Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) I highly doubt Shaak Ti will be at all affected by Dun Moch, she was confronted by the individual who killed her Padawan and yet showed no anger whatsoever or any desire to can revenge. She came to terms with their death. Nor do I feel it likely that Ventress can choke Shaak Ti into submission. The only occasion in which she's been able to do this against high profile adversaries is immediately after her betrayal at the hands of Count Dooku and on top of that Ventress had been defeated and faced imprisonment. I'm not confident she experience similar emotions here. And without a sufficient arena to exploit, Ventress just can't win in this situation. P.S. Felucia is something of a Force nexus, but it was Shaak Ti's inherent Togrutan ability attune herself with natural surroundings that allowed her to capitalized on this energy and use it to bolster her power. Edited January 21, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I highly doubt Shaak Ti will be at all affected by Dun Moch, she was confronted by the individual who killed her Padawan and yet showed no anger whatsoever or any desire to can revenge. She came to terms with their death. Nor do I feel it likely that Ventress can choke Shaak Ti into submission. The only occasion in which she's been able to do this against high profile adversaries is immediately after her betrayal at the hands of Count Dooku and on top of that Ventress had been defeated and faced imprisonment. I'm not confident she experience similar emotions here. And without a sufficient arena to exploit, Ventress just can't win in this situation. P.S. Felucia is something of a Force nexus, but it was Shaak Ti's inherent Togrutan ability attune herself with natural surroundings that allowed her to capitalized on this energy and use it to bolster her power. And yet, she was pretty unbalanced by Starkiller. And it wasn't her padawans death that is the taunt, it's her failure as a teacher. Coming to terms with death is one thing, trying to accept that their death was your fault is another. Ventress has given into her rage before, multiple times, she doesn't need that kind of energy to choke Ti, I'd say Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi are far harder barriers to break through (Put together) than Ti is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 And yet, she was pretty unbalanced by Starkiller. And it wasn't her padawans death that is the taunt, it's her failure as a teacher. Coming to terms with death is one thing, trying to accept that their death was your fault is another. Ventress has given into her rage before, multiple times, she doesn't need that kind of energy to choke Ti, I'd say Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi are far harder barriers to break through (Put together) than Ti is. She was? I think you'll have to provide some specific examples. Which would cause grief, and grief leads to anger and a desire for revenge. Using Anakin's reaction to the death of his mother - which he perceived as his fault - as an example. Shaak Ti's lack of desire for revenge seems to imply she had come to terms with the deaths of her Padawans. It certainly wouldn't be enough to unbalance her in a duel. Yet only once has she used said rage to Force choke high profile adversaries of Shaak Ti's caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 You aren't getting my point however, you claim that her being able to put Starkiller down and out not just once or twice, but three separate times, is not impressive, yet it definitely is, he was still extremely powerful and Sidious' own thoughts on him the first time he meets him are: Yeh I don't know about you but Sidious' opinion makes it blatantly clear that Starkiller is already nearly as powerful as Vader was and that's all the evidence I need. That quote looks like Sidious is Referring to the confrontation on the Death Star, which explains the eclipsing Vader. A living planet strong with the Force =/= Force Nexus, Felucia has never been stated to be a Force Nexus, more like a living organism with a symbiotic relationship, it is also never stated that Shaak Ti draws power from the planet, in-fact almost the opposite happens, she has to use her own power to stop it from becoming tainted with Dark Side corruption, something that is stated quite clearly in three separate sources. Any planet strong with the Force can be drawn upon, we've heard this quite often. But if you have anything that does seperate something Strong with the Force, and a Nexus, then go for it. Malachor is stated to be "Strong in the Dark Side of the Force" as is Dromund Kaas, and Korriban, and it allows people to draw on their power. Actually she doesn't leave herself open at all, she tries to take them both out, not because she is suicidal, you seem to have missed the point of what she was doing and why she was doing it, she wanted Vader to believe that they had both died and she didn't want Maris Brood's existence to be noticed by the