Top 10 most under-rated Force Users

[S_W_LeGenD]

You made the claim that everything Plagueis wanted to do, Vitiate had done, well Vitiate hasn't become a Celestial has he? nope.

 

^That was my entire point.

I modified my response above. Recheck it.

 

Also, I think that capabilities of Celestials should be distinguished from hype and facts. If Celestials were indeed controlling the Force itself, how come Plagueis and Sidious were able to imbalance the Force by tilting it in the favor of the dark side? Why didn't Celestials managed to end this imbalance?

Edited December 16, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

Most of these come from Plagueis vs. Vitiate.

 

Plagueis included is nothing next to him.

 

i find your casual comparison between them,like Vitiate was some random Sith Lord disturbing.

 

If they compare the number of force secrets they know and the magnitude of their force power, Plagueis loses outright.

 

Vitiate's lightning would either completely overwhelm and fry Plagueis

 

Plagueis is no way ,i mean *no way*, even close to a guy that consumed a planet and that much sith lords of which at least 100 of them are real powerful.

 

Which means -yea- you overestimate Plagueis.

 

Yeah, and what did Plagueis do? He killed Venamis, that's about it.

 

Plagueis have never been tested in ways like Sith Emperor have been; Plagueis does not compares to Sith Emperor on various levels.

 

Plagueis is no where near as powerful as Sith Emperor.

 

Plagueis have nothing on Sith Emperor.

 

So that's some recent ones. How's that for underestimation?

[LadyKulvax]

I modified my response above. Recheck it.

 

Also, I think that capabilities of Celestials should be distinguished from hype and facts. If Celestials were indeed controlling the Force itself, how come Plagueis and Sidious were able to imbalance the Force by tilting it in the favor of the dark side? Why didn't Celestials managed to end this imbalance?

 

Oh I'm sorry, he came close to Abeloth how now? she is literally immortal, you literally can't wipe her out without taking the Force with her, she is also a manifestation of the Force a dozen times more powerful than the most powerful Force User of all time, Luke Skywalker.

 

Not only this, but Abeloth is just a puppet of the actual Celestials, she gets let out of her cage when someone meddles with time.

 

But once again, the Celestials are pretty much confirmed to be the source behind any Vergence, when Plagueis and Sidious tried to meddle with life itself, the Sith as an order became utterly doomed for trying to change the status quo even more than they had already done.

 

Vitiate doesn't even come close to Abeloth, the Ones or the Celestials much like Luke, Sidious and Caedus don't.

 

The Ones themselves have been confirmed by Leland Chee to be the most powerful beings of the entire mythos with the Father on top.

 

Yet even they aren't as powerful as the Celestials because the Celestials are literally the force behind the Force.

 

Oh and the Celestials DID end the imbalance in the Force by creating the Chosen One in the first place, who doomed them and the reign the Dark Side had.

 

Vitiate likely suffered at the hands of the Celestials as well, they knew what he tried to do, so what happens? Scourge has a vision of a being that destroys the Emperor, the pieces are set in place to prolong the time required till the Hero comes along and then Vitiate gets taken out, clearly the Celestials didn't like the idea of being eaten.

 

Regardless, there is no point to this discussion, you made the blanket claim that everything Plagueis wanted to achieve, Vitiate had already done, well you were wrong, simple.

Edited December 16, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[S_W_LeGenD]

You guys are overhyping Plagueis a lot.

 

What have Plagueis done that makes some of you assume that he is a match for Sith Emperor? Force-users beneath Sith Emperor have some amazing feats to their name so why Plagueis deserves special treatment?

Edited December 16, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

oh i'm sorry, he came close to abeloth how now? She is literally immortal, you literally can't wipe her out without taking the force with her, she is also a manifestation of the force a dozen times more powerful than the most powerful force user of all time, luke skywalker.

 

Not only this, but abeloth is just a puppet of the actual celestials, she gets let out of her cage when someone meddles with time.

 

But once again, the celestials are pretty much confirmed to be the source behind any vergence, when plagueis and sidious tried to meddle with life itself, the sith as an order became utterly doomed for trying to change the status quo even more than they had already done.

 

Vitiate doesn't even come close to abeloth, the ones or the celestials much like luke, sidious and caedus don't.

