Barrel Rolling for travel -> any other engine component is gimp

[Nemarus]

Right now, every ship variant has access to Barrel Roll.

 

And right now, every ship variant should take Barrel Roll.

 

Barrel Roll propels you several thousand meters forward, much faster than afterburners, for much less engine cost. It's such a dramatically faster and more efficient way to travel across the map that taking any other engine component puts you at a severe mobility disadvantage.

 

Sure, some hold-outs might argue that Retro Thrusters offers a greater tactical advantage in dogfighters, or that Engine-to-Shield Converter on the Pike/Quell lets you stay alive longer--both of those claims are true, and for a time I still used them on a few of my ships. But eventually, in my experience, I determined that neither is anywhere nearly as valuable as being able to get from respawn to a node, or from A to C, without slowing down. And don't even mention the turns or power dive, which are wholly useless.

 

If the devs really want engine component choice to be interesting for all ships, then they need to dramatically reduce the forward-speed-boost Barrel Roll provides. Or, failing that, they should limit Barrel Roll to Scouts, who are supposed to specialize in extreme maneuverability and speed. But even then, that would leave almost all Scouts taking Barrel Roll, which doesn't solve the whole problem.

[Altheran]

I completely disagree.

 

Barrel Roll maneuver is so huge that chances that you hit something and crash are high. In addition, if someone is firing and locking you from behind, you'd be sure he'll be back in few seconds.

In other hand Koigroan Turn allows you force him to turn back, he'll lose sight, and in rare case, allows you to joust back.

 

Priorities. If your priority is running through the battlefield at the speed of light, you may be interrested by using Barrel Roll in this twisted way. But if your priority is dogfighting for exemple, you may be interrested by something else.

You find more interresting travelling, some people don't.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Altheran

[mr_sim]

Right now, every ship variant has access to Barrel Roll.

 

And right now, every ship variant should take Barrel Roll.

 

Barrel Roll propels you several thousand meters forward, much faster than afterburners, for much less engine cost. It's such a dramatically faster and more efficient way to travel across the map that taking any other engine component puts you at a severe mobility disadvantage.

 

Sure, some hold-outs might argue that Retro Thrusters offers a greater tactical advantage in dogfighters, or that Engine-to-Shield Converter on the Pike/Quell lets you stay alive longer--both of those claims are true, and for a time I still used them on a few of my ships. But eventually, in my experience, I determined that neither is anywhere nearly as valuable as being able to get from respawn to a node, or from A to C, without slowing down. And don't even mention the turns or power dive, which are wholly useless.

 

If the devs really want engine component choice to be interesting for all ships, then they need to dramatically reduce the forward-speed-boost Barrel Roll provides. Or, failing that, they should limit Barrel Roll to Scouts, who are supposed to specialize in extreme maneuverability and speed. But even then, that would leave almost all Scouts taking Barrel Roll, which doesn't solve the whole problem.

 

disagree, Retro thrusters FTW for me.

 

Barrel roll does best missile evasion true,

 

However it doesn't not solve the inherent issue that it doesn't change your direction and therefore your foe remains on your tail.

[Kain_Turinbar]

In tight spaces barrel roll is dangerous. Thinking C in the asteroid field and B in the other map.

[ptwonline]

I agree with the OP. While other abilities are better in certain situations, tactically-speaking Barrel Roll is superior because it allows you to travel across the map much faster to either intercept, capture, or flee.

[Brewski]

I disagree with this being a one-size-fits-all-everyone-must-have component. Although Barrel Roll does give significant movement advantages, and may need some adjustments to bring it back to it's original purpose, using it also takes away alternate advantages which may be preferable to some players/roles. Also, although it does provide superior speed overall, it also has inherent limitations. For example, it is unsafe to use in restrictive environments such as near a satellite or asteroid. In those situations Barrel Roll is useless as a movement skill.

 

I mostly fly a scout, and never run out of boost power. Retros give me much greater utility than the little more speed I get when flying BR. Retros give me the ability to prolong an assault on a stationary target, easily reposition for a second run on a satellite, or quickly turn an "Oh crap he's on my tail" moment into an "I have you now" moment instead.