Sith, she wants to take out Vader's 'disciple' so he can't find Brood either and wants to kill herself so she causes a disturbance in the Force and let's Vader know she's dead. Point taken, but she still left herself open. Weather on purpose or not, she did it. She couldn't have taken him out if she hadn't, at least not that quickly. There are also direct statements that before Ti and Brood arrived the Felucian tribes and the planet itself was already being corrupted by the Dark Side and Ti did her best to reverse the process, she was the only thing standing in the way of the entire planet going Dark Side. And the way she reversed this? Bringing the Felucians back to the light. Edit: Nifty little quote She had taken a world enjoying the normal flows between the light and the dark sides of the Force and twisted it out of balance. There was still darkness on Felucia, but it was stifled, frustrated, weakened. He strained to awaken it, to remind it of its proper place in the universe. The light side had held sway for far too long. The point isn't the precise style Ventress uses but the fact she has not only witnessed dual-wielding but trained Maris Brood in it, oh and there were actually quite a few Jedi that used dual blades in the Order, anywhere near as much as traditional single blades? no, but that can be said of every era in Star Wars. There is quite a Dramatic Difference between Broods and Ventress' styles, and exactly, dual blades were rare. A desert wasteland battle ground littered with the corpses and skeletons of giant beasties? sounds like a perfect environment for not only a masterful Ataru wielder but also perfect for someone that uses not only Telekinesis but Alter Environment as well. Well then, how lucky Ventress is to have shown incredible skills in exploiting the battlefield. Prime example being when she took down a Soresu wielding Jedi Master (Unduli) with absolute ease. Something she has no qualms about, oh and she did not hate the Sith not at all, I have no idea where you're getting that from, not only does she only consider the survival of the Jedi and their traditions but she tries to repeatedly teach Maris Brood to abandon her anger and hatred for the Sith, the Empire and their persecution of the Jedi, something she wouldn't bother to do if she truly hated the Sith as you suggest. Oh and she had seen Marek's arrival coming for some time, it was not a shock to her at all, in-fact she guides him to her ambush in the first place. "You Reek of that Coward Vader" Her first line. She didn't want to try spare him, try convince him to stop this, she didn't even try like Most Jedi would. She quite literally just leaped at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 And yet, she was pretty unbalanced by Starkiller. I just read through the duel and found no evidence of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Which would cause grief, and grief leads to anger and a desire for revenge. Using Anakin's reaction to the death of his mother - which he perceived as his fault - as an example. Shaak Ti's lack of desire for revenge seems to imply she had come to terms with the deaths of her Padawans. It certainly wouldn't be enough to unbalance her in a duel. Indeed she did. "You never understood, Lyshaa. I never sought revenge--I am a Jedi." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 She was? I think you'll have to provide some specific examples. Which would cause grief, and grief leads to anger and a desire for revenge. Using Anakin's reaction to the death of his mother - which he perceived as his fault - as an example. Shaak Ti's lack of desire for revenge seems to imply she had come to terms with the deaths of her Padawans. It certainly wouldn't be enough to unbalance her in a duel. Yet only once has she used said rage to Force choke high profile adversaries of Shaak Ti's caliber. Choke-ing doesn't have to be the specific example, she's used Rage for Force Pushes before, or telekinetics, pretty much the same just using different methods. As for the quote, I'm just going to use this again. She killed herself trying to get him, Right after he uses the lines "The dark side is inexhaustible." and "I'm only here for your blood." Yes that's right, I've decided I'm not accepting the Idea that she wanted to kill them both to protect Brood. Mainly because I just noticed the line "She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach," She wouldn't have been surprised if she'd meant it to happen, and even Ti would realise she was the best hope for killing Vader and ending the empire's Regime and hunting of the Jedi. She sent Brood away from her willingly, instead of letting her stay to help, because she was Wary that Brood was still tainted by the Dark Side. She wouldn't end her own life purposefully and leave Brood on Felucia along, brooding (Unintentional pun) over the death of her master, wanting revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) even Ti would realise she was the best hope for killing Vader and ending the empire's