Evasion shouldn't work if you aren't moving.

[DarkeyedSeer]

Is there a set of laws somewhere that divide games into categories and strictly forbid any game to use any mechanic from a category that is not it's own?

 

Such as, "This game is in the 'TWITCH' category and thus it absolutely must not have any RNG elements"?

 

I am not aware of any such laws. As far as i am concerned, every game stands on it's own. Yes, there are twitch games that do not have any RNG in them. So? Good for them. This game is different.

 

Arguing 'this game must not have RNG because it is a twitch game and this OTHER twitch game does not have RNG either!' is nonsense. IMHO, of course.

there not laws in the since of written rules but when you stop and look at why the game is it has unwritten rules. common ideas the bind the game to make it what it is . here is and example why your playing say ace combat your flying around and you see a enemy and you give chase and shoot them down because they lacked the skill to escape from you.

if you introduce RNG into this you can get a completely diffrent reaction now your shot can miss or they take less damage ect ect , allowing the other player to react in away that they normaly would need skill for. here is a easy question should you have roll for damage in games like ace combat and every 2d and 3d fighter ever made. MMO require RNG to allow players to not have to worry about things like blocking dodging.

 

this kind of system is needed in RPG but in twitch games this actions are decided by the player. does he dodge does he get hit does he counter its all up to the player to make the right call. if the computer is the one making the call what is the point to twitch. the skill of the player does not matter because the computer is doing all the work. i know my typing sucks but hell i really do suck at explaing myself basicly Twitch = player twitch skill and reaction time.

Edited January 12, 2014 by DarkeyedSeer

[Sharee]

if you introduce RNG into this you can get a completely diffrent reaction now your shot can miss or they take less damage ect ect , allowing the other player to react in away that they normaly would need skill for. here is a easy question should you have roll for damage in games like ace combat and every 2d and 3d fighter ever made.

 

Well thats kinda my point. You write 'normally' but you really mean 'in other games'. There is no 'normal' way to make a game. Every game is different. In one aiming dead-on always results in a hit, in other games it doesn't. You just have to adapt.

 

You say that implementing RNG results in a completely different reaction and you are right. All i am saying is that 'completely different' doesn't mean 'wrong'.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Sharee

[Armonddd]

Well thats kinda my point. You write 'normally' but you really mean 'in other games'. There is no 'normal' way to make a game. Every game is different. In one aiming dead-on always results in a hit, in other games it doesn't. You just have to adapt.

 

You say that implementing RNG results in a completely different reaction and you are right. All i am saying is that 'completely different' doesn't mean 'wrong'.

 

Randomness devalues skill.

[Sharee]

Randomness devalues skill.

 

As long as the result isn't completely random, skill is the most important factor.

 

Think poker.

 

In GSF, sure, the worse player might win an encounter just because he got lucky. But in the long run, good luck and bad luck affect everyone equally, so it cancels out. In the end, skill is the only factor that decides who's the better player.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Sharee

[Armonddd]

As long as the result isn't completely random, skill is the most important factor.

 

Think poker.

 

In GSF, sure, the worse player might win an encounter just because he got lucky. But in the long run, good luck and bad luck affect everyone equally, so it cancels out. In the end, skill is the only factor that decides who's the better player.

 

In every game ever, a string of good or bad luck influences the outcome. Luck rewards the lucky, not the skilled player. In fact, in a lot of cases, the skilled player is punished by luck - because there's absolutely nothing he can do but ride the roller coaster and try to compensate.

 

The fact that luck affects players equally in the long run does nothing for the fact that it devalues skill in the short run, because the skilled player doesn't need luck to get his victories.

[Sharee]

In fact, in a lot of cases, the skilled player is punished by luck - because there's absolutely nothing he can do but ride the roller coaster and try to compensate.

 

As you said, the skilled player will be able to compensate. The unskilled player will not. Skill matters, whether there are luck elements or not.