 

Do I occasionally get frustrated by a Barrel Rolling gunship escaping my grasp? Sure. However, if he's moving that quick away from me he rapidly becomes a non-issue in terms of the game, and I can focus on my next target instead.

 

I could make a similar argument for Koiorgon Turn, which I use on my strike fighter.

 

I agree that Barrel Roll needs a bit of tweaking, but overstating the effect just lessens the impact of the argument and makes it easier to dismiss.

[Warhelm]

Barrel Roll is Easy-mode. The other engine options require changes in tactics/play-style to be used well. And they can be used well enough to be preferred by some pilots. Full disclosure: I only use Barrel Roll. I fly all the ships and can't be bothered to remember different engine tactics.

[Armonddd]

A thread espousing the single advantage a component has over others without mentioning its disadvantages, calling it flat-out better than all the competition, despite specifically mentioning the advantages other components bring to the table? Must be Nemarus. Edited January 7, 2014 by Armonddd

[Itkovian]

One thing is certain: it would be a lot harder to hunt down or survive gunships and their attacks as a strike if barrel roll were gimped. Indeed right now it's about the only way to survive the Ion Railgun in a strike, as they simply cannot boost long enough to get anywhere after an ion hit.

 

Given this, a nerf to Barrel Roll would definitely have significant impacts on game balance, and those should be accounted for before such a nerf could be implemented.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Itkovian

[Ramalina]

Perhaps you should consider learning how to use other engine components effectively.

 

Retro thrusters and koigran turn are both excellent abilities once you've mastered their use. Retro thrusters are fantastic in dogfights, and koigran turn is probably the best possible choice when fighting around lots of obstacles. I haven't investigated the others closely yet, but as I get closer to mastering my ships I'm seeing that GS balance seems to be organized on the assumption that everyone is flying fully mastered ships. Balance while leveling is really screwed up, which isn't good for retention of players trying GS for the first time, but that's sort of a different issue.

 

Barrel rolling is the best engine component for long distance travel, yes. However, depending on your role, ship build and playstyle enhanced long distance travel may not be the most valuable ability available through the engine component slot.

 

If anything I'm seeing fewer people, especially the better pilots, flying with barrel roll on my server. If you get good at energy management, manage your position thoughtfully, and don't get killed a lot there's much less need to zoom all the way across the map without stopping.

 

Think of it like soccer. If you're a beginner playing other beginners being able to run fast and chase the ball for 90 minutes is a great thing. If you're playing people who know what they're doing though, they'll be thinking ahead and can get into position in no hurry. If you want to chase the ball that's fine because they'll let you run yourself to exhaustion without ever letting you near the ball.

 

Barrel roll is great in specific ships in specific situations, but if you think it's always the best choice you're likely to be torn to pieces if you happen to fly against someone who knows better.

 

That said, using barrel roll to run is a lot easier than learning to land proton torpedo shots from 1-2 km by using retro thrusters. (I am jealous of the pilots who have mastered this skill ).

 

What it really takes to make engine components perform well is:

A ship build where all of your upgrades work well with each other AND with your flying style,

Fully mastered components in the build you're using

Crew abilities that reinforce your ship build

Lots of practice flying that build.

 

Barrel roll is just the component that suffers the least if you're not doing any of those things. So it's not so much a case of being the best component as it is of being the easiest to use for unskilled pilots.

[Icebergy]

I run Barrel Roll on all my ships as well. Personally I think it is the most useful by far.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

I could see Barrel Roll needing to be tweaked since, to my knowledge, gunships seem to prefer it to Interdiction Drive. Whether Interdiction is too weak or Barrel Roll is too good I'm not sure but it would appear that some balancing is required.

[Kuciwalker]

Barrel Roll maneuver is so huge that chances that you hit something and crash are high.

 

Not if you are a good pilot.