 

The ones themselves have been confirmed by leland chee to be the most powerful beings of the entire mythos with the father on top.

 

Yet even they aren't as powerful as the celestials because the celestials are literally the force behind the force.

 

Oh and the celestials did end the imbalance in the force by creating the chosen one in the first place, who doomed them and the reign the dark side had.

 

Vitiate likely suffered at the hands of the celestials as well, they knew what he tried to do, so what happens? Scourge has a vision of a being that destroys the emperor, the pieces are set in place to prolong the time required till the hero comes along and then vitiate gets taken out, clearly the celestials didn't like the idea of being eaten.

 

Regardless, there is no point to this discussion, you made the blanket claim that everything plagueis wanted to achieve, vitiate had already done, well you were wrong, simple.

 

kablam!

[Aurbere]

You guys are overhyping Plagueis a lot.

 

What have Plagueis done that makes some of you assume that he is a match for Sith Emperor? Force-users beneath Sith Emperor have some amazing feats to their name so why Plagueis deserves special treatment?

 

*Wonders if he should post BattleZone analysis spoilers*

 

Nope. Wouldn't work.

[Beniboybling]

You guys are overhyping Plagueis a lot.

 

What have Plagueis done that makes some of you assume that he is a match for Sith Emperor? Force-users beneath Sith Emperor have some amazing feats to their name so why Plagueis deserves special treatment?

We are saying that Plagueis, the master of Darth Sidious and near pinnacle of the Rule of Two, whose very presence caused an impromptu winter on Naboo, who became master over life and death, and whose destruction caused a powerful tremor in the Force, is capable of challenging the Sith Emperor - which for the record Revan, Meetra and Scourge were capable of doing. Whereas we have you comparing the Sith Emperor to a Force god.

 

Over-hyping Vader's left butcheek.

 

I don't think further discussion is necessary, Plagueis needs to go on this list.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Beniboybling

[S_W_LeGenD]

Oh I'm sorry, he came close to Abeloth how now? she is literally immortal, you literally can't wipe her out without taking the Force with her, she is also a manifestation of the Force a dozen times more powerful than the most powerful Force User of all time, Luke Skywalker.

Luke is the most powerful Force-user of all time?

 

"Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, was being accused for the millions of deaths the second civil war supplied?"

 

"Luke Skywalker is still the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. I think we should assume he has a plan."

 

"...but rather a fight with one of the most powerful Jedi in history"

 

Myth busted, I think.

 

Abeloth would take down the Force itself, if taken down? How exactly? She is a Force-user, not an extension of the Force itself or something like that. And she have been taken down already. Darth Krayt rose to supremacy after the defeat of Abeloth.

 

Abeloth was weakened by loss of her various avatars in combat against several Force-users and final blow was struck by the duo of Krayt and Luke. Though Luke felt that their was a possibility for her return (based on his history with Sidious in the past) and he secured that special dagger for this purpose which could kill any Celestial or related, just in case.

 

Not only this, but Abeloth is just a puppet of the actual Celestials, she gets let out of her cage when someone meddles with time.

Abeloth wasn't a puppet of anybody, she was so powerful and dangerous that she was held (or imprisoned) inside The Maw for this very reason.

 

But once again, the Celestials are pretty much confirmed to be the source behind any Vergence, when Plagueis and Sidious tried to meddle with life itself, the Sith as an order became utterly doomed for trying to change the status quo even more than they had already done.

Plagueis and Sidious imbalanced the Force with their combined might and use of Sith Sorcery. Celestials couldn't do jack about this development. The Force, having its own will, did retaliate by creating an extremely capable agent of light in the form of Anakin Skywalker but his accomplishment caused more harm then good; Sidious returned and wreaked even more havoc then before, and he left the galaxy in such a state that affiliated circumstances led to rise of new Sith Lords in the future.

 

Vitiate doesn't even come close to Abeloth, the Ones or the Celestials much like Luke, Sidious and Caedus don't.

The Ones are the most powerful Celestials? No?