Regime and hunting of the Jedi. Lol...where have I read that before? XD Edited January 21, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Choke-ing doesn't have to be the specific example, she's used Rage for Force Pushes before, or telekinetics, pretty much the same just using different methods. As for the quote, I'm just going to use this again. She killed herself trying to get him, Right after he uses the lines "The dark side is inexhaustible." and "I'm only here for your blood." Yes that's right, I've decided I'm not accepting the Idea that she wanted to kill them both to protect Brood. Mainly because I just noticed the line "She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach," She wouldn't have been surprised if she'd meant it to happen, and even Ti would realise she was the best hope for killing Vader and ending the empire's Regime and hunting of the Jedi. She sent Brood away from her willingly, instead of letting her stay to help, because she was Wary that Brood was still tainted by the Dark Side. She wouldn't end her own life purposefully and leave Brood on Felucia along, brooding (Unintentional pun) over the death of her master, wanting revenge.Unfortunately I feel it does, because Shaak Ti can simply weather the rest of Ventress' assaults. As for the rest of your post, I'm at a loss as to what your point is... she tried to kill Marek, took a risk, and died. Great? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Unfortunately I feel it does, because Shaak Ti can simply weather the rest of Ventress' assaults. As for the rest of your post, I'm at a loss as to what your point is... she tried to kill Marek, took a risk, and died. Great? She can try. She took a massive risk for absolutely no reason, because he taunted her? Surely that means something, if she was truly weathering his force blasts, and out dueling him, she wouldn't have needed to take such a foolish risk unless she was a madwoman or taunted into it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Lol...where have I read that before? XD Oi, you dragged me into this with your PM, now help me or die! That thing that would take Marek down a few pegs would be nice, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 It's outright stated in the canon that Shaak Ti's plan became protecting Maris Brood from the Empire, I didn't just pull that out of my hyper-drive. As for the rest, I will debate it later, for the moment I'm too busy, but her plan was definitely to kill the assassin and kill herself once she realised how powerful this agent was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Oi, you dragged me into this with your PM, now help me or die! That thing that would take Marek down a few pegs would be nice, too! Well I don't have really any info for Ventress(I do but it's rather meh then probably what you have on her), hence why I PM'd you cause you seem more knowledable on her. Besides I don't really care who wins, I just didn't want this to be a one sided fight. Anyway I would, but unfortunetly, my source has gotten disappointed with the Star Wars post EU getting kicked around and so forth saying he is kinda done with Star Wars. So I don't think I am gonna be able to get that information. Edited January 21, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 It's outright stated in the canon that Shaak Ti's plan became protecting Maris Brood from the Empire, I didn't just pull that out of my hyper-drive. As for the rest, I will debate it later, for the moment I'm too busy, but her plan was definitely to kill the assassin and kill herself once she realised how powerful this agent was. Protecting Brood =/= Going suicidal to let her live. Although a quote would be nice, so I could read into the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 As for the rest, I will debate it later, for the moment I'm too busy, but her plan was definitely to kill the assassin and kill herself once she realised how powerful this agent was. That's the impression the novel gives as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Well I don't have really any info for Ventress, hence why I PM'd you cause you seem more knowledable on her. Besides I don't really care who wins, I just didn't want this to be a one sided fight. Anyway I would, but unfortunetly, my source has gotten disappointed with the Star Wars post EU getting kicked around and so forth saying he is kinda done with Star Wars. So I don't think I am gonna be able to get that information. Bug him, bug him a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 She can try. She took a massive risk for absolutely no reason, because he taunted her? Surely that means something, if she was truly weathering his force blasts, and out dueling him, she wouldn't have needed to take such a foolish risk unless she was a madwoman or taunted into it I only have the game to go on, but judging by the cutscenes Shaak Ti has been significantly injured by this point and was not necessarily a risk but a lost ditch attempt to defeat him, which