Sin / shadow tank gearing post 2.5?

[Kadjunga]

I used to go for full endurance stuff on my sin when doing pvp but now that we no longer have a self heal for the 3 stacks im finding... that it might not be a good idea to keep the high endurance build still going. Sure, it provides 1 extra hit that you can take but would it be better to reaugment / gear out for more mitigation instead to take more than 1 extra hit.

 

Rarely do i happen in a situation where there aren't any healers around and even if there aren't, theres loads of survival tools to make it through the 10-20s you need to survive solo for help to arrive. Not to mention that the higher mitigation mods have more +willpower on em for higher damage as well.

 

So the question is...

 

would you suggest regearing / augmenting for mitigation instead of the high hp build? Or would you still keep the high end stuff? If so, why?

[Guiken]

So you throw 2k stat budget into mitigation, you get you 55% shield, your 45% absorb... Most parses and compiled data that I've seen have pointed to a 40% rate of attacks that can be shielded, IE, non critical, non internal etc. in a typical pvp scenario, and of those that cant be shielded are the hardest hitting such as Instacrit smahes, Thundering blast etc. So.. of that we'll say 55% chance you'll shield those "other" attacks, 22% are now shielded, of that, you apply your absorb of 45%... now you're looking at 9.9% overall abosrb. You're already sitting at about 5% absorb with the shield/abs rating you get naturally without even allocating points for it.

 

So you've given up 5~8k health (Which is actually considerably higher when thought of in terms of EHPs) and tons of bonus damage if you're running fortitude augs, for an additional average mitigation of 4.9%. Just haven't been able to justify that in my mind when you're seldom being actually focused as a pvp tank anyway AND those mitigation stats do ****all to help the guard damage you're receiving.

 

At the end of the day we're a second health pool for the healer and a peel/taunt machine, the health mods just seem to help fulfill that job a bit more reliably.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Guiken

[stupidsyrup]

I disagree with the above statement (yes I know how to quote people I'm just lazy like that:cool:)

 

If you min/Max like stated in the sticky in the Assassin Forums, you actually have a %57 chance to shield with Dark Ward up and %49 without, meaning over half the time thus getting 8 stacks of Dark Bulwark super easy, which then means those add on to the %45 you're already gonna absorb by %8 up to %53.

 

What you just read meant with Dark Ward up you're gonna shield over half the time then absorb over half the damage. Sounds like a win/win. Now mind you this is with Defense/Shield/Absorb Augs too. That stuff is expensive to re-aug'd after going full Endurance. Full Endurance is beneficial however when using Overload Saber for the %15 heal, and Medpacs for the %35 heal and also for taking more than one under %30 Max HP killing blows.

 

Personal experience from both the Mitigation side and the Sniper who tried to 1v1 a Mitigation Shadow? During that fight this guy dodged, parried, and deflected my Ambush, half my Series of Shots, 3 Followthroughs, and Absorbed my Explosive Probe. He didn't drop to less than %72 HP. That sounds like a win to me. And there's nothing more satisfying (and more annoying on the Snipers end) than Deflecting Leg Shots as your walk over a Fire Trap carrying the Huttball.

 

Plus for more damage you can just use a Willpower Stim rather than Endurance.

 

TLDR: Doing the math, Mitigation sounds like the better choice, however Endurance does have it's perks.

 

P.S. You're still gonna have 32-33k HP. And can use an Endurance Stim to get 35k plus without hurting any mitigation.

Edited December 13, 2013 by stupidsyrup

[Guiken]

If you min/Max like stated in the sticky in the Assassin Forums, you actually have a %57 chance to shield with Dark Ward up and %49 without, meaning over half the time thus getting 8 stacks of Dark Bulwark super easy, which then means those add on to the %45 you're already gonna absorb by %8 up to %53.

You're making the very flawed assumption that 100% of attacks in a warzone -CAN- be shielded at all, which is not the case by far and also that you, as a tank, are being focused continually.

 

Also, you get dark bulwark whether you itemized for tank gear or not, so itemizing for an additional 15% to shield 40% of inc damage (or 6% additional bulwark proc per attack) is marginal. You need to fresh dark ward every 15s regardless so at an estimated 22% shield chance on average for all incoming damage getting all stacks of bulwark is not easy unless you're in huttball or something and getting focused as a tank for some reason, even still, after 15 shields you must refresh, assuming it's not on cooldown... Under focus fire you cant count on bulwark or even dark ward since it will quickly be depleted of charges.

 

And there's nothing more satisfying (and more annoying on the Snipers end) than Deflecting Leg Shots as your walk over a Fire Trap carrying the Huttball.

You're not building much defense if any as a Sin tank over your natural. So you're going to have that regardless along with your deflection skill. Stacking shield/abs mitigation wont stop effects like legshot from occuring, stacking defense on a sintank is even less useful.

 

That being said, mitigation stats are useful in huttball, where you are actually likely to be focusd fired, which is why I have a second set just for huttball. In nearly any other scenario I wouldnt use them over the Higher Health or higher damage options.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Guiken

[iRedRIng]

You're making the very flawed assumption that 100% of attacks in a warzone -CAN- be shielded at all, which is not the case by far and also that you, as a tank, are being focused continually.

