Jugg Rotation Queries

[KeyboardNinja]

Ok, noobie Jugg tank here…

 

Critique, thoughts and ideas are welcome, please. Here's my current set of collected thoughts:

 

Opener

 

1. Charge + Enrage + Saber Reflect (only if boss has ranged/force/tech attacks)
   
2. Smash
   
3. Crushing Blow
   
4. Retaliate + Single Taunt
   
5. Force Scream
   
6. Backhand
   
7. Ravage + AoE Taunt
   
8. Sundering Blow
   
9. Force Choke (or Vicious Slash, depending on Rage)
   

 

Obviously, Retaliate on CD.

 

Rotation

 

From there, I just keep using things on CD, with Vicious Slash subbed in for Assault whenever I have enough Rage to avoid delaying what comes next, and Force Choke for Rage generation assuming I don't need it for adds (and assuming I've tabulated enough threat). I'll usually reserve Backhand for adds, since it does negligible DPS and is primarily only interesting as a hard stun and a high threat builder (it's the only ability which does higher single-target threat than Crushing Blow).

 

There are a couple problems with this though, and I think the bulk of it comes down to the Revenge stacks. The problem I have is that Smash and Force Scream are only spaced by 4.5 seconds in a rotation which has a strict period of 12 seconds. In order to use my Revenge stacks optimally while still keeping Smash and Force Scream always on cooldown, I think I need to space them exactly evenly. This would imply that I need to switch up the following abilities in my opener:

 

• Retaliate + Single Taunt
  
• Backhand
  
• Force Scream
  
• Ravage + AoE Taunt
  

 

Strictly speaking, it doesn't matter in terms of threat if I use Force Scream first or second in that series, since I have the taunt debuff to work with. However, delaying Force Scream does mean that my mitigation is just a shade lower than it could have been (it's a DtPS increase of about 0.56 DtPS, assuming a 6.5 minute fight). I'm not sure if that's a worthwhile tradeoff.

 

Another idea is to simply delay Smash arbitrarily until I get lucky on Revenge or until the debuff is about to wear off. This has some advantages for Rage management (since Force Scream is pretty much always going to be free then), but I think it might be a DPS loss since Smash hits extremely hard (much harder than VS) even on a single target and it's very cheap, even if you only get one or two Revenge stacks.

 

So how is this situation handled in general? Obviously, it would seem that Force Scream has priority over Smash, but does fitting in that extra Vicious Slash (or even better, Vicious Throw during execute) compensate for delaying Smash? Alternatively, do you just want to space Smash and Scream in the opener (at the cost of very slightly more damage taken) and hope for evenly distributed Revenge procs? Boss-specific advice is welcomed as well.

Edited December 17, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[lordbadtamaru]

I'd know next to nothing

 

Tank spec for me is that cool spec I use for dailies cause it looks cool but i would never use it in an op

[Marb]

That opener you listed (backhand>scream) is about as resource efficient as it gets. The only other thing to remember is to make sure retaliation is put on cooldown immediately before launching into a ravage, even if it delays ravage slightly. I think delaying ravage for retaliation is ok, but I doubt delaying smash for revenge stacks (for a vicious slash) is ever worth it, unless it means you wont have the rage to use the next force scream.

 

I tend to use backhand/choke on cooldown, staggering them by 30 seconds between each-other on encounters with no adds. Force push is another one, assuming you don't have adds, it's free and it's better than an assault (anything to fill in that post force scream deadzone). I opt to use force push>sunder after ravage, that syncs up sunder so that it's always used before all the 12 second abilities come up, ensuring I always have the rage to hit them all (I use choke a little later, forcing in that 30 second gap with backhand).

 

EDIT: About delaying smash, you could keep scream>backhand, but then delay a smash by a single gcd, and hit smash/scream on cooldown after that. You could put this gcd gap in during tank down time or after a swap something.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Marb

[Vaidinah]

Ok, noobie Jugg tank here…

 

Critique, thoughts and ideas are welcome, please. Here's my current set of collected thoughts:

 

Opener

 

1. Charge + Enrage + Saber Reflect (only if boss has ranged/force/tech attacks)
   
2. Smash
   
3. Crushing Blow
   
4. Retaliate + Single Taunt
   
5. Force Scream
   
6. Backhand
   
7. Ravage + AoE Taunt
   
8. Sundering Blow
   
9. Force Choke (or Vicious Slash, depending on Rage)
   

 

Obviously, Retaliate on CD.

 

Rotation

 

From there, I just keep using things on CD, with Vicious Slash subbed in for Assault whenever I have enough Rage to avoid delaying what comes next, and Force Choke for Rage generation assuming I don't need it for adds (and assuming I've tabulated enough threat). I'll usually reserve Backhand for adds, since it does negligible DPS and is primarily only interesting as a hard stun and a high threat builder (it's the only ability which does higher single-target threat than Crushing Blow).

 

There are a couple problems with this though, and I think the bulk of it comes down to the Revenge stacks. The problem I have is that Smash and Force Scream are only spaced by 4.5 seconds in a rotation which has a strict period of 12 seconds. In order to use my Revenge stacks optimally while still keeping Smash and Force Scream always on cooldown, I think I need to space them exactly evenly. This would imply that I need to switch up the following abilities in my opener:

 

• Retaliate + Single Taunt
  
• Backhand
  
• Force Scream
  
• Ravage + AoE Taunt
  

 

Strictly speaking, it doesn't matter in terms of threat if I use Force Scream first or second in that series, since I have the taunt debuff to work with. However, delaying Force Scream does mean that my mitigation is just a shade lower than it could have been (it's a DtPS increase of about 0.56 DtPS, assuming a 6.5 minute fight). I'm not sure if that's a worthwhile tradeoff.