 

The fact that luck affects players equally in the long run does nothing for the fact that it devalues skill in the short run, because the skilled player doesn't need luck to get his victories.

 

Think of it as additional challenge

[NalRethak]

As you said, the skilled player will be able to compensate. The unskilled player will not. Skill matters, whether there are luck elements or not.

 

He said try, not be able. That's a huge difference.

 

Think of it as additional challenge

 

A challenge you'll always lose, b/c there's nothing you can do against that.

[Danylia]

I find the flashing node indicator to be a bit weird. I'm not sure when/why it flashes. It's not just when the node is being capped.

As far as I know, it (only) flashes when an enemy ship gets in the cap range. If there is a suicidal attacker going against three defenders, the node will still flash (for the second before the kamikadze gets obliterated). So when a node starts flashing, look at the minimap. If you see a decent amount of green points around the node (but remember they can be both your allies and turrets) you (probably) don't have to rush to it immediately.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Danylia

[DarkeyedSeer]

Well thats kinda my point. You write 'normally' but you really mean 'in other games'. There is no 'normal' way to make a game. Every game is different. In one aiming dead-on always results in a hit, in other games it doesn't. You just have to adapt.

 

You say that implementing RNG results in a completely different reaction and you are right. All i am saying is that 'completely different' doesn't mean 'wrong'.

no thats not what i am saying what i am saying in ever other twitch game every single one when you become good at it you understand exactly what you need to do to score a hit were you need to aim were you need to move. trying to bring in RNG it destroys that line of logic and its thats line of logic that makes a twitch game a twitch game. again should you have to roll for damage in fps should you have a chance to ignore damage in a figheter should you be able to sit still and take not damage because the computer rolled it so. i get you want to try something new but you can not mix certain elements when it comes to games, and RNG and Twitch is two of those things that just dont mix.

[Sharee]

no thats not what i am saying what i am saying in ever other twitch game every single one when you become good at it you understand exactly what you need to do to score a hit were you need to aim were you need to move. trying to bring in RNG it destroys that line of logic and its thats line of logic that makes a twitch game a twitch game.

 

Well if RNG does not belong in a pure twitch game, and GSF has RNG in it, then logically GSF is not a pure twitch game. The only problem i see is you trying to force the game into a category it does not fit in.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Sharee

[DEATHICIDE]

I JUST FIGURED IT OUT!!!!

 

WE CAN'T NERF THIS THING!!!!!

 

Because if we did, all the players who can't fly worth a damn can't rely on temporary OP cooldowns to snag kills, will realize they aren't any good without them, and then we will lose half the population!!!!!!

 

 

(Ok, I trolled, but I think this is at least 50% truth)

Edited January 12, 2014 by DEATHICIDE

[NalRethak]

Well if RNG does not belong in a pure twitch game, and GSF has RNG in it, then logically GSF is not a pure twitch game. The only problem i see is you trying to force the game into a category it does not fit in.

 

Yup, we're trying to make it fit into the "good game" category, while you're pleased with it being in the "crappy" one

[Sharee]

Yup, we're trying to make it fit into the "good game" category, while you're pleased with it being in the "crappy" one

 

Well that's a matter of opinion. I think the game is fine as it is, and a bit of unpredictability just makes it more interesting.

[Armonddd]

Well if RNG does not belong in a pure twitch game, and GSF has RNG in it, then logically GSF is not a pure twitch game. The only problem i see is you trying to force the game into a category it does not fit in.

 

Take your pick of propositional fallacies this falls under.

 

Well that's a matter of opinion. I think the game is fine as it is, and a bit of unpredictability just makes it more interesting.

 

Unpredictability makes PvE games more interesting. Interest comes from a combination of surprise and results; results are positive, negative, or (rarely) neutral. In a PvP game, a positive result for one player is a negative result for another player, and vice versa. Negative results are often worthy of discussion, but players don't like dealing with them on more than an occasional basis, especially if they feel they have no way to change the outcome.