 

Vitiate does have some incredible showings and he was getting close to immortality levels of Celestials:

 

Sith Emperor left powerful nexus in his wake, bossed around millions of Sith Lords (including some remarkably powerful ones), empowered thousands of individuals with his power, destroyed/defeated multiple (powerful) Force-users in single combat, controlled and endured most ambitious and dangerous ritual ever attempted without use of artifacts, influenced entire world(s) with his powers (could possibly even destroy an entire world singlehandedly during his prime), achieved incredibly advanced level of immortality & Midichlorian manipulation and had galactic reach with his Force abilities.

 

My recent thread on Vitiate covers this entire matter effectively.

 

The Ones themselves have been confirmed by Leland Chee to be the most powerful beings of the entire mythos with the Father on top.

He vouched for The Father but it is still a claim unless reinforced in canon literature. Problem is that their is no official consensus on these matters and the mythos itself is plagued with inconsistencies.

 

Yet even they aren't as powerful as the Celestials because the Celestials are literally the force behind the Force.

Celestials accomplished wonders in technological matters and they developed (super) tools which they used to reshape galaxies. However, this doesn't suggests that they were more powerful than other powerful Force-users in general.

 

Regardless, there is no point to this discussion, you made the blanket claim that everything Plagueis wanted to achieve, Vitiate had already done, well you were wrong, simple.

Maybe my claim was more ambitious then I realized but Vitiate did ticked lot of check-boxes in Plagueis's wish-list.

Edited December 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

He vouched for The Father but it is still a claim unless reinforced in canon literature. Problem is that their is no official consensus on these matters.

Are you aware of who Leland Chee is? Hand of God ring any bells? He presides over canon, he regulates all Star Wars literature and is aware of all Star Wars literature. Nothing happens in the Star Wars EU without his approval, if he says something, you sit up and listen, because its effectively G-Canon. It is his job to provide official consensus on continuity.

 

/rantover.

[S_W_LeGenD]

We are saying that Plagueis, the master of Darth Sidious and near pinnacle of the Rule of Two, whose very presence caused an impromptu winter on Naboo, who became master over life and death, and whose destruction caused a powerful tremor in the Force, is capable of challenging the Sith Emperor - which for the record Revan, Meetra and Scourge were capable of doing. Whereas we have you comparing the Sith Emperor to a Force god.

Really?

 

Conclusive remarks:

 

Sith Emperor possessed power of such magnitude that he overshadowed millions of Force-users during his span of existence (including remarkably powerful ones) and was able to spread his influence on galactic scale without use of technological means. In single combat, Emperor Vitiate could disarm and eliminate multiple powerful Force-users simultaneously. On one occasion, Emperor Vitiate killed 9 Dark Council members after summoning them in to his throne room (Scourge found this out and informed Revan and Meetra about this development; for more information, consult Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan). It shall be noted that a lone Dark Council member is considered to be a dark side prodigy (Star Wars: The Old Republic Revan; Star Wars: The Old Republic: Game: Game; Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia). Emperor Vitiate possessed such command of dark sorcery that he could influence whole planets, transforming them in to nexuses of dark side. Emperor Vitiate had acquired such capabilities which Darth Plagueis wished to acquire and only Darth Sidious came close to unlock among all of the known Sith Lords in the mythos. In-fact, Emperor Vitiate was making arrangements to transform himself in to an omnipotent being of unbelievable power by consuming the entire galaxy after centuries worth of studying the dark side (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia). This grand plan was fortunately or unfortunately compromised by actions of HoT (Hero of Tython) and his allies (including Lord Scourge) who stopped Emperor Vitiate before it was too late. Emperor Vitiate was so powerful that even the mighty Dread Masters served him and only him.

 

Addressing misconceptions:

 

It is often asserted that the trio of Revan, Meetra and Scourge could undermine Emperor Vitiate in single combat. This was a possibility but a remote one; the trio could undermine Emperor Vitiate but only in circumstantial way. The novel explicitly confirms that even this formidable trio did not match the power of Emperor Vitiate:

 

 

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan:

 

Scourge had eagerly accepted, knowing his new position would give him both time and opportunity to find another way to stop Emperor Vitiate before his madness and hunger consumed the galaxy.

 

"Open yourself to the dark side," the Emperor said, and Scourge felt the air around him begin to swirl with power.

 

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to carry on their cause.

