The current state of interrupts & the Sorc / Sage class

[AlrikFassbauer]

This game is rarely 1v1.

 

Uh, Arena ?

 

You are totally right, it is actually worse in a group scenario then a 1v1.

 

When you have multiple targets focusing a sorc, multiple people force charging a sorc and CCing the sorc your ability to cast goes down further.

 

Yes, and in any Arena, the probability of an 1v1 is much higher than in team-play Huttball, for example, or in Voidstar.

 

People barely even play their Sorc's anymore.

 

I have seen quite a lot of them in War Zones on VC recently.

 

The class is designed to attack when no one is looking, and to run the moment they're spotted. That's the dumbest way to design a class I've ever heard of.

 

I agree to that.

And your description fits very well to the Assassin/Shadow, by the way.

There, it would make sense.

Which makes me fear that the Sage / Sorceror could have been an "afterthought" of an first implemented Assassin-like class.

This way, the Sage / Sorc would be an "poor man's Assassin" : Strike, when no-one looks at you, and then run away.

Edited November 25, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Ashuranrx]

Warriors don't get a 4s stun like every other base class does, that is why they have more other stuff.

 

Warriors are more susceptible to CC than everyone else because they are always at the front of the battle. If the stuns are lowered from 4s to 2.5s, then I don't mind if we lose some interrupts.

[PloGreen]

Warriors don't get a 4s stun like every other base class does, that is why they have more other stuff.

 

Warriors are more susceptible to CC than everyone else because they are always at the front of the battle. If the stuns are lowered from 4s to 2.5s, then I don't mind if we lose some interrupts.

 

You get a nice aoe mezz though and sents have the best dcds in the game. They are more susceptible simply because they have to be cced over everyone else. Problem is sage lost their means of control and I'm still baffled as to why they nerfed sages like they have. It was unwarranted, and it shows.

[dougiepants]

I see these type of threads all over the boards yet I've played since beta as a sorc and find it part of the challenge of battling other classes. Yes they continue to interrupt and stun lock. But playing a sorc isn't about being a mobile healer like the Ops. The challenge of healing on POT5 as a Sorc is very challanging and yet in WZs I rarely see people beating my numbers. I just really feel like people are always wanting the game to be easier or like another class or just feel like complaining because they are not successful as others. First is was gear, then bolster, always class balance. Its just all the way down to if you know how to play your class against other classes. As a healing sorc you are a long range healer. You get in trouble and need to react. use the map and surrounding team mates. You can play dirty even. Your pull can be use defensively. Pull other team mate over to help you out with your attackers.

 

I just do not understand why all these sorcs qq when we dominate when left alone and we can heal, dps, and tank because other dps just love us so much lol.

[AlrikFassbauer]

when left alone

 

This is the point.

 

When actually are they "left alone" when most people hold the opinion that healers are usuually the very first thing to be taken out ?

 

In my opinion, it is sheer luck if a player doesn't watch how a Sorc / Sage fights - in the end, the class is so much more dpending on luck whether to be focused or not, whether to be seen fighting / healing or not, whether to be "left alone" or not.

 

A tank class isn't that much depending on luck, on the other hand, because of the better armor they can withstand much more damage.

[PloGreen]

I see these type of threads all over the boards yet I've played since beta as a sorc and find it part of the challenge of battling other classes. Yes they continue to interrupt and stun lock. But playing a sorc isn't about being a mobile healer like the Ops. The challenge of healing on POT5 as a Sorc is very challanging and yet in WZs I rarely see people beating my numbers. I just really feel like people are always wanting the game to be easier or like another class or just feel like complaining because they are not successful as others. First is was gear, then bolster, always class balance. Its just all the way down to if you know how to play your class against other classes. As a healing sorc you are a long range healer. You get in trouble and need to react. use the map and surrounding team mates. You can play dirty even. Your pull can be use defensively. Pull other team mate over to help you out with your attackers.

 

I just do not understand why all these sorcs qq when we dominate when left alone and we can heal, dps, and tank because other dps just love us so much lol.

 

So the answer to "sorc qq" in your opinion is that we are awesome if we are left to freecast. Interesting.

