The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 1: Asajj Ventress vs. Shaak Ti

[Aurbere]

There.

 

To add to your quote:

 

He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her. He had raised his lightsaber by reflex. She had, in the desperation of her final assault, practically thrown herself on the blade. Perhaps she had meant for the two of them to defeat each other at the same time.

[Selenial]

You don't seem to get her logic, if she killed the assassin and her presence in the Force remained then she knew Vader himself would come and she didn't believe she had a chance at defeating him without adequate advantages, most of which she didn't have.

 

Hence getting herself killed so that Vader would believe she is dead to.

 

So in the time she had she tried her best to take Maris Brood off the path of the Dark Side and once her time had come she was going to die in the name of the Jedi Order and in the protection of Brood.

 

Her hope was that she would finally train a student in the light and convince her to abandon her thirst for vengeance in time before she died.

 

And this still makes no sense to me.

 

She believed herself to be the last Jedi capable of taking down Vader, had she fought him in the Abyss with Brood, she could have stood a chance. With the light side of that place.

 

Whereas if she left Brood when she did, Brood would walk further down the Dark Path. Paranoia would set in. She sent Brood away specifically because Brood was still tainted by the Dark Side, I can imagine her dying happily knowing that Brood is light, but not then.

 

Also, she considered Vader a coward for sending Starkiller, I think she believed she stood a chance against him.

[Aurbere]

Key word = Desperation.

 

Something Marek also felt, in addition to barely being able to defend himself against her attacks.

[Selenial]

To add to your quote:

 

Yeh, I posted that in response to you, made more sense pointing out the fact it says "Desperation of her Final assault"

[Aurbere]

Yeh, I posted that in response to you, made more sense pointing out the fact it says "Desperation of her Final assault"

 

Yeah, I missed that while I was writing. Still, it was mostly in reply to the intended suicide thing.

[Selenial]

So, she made a miscalculation and was killed.

 

Doesn't look like suicide to me, not even close.

 

Not sure which side of the argument you're backing here.

 

It doesn't look like Suicide, no, so she made a drastic miscalculation that ended in her death, and the way she did it makes it seem as though she was unbalanced. Dying halfway through trying to make a retort to a taunt. Hmm, seems unbalanced to me

[Aurbere]

Fisto trained Jedi, he knew how to wield 2 sabers enough to take Grevious out with them, and yet he was completely caught off balance by Ventress' use of hers, so much so that he would have died had he not rolled into a river.

 

This, I feel, is a very good point for Ventress. Specifically her ability to recognize the weaknesses an opponent possesses.

[Selenial]

I'm getting bored of re-reading TFU novel, but can anyone point me to any lines where Marek launches Force attacks at her? He lifted teeth at her, and repulsed tentacles, but I missed any indication of him trying to launch a force assault on her specifically.

[Aurbere]

I'm getting bored of re-reading TFU novel, but can anyone point me to any lines where Marek launches Force attacks at her? He lifted teeth at her, and repulsed tentacles, but I missed any indication of him trying to launch a force assault on her specifically.

 

I didn't see anything.

[Beniboybling]

I'm getting bored of re-reading TFU novel, but can anyone point me to any lines where Marek launches Force attacks at her? He lifted teeth at her, and repulsed tentacles, but I missed any indication of him trying to launch a force assault on her specifically.

If your bored, feel free to stimulate those brain muscles by typing up the section for me.

[Selenial]

If your bored, feel free to stimulate those brain muscles by typing up the section for me.

 

Maybe when I get back, popping out for about 10 minutes.

 

But my fingers still hurt from last time, when you made me type out the entire passage regarding Starkiller bringing the Star Destroyer down.

 

Speaking of which, why did you need that?

[Selenial]

I didn't see anything.

 

Precisely, I'm finding it hard to see many examples of Ti weathering force blasts.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Maybe when I get back, popping out for about 10 minutes.

 

But my fingers still hurt from last time, when you made me type out the entire passage regarding Starkiller bringing the Star Destroyer down.

 

Speaking of which, why did you need that?

 

Psst, he didn't bring down the Star Destroyer! He slowed down its descent!

Edited January 21, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Not sure which side of the argument you're backing here.

 

It doesn't look like Suicide, no, so she made a drastic miscalculation that ended in her death, and the way she did it makes it seem as though she was unbalanced. Dying halfway through trying to make a retort to a taunt. Hmm, seems unbalanced to me

I'm backing the side that wins, as always. apart from when Aurbere's mumbo jumbo verdicts get in the way *grumble grumble*

[Aurbere]

I'm backing the side that wins, as always. apart from when Aurbere's mumbo jumbo verdicts get in the way *grumble grumble*

 

I guess you shouldn't be surprised at this match's verdict then.