 

 

As apparent from the aforementioned revelation, Emperor Vitiate would have eventually slaughtered even the trio of Revan, Meetra and Scourge in single combat. While it is true that their is strength in numbers and **** can happen during combat situations, unprecedentedly powerful individuals are still not easy to defeat.

 

No, Plagueis is not in the league of Sith Emperor, not even close.

 

Over-hyping Vader's left butcheek.

 

I don't think further discussion is necessary, Plagueis needs to go on this list.

An already overhyped character should make it to the list? Why?

 

Their are much more valid candidates.

 

Are you aware of who Leland Chee is? Hand of God ring any bells? He presides over canon, he regulates all Star Wars literature and is aware of all Star Wars literature. Nothing happens in the Star Wars EU without his approval, if he says something, you sit up and listen, because its effectively G-Canon. It is his job to provide official consensus on continuity.

 

/rantover.

I don't care about who is the most powerful Force-user in the mythos. This was not my argument in the first place.

 

Also, things have changed since Disney acquired the rights of Star Wars. Disney administration will make the last call in these matters.

 

We can respect the opinion of authors or database keepers but we need to be cautious in these matters. Until or unless, Chee canonizes his declaration, his declaration is nothing more then an informed opinion which might be taken in to consideration.

Edited December 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Selenial]

Their are much more valid candidates.

 

I can already predict this conversation.

 

Beni: Like who?

Response: Any and every single character in the entire TOR era.

[Beniboybling]

Really?

 

No, Plagueis is not in the league of Sith Emperor, not even close.

 

And already overhyped character should make it to the list? Why?

 

Their are much more valid candidates.

I'm confused, I've already made it abudantly clear that I regard your opinions on the Sith Emperor to be frankly absurd, so I'm not quite sure why you think that excerpt proves anything...

 

I think that at this point we would all concur that you are one of many who overate and underrate characters. Or more specifically overrate OR characters and underrate PT characters.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

LeGenD I will once more ask you to stop hijacking my thread with debates on whether or not Vitiate or any other TOR character is more powerful than 'x' Star Wars character(s).

 

If you want this debate to be had, open your own thread and discuss it openly there, this is NOT about the discussion you are having.

 

So please either join us on the genuine topic being had here or do as I am politely asking you to.

[Beniboybling]

We can respect the opinion of authors but we need to be cautious in these matters. Until or unless, Chee canonizes his declaration, his declaration is nothing more then an informed opinion which may taken in to consideration.

He already has, that's the point. People ask him for effective canon statements.

 

Of course this can change in the future, but this is practically how it is right now.

 

Remembering that the Father is a George Lucas creation. Lets put two and two together.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Beniboybling

[S_W_LeGenD]

I'm confused, I've already made it abudantly clear that I regard your opinions on the Sith Emperor to be frankly absurd, so I'm not quite sure why you think that excerpt proves anything...

 

I think that at this point we would all concur that you are one of many who overate and underrate characters. Or more specifically overrate OR characters and underrate PT characters.

You regard my opinions on Sith Emperor absurd? I am using canon sources to support my arguments, not making stuff about him.

 

You, in contrast, went wild with speculations and massively misrepresented Sith Emperor here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=685181

 

You shouldn't be judging my position vis-à-vis Sith Emperor. Everything is much better researched and put in this thread in comparison: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=703103

 

Accept the facts, Beni.

 

Sidious, Luke, Yoda and Plagueis are among the most overhyped characters of the mythos.

 

I can already predict this conversation.

 

Beni: Like who?

Response: Any and every single character in the entire TOR era.

From PT era, I nominated following:-

 

- Agen Kolar

- Rahm Kota

- Shaak Ti

 

I put up some additional names but you dismissed them, and I didn't argue.

 

Now, their are only 10 spots in this thread and their is a long list of underestimated characters. It is not easy to decide on nominations. And yes, TOR/ancient era characters are more underestimated in general.

 

LeGenD I will once more ask you to stop hijacking my thread with debates on whether or not Vitiate or any other TOR character is more powerful than 'x' Star Wars character(s).

 

If you want this debate to be had, open your own thread and discuss it openly there, this is NOT about the discussion you are having.

 

So please either join us on the genuine topic being had here or do as I am politely asking you to.