 

In addition, if someone is firing and locking you from behind, you'd be sure he'll be back in few seconds.

 

Not if you are a good pilot. Barrel roll opens up a huge amount of space, space equals time, time lets you get cover or turn around.

 

Alternately, if you barrel roll past someone (to escape a disadvantageous head-to-head), the other person also has to turn around, given you even more time.

[Altheran]

Not if you are a good pilot.

 

Good piloting has nothing to do, just environment knowledge. The only thing you can do is guess that your roll will not hit the obstacles and hope you were right, because once activated, you don't have any control over the roll.

[Itkovian]

Good piloting has nothing to do, just environment knowledge. The only thing you can do is guess that your roll will not hit the obstacles and hope you were right, because once activated, you don't have any control over the roll.

 

It's also fun! Yippeeeeeee-BANG!.

 

Oops.

[Nemarus]

Good piloting has nothing to do, just environment knowledge. The only thing you can do is guess that your roll will not hit the obstacles and hope you were right, because once activated, you don't have any control over the roll.

 

Which makes Barrel Roll sometimes the least dangerous in close spaces, because you can see precisely where it will put you--whereas with Retro Thrusters, Power Dive, or the turns, any small failing of peripheral spatial awareness could mean your death.

[Kuciwalker]

Good piloting has nothing to do, just environment knowledge. The only thing you can do is guess that your roll will not hit the obstacles and hope you were right, because once activated, you don't have any control over the roll.

 

Being able to extrapolate a linear trajectory is a pretty basic part of being a good pilot.

[ptwonline]

I could see Barrel Roll needing to be tweaked since, to my knowledge, gunships seem to prefer it to Interdiction Drive. Whether Interdiction is too weak or Barrel Roll is too good I'm not sure but it would appear that some balancing is required.

 

Gunships use it for opening up distance quickly, and unlike Interdiction they don't have to wait until their opponent is up close. They use it to draw enemies to the cap ship where the enemies are blown up by the turrets, or else the enemy turns before they reach the cap ship, then the gunship turns around and nails them from range since the pursuer may now be low on engine power to escape themselves. A gunship played this way can be almost impossible to kill.

 

It can also allow the gunship to pull a defender far away from a sat, making capture by a teammate much easier.

[Altheran]

Being able to extrapolate a linear trajectory is a pretty basic part of being a good pilot.

 

But yet you're not piloting it. (I know I'm playing on words)

It's as you say, only a "part" of piloting. One can have that part, but be bad at handeling, making him a bad pilot.

[jankiel]

I like retro thrusters more. Much more offensive usefull I think.

[reclipsed]

Good piloting has nothing to do, just environment knowledge. The only thing you can do is guess that your roll will not hit the obstacles and hope you were right, because once activated, you don't have any control over the roll.

 

wouldn't having enviro knowledge be "good piloting''?

 

I use B roll on my Gunship. The only drawback is missing it on my other ships at the start of a match to get a head start .

 

I love K turn on my Strike Fighter. I'm still trying to decide what I like best with my Scout. I like Retro for close combat burst against pilots on my 6, but the Nose dive one is pretty fun out of tight spaces

 

IMO, sticking to a few options and not using all of them gives you a handicap

[Kain_Turinbar]

Gunships use it for opening up distance quickly, and unlike Interdiction they don't have to wait until their opponent is up close. They use it to draw enemies to the cap ship where the enemies are blown up by the turrets, or else the enemy turns before they reach the cap ship, then the gunship turns around and nails them from range since the pursuer may now be low on engine power to escape themselves. A gunship played this way can be almost impossible to kill.

 

It can also allow the gunship to pull a defender far away from a sat, making capture by a teammate much easier.