[Beniboybling]

But my fingers still hurt from last time, when you made me type out the entire passage regarding Starkiller bringing the Star Destroyer down.

 

Speaking of which, why did you need that?

For a polemic assault on S_W_Legend of course, time well spent don't you think.

[Beniboybling]

I guess you shouldn't be surprised at this match's verdict then.

No, I don't suppose I won't. But I might surprise myself before that verdict is made...

[Beniboybling]

To add to your quote:

Interesting, most interesting.

[LadyKulvax]

I won't go into the specifics of any debate here, I will simply repeat my beliefs here, i really don't have that much time but here goes:

 

Whilst Asajj ventress was a highly skilled and adaptable Jar'Kai/Makashi specialist, she has been utterly creamed by Count Dooku, himself a master of the Makashi art.

 

Not only has she had serious advantages on two occasions against him but she has been unable to finish him whilst he didn't even have a lightsaber.

 

Against a master of not only Makashi but Ataru as well, this would prove absolutely fatal.

 

Whilst yes I believe Dooku is likely Ti's superior, I am not sure it's by a significant margin.

 

I believe Ti is simply a superior lightsaber master.

 

As far as prowess in the Force goes, I believe Ti also maintains the advantage here, she has shown to have significant Force barrier defences against all manner of opponents.

 

She has an ability to Force Heal that is either instantaneous or close to it in relative terms, surviving many normally fatal injuries.

 

She has shown an ability in Alter Environment to do just that, enhanced by her innate abilities as a Togruta, this means she could possibly use the desert wasteland to her advantage.

 

She has a serous affinity with bolstering her own speed and stamina with the Force, which was enhanced by her ability to regulate her own body in different ways, making her a better survivor, able to fight for extreme amounts of time and still be near peak health.

 

Shaak Ti is also a cunning combatant, able to read her environment and her enemies and manipulate their weaknesses, something she became famous for in the Order.

 

Shaak Ti was also one of the most calm, collected and wise Jedi Masters in the Order, allowing her to maintain a mental posture that would better help her channel the Light Side of the Force which was enforced by her naturally gifted connection to life energy as a Togruta.

 

I simply believe that Master Ti is too much of a seasoned combatant and a veteran fighter, her very deep connection to the Light aids her very well, not only mentally but physically.

 

In my opinion Ventress has met her match in Master Shaak Ti.

Edited January 22, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[Selenial]

Not going to come back to most of those arguments, as I agree with some of them, however I believe using Dooku as an example is very unfair.

 

Dooku trained her.

 

That's what separates him and Ti by a significant margin, he knows everything she'll do and when, because he taught her how to do it. Her advantage when it comes to Jedi is that she has a very Radical and unpredictable stance and style, even if Ti was Dooku's Superior/Equal, it would be safe to say Dooku would win where she would not.

[Beniboybling]

I think I'd conclude that the reason for Shaak Ti's desperation was exhaustion. I'd presume that against Galen Marek, an incredibly powerful and aggressive duelist, she felt the need to keep him on the defensive - Juyo being a form lacking in defensive capabilities - via Ataru, and in such a way she would have rapidly depleted her energy reserves and Marek continually weathered each and every attack. And eventually she would have had no reserves left.

 

So the final resolution would be to use the last of her power to unleash a most rapid and aggressive assault, at the cost of her own safety, in an ultimately futile attempt to kill Marek - but that too ultimately failed.

 

Against Ventress however, this simply won't be necessary. Ventress doesn't have the ability to weather so many of Shaak Ti's onslaughts, nor does she have the ferocity to force Shaak Ti to force her on the defense.

 

I've thought the issue through long and hard, but I still don't feel its possible for Ventress to win.

[Selenial]

I think I'd conclude that the reason for Shaak Ti's desperation was exhaustion. I'd presume that against Galen Marek, an incredibly powerful and aggressive duelist, she felt the need to keep him on the defensive - Juyo being a form lacking in defensive capabilities - via Ataru, and in such a way she would have rapidly depleted her energy reserves and Marek continually weathered each and every attack. And eventually she would have had no reserves left.

 

So the final resolution would be to use the last of her power to unleash a most rapid and aggressive assault, at the cost of her own safety, in an ultimately futile attempt to kill Marek - but that too ultimately failed.

 

Against Ventress however, this simply won't be necessary. Ventress doesn't have the ability to weather so many of Shaak Ti's onslaughts, nor does she have the ferocity to force Shaak Ti to force her on the defense.

 

I've thought the issue through long and hard, but I still don't feel its possible for Ventress to win.

 

I see the Duel similarly to you, as in the Ti vs Marek duel.

 

As for how it would apply to Ventress, I believe that there you're wrong.

 

The fact remains that the first time any Jedi face Ventress, they're overwhelmed by her unique style, her ability to throw in counters that most Jedi haven't seen before, and wouldn't expect, could mean that Ti's vicious style could very well be the end of her.