 

In GSF and PvP in general, negative results often mean someone dies, which means they sit in the respawn cafe until the game lets them back in - they're essentially banned from the game for this time. No one plays a game to get banned from it; it's simply not fun. So, in an effort to maximize fun, randomness should be eliminated.

 

It's also not fun to miss. In other twitch games, you get rewarded for figuring out patterns in the enemy by shooting them when others would be unable to. In GSF, you get rewarded for figuring out these patterns... 41% less of the time.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Armonddd

[Sharee]

Take your pick of propositional fallacies this falls under.

 

Excuse me but any fool can link to a wikipedia article without actually understanding what it is about. Why don't *you* tell me what fallacy this falls under, assuming it does?

 

Because try as i might, i see no fallacy in the claim "If a twitch game must not contain RNG, and game X contains RNG, then game X is not a twitch game". Seems perfectly logical to me.

 

Unpredictability makes PvE games more interesting.

 

I'd say 'interesting' is a purely subjective term. For you, it makes PvE more interesting. Fine. For me, it makes PvP more interesting as well.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Sharee

[Armonddd]

Excuse me but any fool can link to a wikipedia article without actually understanding what it is about. Why don't *you* tell me what fallacy this falls under, assuming it does?

 

Because try as i might, i see no fallacy in the claim "If a twitch game must not contain RNG, and game X contains RNG, then game X is not a twitch game". Seems perfectly logical to me.

 

A or B; A; therefore not B.

 

If A, then B; not A, therefore not B.

 

I'd say 'interesting' is a purely subjective term. For you, it makes PvE more interesting. Fine. For me, it makes PvP more interesting as well.

 

Way to quote mine and/or not at all read what I wrote. Let me give you a hint: games need to be fun for everyone playing.

[Sharee]

A or B; A; therefore not B.

 

If A, then B; not A, therefore not B.

 

Ah. But my claim was

 

If A then B; Not B, therefore Not A. Which is different, and does not fit your fallacy example.

 

If A (game is twitch) then B(game doesn't contain RNG); not B(game does contain rng), therefore not A(game is not twitch)

 

 

Way to quote mine and/or not at all read what I wrote. Let me give you a hint: games need to be fun for everyone playing.

 

I sincerely doubt there even is such a thing as "fun for everyone"

Edited January 12, 2014 by Sharee

[Armonddd]

Ah. But my claim was

 

If A then B; Not B, therefore Not A. Which is different, and does not fit your fallacy example.

 

If A (game is twitch) then B(game doesn't contain RNG); not B(game does contain rng), therefore not A(game is not twitch)

 

That's still wrong, though. You didn't say if B, then A, so when not B shows up, therefore not A doesn't follow. The proper argument would be, if A, then B; not A; therefore not B.

 

In short, you're ignoring all the other elements that make GSF a twitch game and picking on one out of place element as a reason why the entire thing is not a twitch game.

 

I sincerely doubt there even is such a thing as "fun for everyone"

 

Talk to a psychology professor.

[Sharee]

That's still wrong, though. You didn't say if B, then A, so when not B shows up, therefore not A doesn't follow. The proper argument would be, if A, then B; not A; therefore not B.

 

Excuse me? Your 'proper argument' is one of the fallacies from your wikipedia page! Namely denying the antecedent! Check your logic mate. I said no such thing. My claim does not fit any of the fallacies you linked to, and therefore is valid.

 

In short, you're ignoring all the other elements that make GSF a twitch game and picking on one out of place element as a reason why the entire thing is not a twitch game.

 

Look. Either a twitch game CANNOT contain rng(in which case GSF isn't a twitch game) or it CAN contain rng(in which case the claim rng must be removed from GSF on the grounds that it is a twitch game is invalid). Take your pick. Either is fine with me.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Sharee

[Armonddd]

Excuse me? Your 'proper argument' is one of the fallacies from your wikipedia page! Namely denying the antecedent! Check your logic mate. I said no such thing. My claim does not fit any of the fallacies you linked to, and therefore is valid.