failed. Unless there is actual evidence of her being taunted, or losing her temper, I'd deem it a leap in logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Bug him, bug him a lot! I'd rather not lol, though did get that he had trouble with just about everyone he fought including a Shadow Guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Protecting Brood =/= Going suicidal to let her live. Although a quote would be nice, so I could read into the whole thing. You don't seem to get her logic, if she killed the assassin and her presence in the Force remained then she knew Vader himself would come and she didn't believe she had a chance at defeating him without adequate advantages, most of which she didn't have. Hence getting herself killed so that Vader would believe she is dead to. So in the time she had she tried her best to take Maris Brood off the path of the Dark Side and once her time had come she was going to die in the name of the Jedi Order and in the protection of Brood. Her hope was that she would finally train a student in the light and convince her to abandon her thirst for vengeance in time before she died. Edited January 21, 2014 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 It's outright stated in the canon that Shaak Ti's plan became protecting Maris Brood from the Empire, I didn't just pull that out of my hyper-drive. As for the rest, I will debate it later, for the moment I'm too busy, but her plan was definitely to kill the assassin and kill herself once she realised how powerful this agent was.Can someone update me on this suicide business? Why would Shaak Ti kill herself? How can she kill Marek if she's dead? And no I don't buy the mutual kill trope if that's what it is, you can't predict that kind of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 I only have the game to go on, but judging by the cutscenes Shaak Ti has been significantly injured by this point and was not necessarily a risk but a lost ditch attempt to defeat him, which failed. Unless there is actual evidence of her being taunted, or losing her temper, I'd deem it a leap in logic. Shaak Ti wasn't injured until she got herself killed. Otherwise she pretty much dominated the duel. There are several instances where Starkiller barely blocks her blows or acts in desperation to off balance her (by attacking the Sarlaac). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I still think we're underestimating Ventress here. Fisto trained Jedi, he knew how to wield 2 sabers enough to take Grevious out with them, and yet he was completely caught off balance by Ventress' use of hers, so much so that he would have died had he not rolled into a river. She then proceeded, whilst tired and withered, to defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi. If we count Video games, she managed to face off both Luminara Unduli and Aayla Secura in a duel. She thrashed Unduli, and survived against Unduli/Ahsoka She had the defensive skills to face off against Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan kenobi together on multiple occasions, two Jedi who fought together almost constantly, could complement each other perfectly, and she still lived and managed to hold them off to accomplish her objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Can someone update me on this suicide business? Why would Shaak Ti kill herself? How can she kill Marek if she's dead? And no I don't buy the mutual kill trope if that's what it is, you can't predict that kind of stuff. he snarled. "I'm only here for your blood." "And you may yet have it, or I yours." On her last three words, she struck three blows that each partially found their mark. The first burned a sizzling line down the apprentice's left shoulder. The second scored diagonally across his chest. The third would have skewered his right eye had he not held her back at the last minute with a desperate telekinetic block that stopped her lightsaber barely a millimeter from his skin. He could feel his eyelashes and eyebrows burning. The right side of his sight was entirely blue. She gasped and staggered backward. Her lightsaber and her gaze dropped. A full half meter of red blade emerged from her stomach, then the rest came free with a hiss. There. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Shaak Ti wasn't injured until she got herself killed. Otherwise she pretty much dominated the duel. There are several instances where Starkiller barely blocks her blows or acts in desperation to off balance her (by attacking the Sarlaac). He backed away, shocked by how close he had come to death and how lucky he had been to defeat her. He had raised his lightsaber by reflex. She had, in the desperation of her final assault, practically thrown herself on the blade. Key word = Desperation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 There.So, she made a miscalculation and was killed. Doesn't look like suicide to me, not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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