 

Also, you get dark bulwark whether you itemized for tank gear or not, so itemizing for an additional 15% to shield 40% of inc damage (or 6% additional bulwark proc per attack) is marginal. You need to fresh dark ward every 15s regardless so at an estimated 22% shield chance on average for all incoming damage getting all stacks of bulwark is not easy unless you're in huttball or something and getting focused as a tank for some reason, even still, after 15 shields you must refresh, assuming it's not on cooldown... Under focus fire you cant count on bulwark or even dark ward since it will quickly be depleted of charges.

 

 

You're not building much defense if any as a Sin tank over your natural. So you're going to have that regardless along with your deflection skill. Stacking shield/abs mitigation wont stop effects like legshot from occuring, stacking defense on a sintank is even less useful.

 

That being said, mitigation stats are useful in huttball, where you are actually likely to be focusd fired, which is why I have a second set just for huttball. In nearly any other scenario I wouldnt use them over the Higher Health or higher damage options.

 

In the current meta, as a tank you ARE focused continuously. Still, most damage you take can't be shielded so better to have high endurance if you go tank gear. But imo, better to just go full dps gear and hit harder so you kill before you get killed.

[stupidsyrup]

You're making the very flawed assumption that 100% of attacks in a warzone -CAN- be shielded at all, which is not the case by far and also that you, as a tank, are being focused continually.

Well yes and no. A good DPS stacks accuracy above %100 meaning that he's trying to bypass your defenses. So would not more mitigation be useful? Instead of eating everything he's throwing at you into your wall of HP, you're now resisting a lot of it.

 

Also, you get dark bulwark whether you itemized for tank gear or not, so itemizing for an additional 15% to shield 40% of inc damage (or 6% additional bulwark proc per attack) is marginal. You need to fresh dark ward every 15s regardless so at an estimated 22% shield chance on average for all incoming damage getting all stacks of bulwark is not easy unless you're in huttball or something and getting focused as a tank for some reason, even still, after 15 shields you must refresh, assuming it's not on cooldown... Under focus fire you cant count on bulwark or even dark ward since it will quickly be depleted of charges.

 

This is my favorite paragraph. Let's see, Dark Bulwark only comes when you shield, meaning you need a shield AKA Tank gear. Each stack of Dark Bulwark absorbs %1, so %8 maximum. And if you spam Dark Ward every 15 seconds you are a bad player. It's designed so you use it, gain Dark Bulwark for 20 seconds, then repeat. Meaning you should only use Dark Ward every 40 seconds, not 15. By spamming it there's no point to having Dark Bulwark, as it takes about 15 seconds to get to 5+ stacks.

 

You're not building much defense if any as a Sin tank over your natural. So you're going to have that regardless along with your deflection skill. Stacking shield/abs mitigation wont stop effects like legshot from occuring, stacking defense on a sintank is even less useful.

 

That being said, mitigation stats are useful in huttball, where you are actually likely to be focusd fired, which is why I have a second set just for huttball. In nearly any other scenario I wouldnt use them over the Higher Health or higher damage options.

What a load of crap. Defense is necessary on ANY Tank, to a certain extent before it becomes useless. But until that point, it's super effective. And your comment on not building past your natural....let's see how that %15 shield chance and a whole %6 defense from the tree gets you as a Tank.

 

I in no way bashed Endurance build as bad unlike you bashing mitigation. My Guardian is Endurance build. It is effective in it's ways, but all in all the mitigation is my preferred choice having seen both in action.

[stupidsyrup]

In the current meta, as a tank you ARE focused continuously. Still, most damage you take can't be shielded so better to have high endurance if you go tank gear. But imo, better to just go full dps gear and hit harder so you kill before you get killed.

 

My view on it is that in this game of high hitters, especially Takedowns, High Endurance is the way to go as a Tank in the action, such as Guardian or Vanguard. But as well all know Shadow Tanks are the weakest of the 3 in protection, so I would rather stack mitigation on my Assassin, who node guards most of the time. If I stack Mitigation and use a Willpower Stim I found it much easier to 1v1.

 

Yeah for Jugg or Guardian I agree Endurance, with Enraged Defense, Endure Pain, etc. that rely on a certain percentage of your max HP. But for Assassin who rely so heavily on their Shield to work, I would say they need the encouragement.

[Kadjunga]

Thanks for all the responses. Still a bit undecided however if to go over to mitigation or not.

 

Also... from some of the tanks on our server, they said that guard damage can also be mitigated by defense and shield. Is that even remotely true since i rarely pay attention to both the healers / my own healthpool close enough to notice.

 

that was one of the main reasons why i considered hopping over to mitigation build instead. Would provide longer surviability when guarding + when you are solo guarding / soloing, it helps to survive for longer.

[fleshtaker]

Thanks for all the responses. Still a bit undecided however if to go over to mitigation or not.

 

Also... from some of the tanks on our server, they said that guard damage can also be mitigated by defense and shield. Is that even remotely true since i rarely pay attention to both the healers / my own healthpool close enough to notice.

 

that was one of the main reasons why i considered hopping over to mitigation build instead. Would provide longer surviability when guarding + when you are solo guarding / soloing, it helps to survive for longer.

 

gearing a shadow tank is easy

 

remove every mod and enhancement with defence on it useless stat in pvp the base you get is enough

replace every mod and enhancement with these stats in order END,Shield,Absorb tho always take the mod or enhancement with the most endurance

use full fort augs

Fort or willpower stim depending on what your doing

never go 36points in tank tree make sure you get fade from infil tree