 

I missed a critical letter in my post; the claim is that iff A, then B (if and only if).

 

Look. Either a twitch game CANNOT contain rng(in which case GSF isn't a twitch game) or it CAN contain rng(in which case the claim rng must be removed from GSF on the grounds that it is a twitch game is invalid). Take your pick. Either is fine with me.

 

Do I have to draw a *********** venn diagram here? This is not a difficult concept.

 

There are games with stat-based elements that players progress as they play the game; we call those RPGs. There are games that rely on reflexes, accuracy, and manual dexterity; we call those twitch games. There are games that involve both of these elements; we call them twitch games that rely on luck as well as skill. They are not as good games as twitch-based games without RNG elements, for the reasons I have outlined above.

[DarkeyedSeer]

Well if RNG does not belong in a pure twitch game, and GSF has RNG in it, then logically GSF is not a pure twitch game. The only problem i see is you trying to force the game into a category it does not fit in.

but it does fit in to a being a twitch game. you fly around using your skill to out pilot other players=twitch game. the fact they are trying to introduce RNG into doesnt make it not a twitch game, it makes it a foolish idea that should be taken out because it does not help the game. i will give you yet another example.

 

Your playing halo 2 a fps twitch game. you pick up sniper rifle and spot and enemy player . you draw a bead on them and you put a bullet right though his eye.

Now if you introduce RNG into that after pulling the trigger the game can roll out that he took no damage thats what RNG does. Its randomly rolls a number that decides the outcome of every action your trying to do. Thats why it needs to be taken out . we are not trying to fit it into something its not . we are trying to cut out the tumor that is being put in it.

Edited January 13, 2014 by DarkeyedSeer

[Sharee]

but it does fit in to a being a twitch game. you fly around using your skill to out pilot other players=twitch game. the fact they are trying to introduce RNG into doesnt make it not a twitch game.

 

They aren't TRYING to introduce rng into it, the game HAS rng in it. And since you keep claiming a twitch game absolutely CANNOT have rng in it, then by your own definition, GSF is not a twitch game.

[Sharee]

There are games with stat-based elements that players progress as they play the game; we call those RPGs. There are games that rely on reflexes, accuracy, and manual dexterity; we call those twitch games. There are games that involve both of these elements; we call them twitch games that rely on luck as well as skill. They are not as good games as twitch-based games without RNG elements, for the reasons I have outlined above.

 

In other words, you chose option B: A twitch game CAN have a random element and still be a twitch game. Good. Now we can do away with the silly claim that RNG has no place in GSF just because it is a twitch game.

 

Note that it is absolutely within your right to consider twitch games with RNG not as good as twitch games without RNG - its all personal preference. I for one like it the way it is now.

 

(Just a side note: even without evasion, GSF would still have random elements in it. For instance, how many pilots attack the sat you're at is random, and this can cause you to die without having any chance, similar to being unlucky with evasion. If you want a PvP game with no randomness at all, you need to stick to Chess)

Edited January 13, 2014 by Sharee

[DroidDreamer]

Uh yeah. While you guys are arguing about arguing, I ran some more missions tonight and found three or four different guys using 'X' in lieu of dogfighting in the same encounter. Killing the throttle and turret fighting has become far too prevalent in GSF.

[Sharee]

Uh yeah. While you guys are arguing about arguing, I ran some more missions tonight and found three or four different guys using 'X' in lieu of dogfighting in the same encounter. Killing the throttle and turret fighting has become far too prevalent in GSF.

 

I like it when they do it. Shows an inexperienced pilot. He starts shooting. I start shooting. He pops distortion. I expect that, and immediately boost past him. I turn around. His distortion is expired by now, and he is still only halfway turned towards me(a stopped ship turns like a pregnant whale). I blast him out of the sky. Mission accomplished.