Their is no sign of hijack in this thread. People are nominating characters just like me and discussions related to such nominations are taking place in this thread accordingly. Yes, some misconceptions are also being addressed on the side-lines but I am trying to keep this matter minimum on my end.

 

He already has, that's the point. People ask him for effective canon statements.

 

Of course this can change in the future, but this is practically how it is right now.

 

Remembering that the Father is a George Lucas creation. Lets put two and two together.

I am neutral about this.

Edited December 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

For a future spot in the list, I would like to bring up my nomination for Master Ki-Adi Mundi. If it is taken seriously, I will post my reasoning tomorrow morning.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Following names should also get attention:

 

 

• Marka Ragnos
  
• Naga Sadow
  
• Exal Kressh
  
• Darth Thanaton
  
• Aryn Leener
  
• Orgus Din
  
• Jun Seros
  
• Bastilla Shan
  
• Darth Bandon
  

Edited December 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Accept the facts, Beni.

I think this statements speaks for itself, no?

 

I'd rather not play any further part in derailing this thread.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

I can already predict this conversation.

 

Beni: Like who?

Response: Any and every single character in the entire TOR era.

Following names should also get attention:

 

 

• Marka Ragnos
  
• Naga Sadow
  
• Exal Kressh
  
• Darth Thanaton
  
• Aryn Leener
  
• Orgus Din
  
• Jun Seros
  
• Bastilla Shan
  
• Darth Bandon
  

Traya? Traya is that you?

[Beniboybling]

For a future spot in the list, I would like to bring up my nomination for Master Ki-Adi Mundi. If it is taken seriously, I will post my reasoning tomorrow morning.

I'm intrigued, but my thoughts towards Mundi would be the same as Fisto.

[S_W_LeGenD]

I think this statements speaks for itself, no?

Your claims and rankings are not the most accurate in the world, they are not without errors or signs of underestimation of certain characters. The sooner you realize this, the better. On the positive side, you are very knowledgeable fan and I deeply respect you for this. You inspired me to look deeper in to certain matters of the lore.

 

My concern is factual representation of characters, nothing more and nothing less. This is exactly what my recent threads are about.

 

Traya? Traya is that you?

What about Sion?

Edited December 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Your claims and rankings are not the most accurate in the world, they are not without errors or signs of underestimation of certain characters. The sooner you realize this, the better. On the positive side, you are very knowledgeable fan and I deeply respect you for this. You inspired me to look deeper in to certain matters of the lore.

 

My concern is factual representation of characters, nothing more and nothing less. This is exactly what my recent threads are about.

Factual representation would involve considering the abilities of other characters outside the realm of the Old Republic era, rather than dismissing them out of hand without any attempt at comparison. Clearly it is not your concern.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Factual representation would involve considering the abilities of other characters outside the realm of the Old Republic era, rather than dismissing them out of hand without any attempt at comparison. Clearly it is not your concern.

I do consider the abilities of other characters outside the realm of the Old Republic era, never I have dismissed such abilities in debates.

 

Plagueis does not appears to be in the league of Sith Emperor, is not an indication of me underestimating the former character. Plagueis does have some amazing feats under his belt but same is true for many characters who are canonically implied to be less powerful then Sith Emperor, so once again, why special status for Plagueis? Because he is Sith Master of Sidious? This is not sufficient argument. Sidious have learned something from even Malgus.

 

Analogy: Ood Bnar tanked a supernova event. Want to believe that he is most powerful Force-user in the mythos?

Edited December 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

I'm intrigued, but my thoughts towards Mundi would be the same as Fisto.

 

You have underestimated Mundi in the past as well.

 

Order 66 victims in general have suffered from being severely underestimated. I do what I can for Plo Koon, but what about the others?

[Aurbere]

Following names should also get attention:

 

 

• Marka Ragnos
  
• Naga Sadow
  
• Exal Kressh
  
• Darth Thanaton
  
• Aryn Leener
  
• Orgus Din
  
• Jun Seros
  
• Bastilla Shan
  
• Darth Bandon
  

 

What makes these characters underrated? Because few people talk about them? Maybe people just don't feel the need to talk about them. Doesn't mean they are underrated.