 

I've seen Ventress overwhelmed before, as we all have, by Power strikes by Anakin Skywalker, because she lacked the strength to parry and deflect them. However in later life, she eradicated this weakness, and Anakin Skywalker, the only Jedi to duel her who could Corner/Defeat her... Couldn't.

 

I doubt Ti's rapid frenzies would be any different. I believe it would wear Ti out, so when Ventress returned fire, (and my god can she return fire,) Ti would be toast.

[Beniboybling]

I see the Duel similarly to you, as in the Ti vs Marek duel.

 

As for how it would apply to Ventress, I believe that there you're wrong.

 

The fact remains that the first time any Jedi face Ventress, they're overwhelmed by her unique style, her ability to throw in counters that most Jedi haven't seen before, and wouldn't expect, could mean that Ti's vicious style could very well be the end of her.

 

I've seen Ventress overwhelmed before, as we all have, by Power strikes by Anakin Skywalker, because she lacked the strength to parry and deflect them. However in later life, she eradicated this weakness, and Anakin Skywalker, the only Jedi to duel her who could Corner/Defeat her... Couldn't.

 

I doubt Ti's rapid frenzies would be any different. I believe it would wear Ti out, so when Ventress returned fire, (and my god can she return fire,) Ti would be toast.

She compensated for her weakness, she did not eradicate. For example here, Ventress is pushed back on the defensive and caught in a blade lock before being forced to retreat. And if you watch the clip in its entirety, you'll witness Anakin once again push Ventress on the defensive before knocking her to the ground.

 

No, Ti does not possess the same amount of strength as Anakin. But Ataru has its own kind of ferocity backed up by speed and unpredictability, as if Marek struggled to withstand such an assualt, I doubt Ventress could. Now yes we can point to the fact that Ti was empowered by the nexus on Felucia, however I the fact that Marek is a grossly superior Force User to Ventress compensates for that, as well as compensating for Ti's eventual defeat.

 

In addition, I don't feel Ventress possesses the ferocity that Marek does, even when down scaled. Marek wielded the Juyo form, a highly aggressive and purely offensive form that Marek instilled with his own Force-based frenzy. So for that reason I feel Ti could resort to the more conservative Makashi, yes, Makashi - Ti was a master of the form that Ventress was merely a student, she will find no surprises there I can assure you.

[Selenial]

She compensated for her weakness, she did not eradicate. For example here, Ventress is pushed back on the defensive and caught in a blade lock before being forced to retreat. And if you watch the clip in its entirety, you'll witness Anakin once again push Ventress on the defensive before knocking her to the ground.

 

No, Ti does not possess the same amount of strength as Anakin. But Ataru has its own kind of ferocity backed up by speed and unpredictability, as if Marek struggled to withstand such an assualt, I doubt Ventress could. Now yes we can point to the fact that Ti was empowered by the nexus on Felucia, however I the fact that Marek is a grossly superior Force User to Ventress compensates for that, as well as compensating for Ti's eventual defeat.

 

In addition, I don't feel Ventress possesses the ferocity that Marek does, even when down scaled. Marek wielded the Juyo form, a highly aggressive and purely offensive form that Marek instilled with his own Force-based frenzy. So for that reason I feel Ti could resort to the more conservative Makashi, yes, Makashi - Ti was a master of the form that Ventress was merely a student, she will find no surprises there I can assure you.

 

The duel between Ventress and Anakin on Kamino is exactly what I was reffering to. That was before she trained to counteract that, that exact move, overpowering through Saber Lock, is the only way she's been defeated by Jedi that I can recall. And towards the end of her fighting career she grew in strenght Physically, and got rid of that. Basically, what happened to her in that duel doesn't happen any more.

 

Marek was not in his prime during that duel, I'd say Marek then, was about the same Power as Ventress. I say this because Marek grew with power with each mission, all the way to the death star, and even if he only went up in power 5%, that's still a massive difference in Force Energy. I know it's hard to understand what I'm trying to say here, but summed up it's basically that if Marek truly got more powerful as he said with each mission, He can't have been far off ventress near the start of his career.

 

Also, I highly doubt Marek used Juyo during that duel. Unfortunately, you havn't read the passage, but he was on the backfoot the entire time, He was obviously using Soresu. He used Soresu to hold off Rahm Kota's attacks long enough to tire him out, that's probably what he did to Ti as well.

 

And Ventress' Makashi wasn't Orthodox in the slightest, other wise the Jedi like Unduli wouldn't have had such trouble with her.

 

[Aurbere]

Selenial is correct that Marek was on the back foot for most of the fight, and his only offensive attacks were mainly force-based and focused on the Sarlaac in a desperate attempt to off balance her.