 

Another idea is to simply delay Smash arbitrarily until I get lucky on Revenge or until the debuff is about to wear off. This has some advantages for Rage management (since Force Scream is pretty much always going to be free then), but I think it might be a DPS loss since Smash hits extremely hard (much harder than VS) even on a single target and it's very cheap, even if you only get one or two Revenge stacks.

 

So how is this situation handled in general? Obviously, it would seem that Force Scream has priority over Smash, but does fitting in that extra Vicious Slash (or even better, Vicious Throw during execute) compensate for delaying Smash? Alternatively, do you just want to space Smash and Scream in the opener (at the cost of very slightly more damage taken) and hope for evenly distributed Revenge procs? Boss-specific advice is welcomed as well.

 

The optimal opener I go for is as follows (use Retaliation on cooldown as it appears):

 

Saber Throw (or Force Leap) with Enrage

Smash

Crushing Blow + Retaliation

----------

Taunt

----------

Ravage

Force Scream

Backhand

----------

AoE taunt

----------

Force Push

Force Choke

Vicious Slash

Sundering Assault

----------

Taunt

----------

As you stated, pushing back Force Scream even here increases your damage taken by a miniscule amount, but it also puts the Force Scream + Smash in a good spot for future rotations. By placing Sundering Assault so late, you can do the most possible damage and threat in the opener to ensure control on the boss.

 

When it comes to using Smash vs. Vicious Slash, Smash actually only does a little bit more damage than VS. My tooltip damage on both has Smash doing 2230-2359 (avg of 2294.5) compared to VS doing 2001-2295 (avg of 2148) so that equates to almost 150 damage or less than 10% extra damage. I would wait until you either have 2-3 stacks of Revenge or if the debuff is about to wear off. You can also use Sweeping Slash if needed to regain the debuff if it falls off (in place of a VS) or if Smash gets resisted.

 

For those who don't know (not saying you KeyboardNinja), tank DPS is really very similar to DPSing on another character. Your main rotation/priority system revolves around using your most important skills ASAP, filling in the gaps with your strongest fillers, and then using your weakest fillers (typically rage builders or resource neutral skills). Of course, the weakest fillers can be needed a bit earlier to make sure your most important skills have the necessary resources available when they come up. I'll list these for our class in order of priority for these 3 tiers of skills for a single target.

 

In the case of Juggernaught tanks, our most important skills (top tier) in our non-opening rotation are as follows:

Retaliation (highest DPS and off the GCD)

Force Scream (for least possible damage taken)

Crushing Blow (keep up buffs, high damage, and more Retaliations)

Smash (keep up debuffs or when 2-3 stacks of Revenge are accumulated)

 

Then we have our good filler skills (middle tier) to use whenever the above are not available or the time is not appropriate like these:

Vicious Throw

Force Choke

Ravage

Backhand

Force Push

Saber Throw (if possible)

Vicious Slash

 

Lastly, we have our weakest fillers (low tier) that are used as follows:

Sundering Assault

Force Leap

Assault

 

To explain one skill that may be surprising, Force Choke is amazingly good. The tooltip for mine states that it does 961 damage every second, but it hits 4 times and gives us 3 Rage. It actually does more damage than any other skill except for Ravage or Vicious Throw.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Vaidinah

[Marb]

The optimal opener I go for is as follows (use Retaliation on cooldown as it appears):

 

Saber Throw (or Force Leap) with Enrage

Smash

Crushing Blow + Retaliation

----------

Taunt

----------

Ravage

Force Scream

Backhand

----------

AoE taunt

----------

Force Push

Force Choke

Vicious Slash

Sundering Assault

----------

Taunt

----------

As you stated, pushing back Force Scream even here increases your damage taken by a miniscule amount, but it also puts the Force Scream + Smash in a good spot for future rotations. By placing Sundering Assault so late, you can do the most possible damage and threat in the opener to ensure control on the boss.

 

I considered an opener like this in terms if pure burst threat, but taunt boosting probably eliminates the need to reorder the ability string based on threat in such a literal way, especially if we're skipping saber throw. I feel like we may as well stick to maximizing force scream if we're using taunts, at least at this stage in the game.

 

When it comes to using Smash vs. Vicious Slash, Smash actually only does a little bit more damage than VS. My tooltip damage on both has Smash doing 2230-2359 (avg of 2294.5) compared to VS doing 2001-2295 (avg of 2148) so that equates to almost 150 damage or less than 10% extra damage. I would wait until you either have 2-3 stacks of Revenge or if the debuff is about to wear off. You can also use Sweeping Slash if needed to regain the debuff if it falls off (in place of a VS) or if Smash gets resisted.

 

I think smash is only so good because it has a high threat multiplier, so in that sense it's probably quite a bit better than vicious slash in terms of threat, but not much different in actual damage. Interesting point on refreshing the accuracy debuff with sweeping slash, I never considered that. I should probably pay more attention to that debuff considering it can actually miss.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Marb

[Vaidinah]

A point I'd make about maximizing mitigation at the very beginning is that it's the least important time to do so. When you start almost any fight (outside of possibly Calphayus), your healers are full on resources and have very little to heal as it stands. Thus, that tiny bit of damage reduction is rendered unnecessary.

[Marb]

I agree, a sorc bubble would be barely broken by the time force scream goes up in most scenarios.

 

The way revenge stacks conflict with force scream usage on the opener is annoying though, I wonder if that's an oversight.

[Methoxa]

You have to change your rotation according to your raid. When you have dps who wait a little before attacking then your rotation is ok. But when orbitals strike the moment you force leap you have to use taunt earlier. As long as the boss aggro is on you and you use beneficial talents such as crushing blow (3% dmgreduction), everything is fine.