 

Yes, at times I can see just not wanting to let them go and stubbornly chase them anyway. Over time though if you're on "gunship denial" duty you learn to let them run away (this still takes them out of the fight and contributes to capturing the sat) and not pursue them in a suicide fashion. I like to finish them off (who doesn't) but if you spend the whole match chasing them away it contributes as well.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

Gunships use it for opening up distance quickly, and unlike Interdiction they don't have to wait until their opponent is up close. They use it to draw enemies to the cap ship where the enemies are blown up by the turrets, or else the enemy turns before they reach the cap ship, then the gunship turns around and nails them from range since the pursuer may now be low on engine power to escape themselves. A gunship played this way can be almost impossible to kill.

 

It can also allow the gunship to pull a defender far away from a sat, making capture by a teammate much easier.

 

I fully understand it's uses. I'm just observing that, based on what I've read on the forums, Barrel Roll sounds like it is more versatile than Interdiction. Which sounds like Barrel Roll is too good and in need of a nerf if it can be used for the same escape function as Interdiction while also being usable for many more things.

[DEATHICIDE]

I did not like barrel roll.

It's very easy for other players to pin point where you are going to end up because straight lines + human brain = natural comfort when it comes to predetermination.

 

Also, unless you are a scout vs a non scout, you are not at an advantage by creating a gap then turning around (with the slight possible exception of popping those OP flashfire cool-downs *dodges rocks from angry FF pilots on forum*) the only thing that does, is give the pursuer the upper hand, as they can more effectively set themselves up for a missile lock, and align their blaster trajectory, than a ship who has to come out of a boost and must turn around again.

The disadvantage this puts you in VS a gunship pilot with deadly aim is obvious.

 

The other maneuvers however, are not as predictable, and lead to scenarios which differ from those of the expected barrel roll.

 

If you like to be the first on the scene, barrel roll is the way to go, otherwise, it leaves you more susceptible to attack when in the sights of other ships, with retro thrusters coming in at second place, as, once you activate those things, I can almost always predict just where you will zip back forwards to, and make sure I have a nice volley ready for you right when you do.

 

For these reasons, I would argue against the must have factor for barrel roll or retro thrusters, as the former simply lets you travel faster, and the latter is only useful in close space dogfights/stationary targets.

 

Zoom out, and both fall to the bottom of the list when it comes to messing with the human mind that is trying to decide how they are about to come in at you.

 

IMO, of course.

[ptwonline]

I did not like barrel roll.

It's very easy for other players to pin point where you are going to end up because straight lines + human brain = natural comfort when it comes to predetermination.

 

Also, unless you are a scout vs a non scout, you are not at an advantage by creating a gap then turning around (with the slight possible exception of popping those OP flashfire cool-downs *dodges rocks from angry FF pilots on forum*) the only thing that does, is give the pursuer the upper hand, as they can more effectively set themselves up for a missile lock, and align their blaster trajectory, than a ship who has to come out of a boost and must turn around again.

The disadvantage this puts you in VS a gunship pilot with deadly aim is obvious.

 

The other maneuvers however, are not as predictable, and lead to scenarios which differ from those of the expected barrel roll.

 

If you like to be the first on the scene, barrel roll is the way to go, otherwise, it leaves you more susceptible to attack when in the sights of other ships, with retro thrusters coming in at second place, as, once you activate those things, I can almost always predict just where you will zip back forwards to, and make sure I have a nice volley ready for you right when you do.

 

For these reasons, I would argue against the must have factor for barrel roll or retro thrusters, as the former simply lets you travel faster, and the latter is only useful in close space dogfights/stationary targets.

 

Zoom out, and both fall to the bottom of the list when it comes to messing with the human mind that is trying to decide how they are about to come in at you.

 

IMO, of course.

 

You're focusing on the direct combat aspects of Barrel Roll vs the others. That is not so much where the advantage is. Barrel Roll is mediocre at best in a dogfight.

 

The advantage of Barrel Roll is being able to cover ground quickly and gain tactical advantage. This can allow a group of organized pilots (or even just an alert, single pilot) who are dominating one satellite to quickly deny the capture of the adjacent satellite. You literally do not have enough time between the first turret blowup and sitting there to cap it before they can reach you and prevent the cap because Barrel Roll can get them there so fast. And not just the Scouts, but the Strikes and Gunships as well.