gutless, talentless, trolls. There's no way around it. Thats all there is to it. No, I hate Tier 2 scouts. Otherwise I'd play strike fighters more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegoUniverseBC Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Master your ship = No QQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVindictus Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I think gunships play a support role and they are good at breaking defenses at a node when they are protected. As the overall skill and knowledge of the mechanics increases they will be essential in breaking node defenses. Two highly skilled players can circle a satellite the whole match without being able to kill each other. The gunship breaks the cycle and makes the battle more dynamic. Personally, I never play gunships but I'm happy when my team has one or two. Killing or disabling satellite humpers who are flying in circles around the satellite are what we do best., as long as you return the favor and flush out the guys parked under the skirts out of LoS we can help each other out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain_Turinbar Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Killing or disabling satellite humpers who are flying in circles around the satellite are what we do best., as long as you return the favor and flush out the guys parked under the skirts out of LoS we can help each other out. I love flushing out those guys that completely stop under the satellite skirt. When you approach them behind blasting away they freak out and crash sometimes, hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVindictus Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 I don't think they are OP at all. I may question their place in the game lore-wise and game-wise (a "sniper" class seems strange in a space battle) but there are many effective ways to deal with them. The only thing that stinks is when you are in a tight dogfight and blam, nailed by a railgun because you're so distracted. That's the risk you take though being out in the open; I'm sure they hate it when they are scoped in on someone and I start ripping into them with blasters and missiles too. Depends. If I'm scoping someone else and you surprise me from the side or back, the game's afoot, escape is part of the game, it also depends on how far you can stay on me. If I can't get rid of you by any other way than to go to my spawn ship and you're using cluster missiles, yeah, it stops being fun and starts being annoying at that point (see Tier 2 scouts), I can avoid direct fire weapons, but avoiding cluster missiles takes cooldowns that I run out of eventually. But what I HATE, is when I'm scoped on a T2 scout at max range, charging a shot, and then they barrel roll directly at me and are within 5000m before my charge is finished, and because of their 71% evade chance during barrel roll, I miss my shot, and they're in my face. Really makes me wish dampening worked properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasondscott Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Well you have your cute little pink opinion ^.^ all to yourself. And I have my own. And I believe Gunships were added solely as a way for talentless "pilots" to get cheap kills and quick thrills, to help keep them playing and help keep their shallow sense of worth going. Since you know, they couldn't hack-it in a dogfight. Sounds like someone's a little butthurt and doesn't know how to deal with gunships. We really don't need another, "GUNSHIPS OP Z****ROFLCOPTR!!!!!111!" thread. Our posts obviously go mostly ignored. Quit whining and go smoke them yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philmors Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 I do think gunships do need to be balanced some more as they are a bit OP. I'm thinking more along the lines of nerfing the slug railgun to not be capable of oneshotting scouts and nearly oneshotting everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinseia Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Sounds like someone's a little butthurt and doesn't know how to deal with gunships. We really don't need another, "GUNSHIPS OP Z****ROFLCOPTR!!!!!111!" thread. Our posts obviously go mostly ignored. Quit whining and go smoke them yourself. Deal with them? Lol. Blow them up as they try to charge their little pansy gun up to take cheap shots on pilots actually trying to dogfight? Not a lot of strategy behind that. Keep enjoying your talentless "sniper class" ship, Chunk. Edited January 15, 2014 by Sinseia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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