[dougiepants]

Our class is designed to do massive group healing, massive dot damage on groups and lightening is one of the best group finisher classes in the game. Madness puts out so much damage that everyone in the game hates us when used by the right players. Lightening finishes off any target with 50% or less health with no problem. It is not an opener class. It is a highly usable support spec with massive crit dps. Healing is something you just get or don't get. Either you have figured out how to tank and heal through it, kite everyone and always be on the move to heal your group or have group members helping you out with support. There is also a huge difference with people qq that just pug and decide to be apart of a premade. Pugging is completely limited to your skill and majority of luck of group members. Premade helps with everything in this game. I'm sorry for people that use grouping. There are guilds and people always looking for groups. Why would you pug and then ***** about getting focused. It's going to happen. It's just our class because we have so much amount of determining the out come of the game for a win or loss

[PloGreen]

Our class is designed to do massive group healing, massive dot damage on groups and lightening is one of the best group finisher classes in the game. Madness puts out so much damage that everyone in the game hates us when used by the right players. Lightening finishes off any target with 50% or less health with no problem. It is not an opener class. It is a highly usable support spec with massive crit dps. Healing is something you just get or don't get. Either you have figured out how to tank and heal through it, kite everyone and always be on the move to heal your group or have group members helping you out with support. There is also a huge difference with people qq that just pug and decide to be apart of a premade. Pugging is completely limited to your skill and majority of luck of group members. Premade helps with everything in this game. I'm sorry for people that use grouping. There are guilds and people always looking for groups. Why would you pug and then ***** about getting focused. It's going to happen. It's just our class because we have so much amount of determining the out come of the game for a win or loss

 

 

I dont think we are even on the same page, or even talking about the same thing. Regs, premades - what? Regs aren't a big deal, even in 8v8 sorc had enough room to breathe and hide amongst the throng, loss of instant force lift still hurt class when it came to kiting and dealing with multiple opponents though, I guess Bioware thought force barrier and instant lift was too much - It wasn't.

 

Arenas - no competent group of players will ever let you free cast. That is the whole point. Loss of instant force lift hurt sages, as did reduction on range of hard stun, its more noticable when you are getting trained by 3 melee in a 4v4, good luck kiting in that instance, you are entirely reliant on your team mates with peels and guard switching, but in all the time you are being trained - you aren't damaging anything. You may think this is all fine, because you are the only player who has played since beta on this class (your not), or the only player that truly understands the class - i honestly don't know if you really believe the class is in a great state or that you really are hot **** and everyone else is a face tanking scrub, but I find your whole tone extremely patronizing. I just don't think the class is in a great state, it needs work. I think many of the points made in this thread are warranted, I don't think it's all bad sorc/sages qqing, i think that is a really disingenuous point of view and it just makes Biowares "heal to full and make them pay" statement seem like its valid - It really isn't.

[dougiepants]

I'm not claiming to be the best by any means. But this thread's topic also didn't say anything about just RANKED either. I'm not saying our class is the best for ranked arenas. Our class is a aoe class. Sorta hard to dominate an arena as a sorc if everyone is spread out and you're not running a full madness spec or a hybrid madness/lightening for cc. But this is always going to be an issue. Bio ware has acknowledge that Ops healers are OP and will get nerfed in coming updates. They said that at the last pr cantina event at EA. But you can have perfect balance between all classes and specs when we are using the same talent trees and the pve guys. It seems more and more that people qq for balance and forget that when they change something for us pvp only players that it can drastically affect the pve player base and vise versa. This is why we have the op Ops now and the up coming changes to assassins. Sorcs have been nerfed so much since 1.0 I'm surprised we still even have a player base. 2.5 gives us a chance in madness to not only take down targets faster but finally have crushing darkness do damage just like that marauders. Just we are doing it from a distance. Will this completely make us viable in ranked... Not unless you know how to play the class to perfection like the top sorcs and sages in the game. We have the ability to do burst damage if you have a solid rotation down and are attacking targets in a focus manner. I just really love the sorc class and it really is one of the best classes in the game if with the right player group and you just focus on the role you are fulfilling in that group.

[AdmiralParmesan]

Our class is designed to do massive group healing, massive dot damage on groups and lightening is one of the best group finisher classes in the game. Madness puts out so much damage that everyone in the game hates us when used by the right players. Lightening finishes off any target with 50% or less health with no problem. It is not an opener class. It is a highly usable support spec with massive crit dps. Healing is something you just get or don't get. Either you have figured out how to tank and heal through it, kite everyone and always be on the move to heal your group or have group members helping you out with support. There is also a huge difference with people qq that just pug and decide to be apart of a premade. Pugging is completely limited to your skill and majority of luck of group members. Premade helps with everything in this game. I'm sorry for people that use grouping. There are guilds and people always looking for groups. Why would you pug and then ***** about getting focused. It's going to happen. It's just our class because we have so much amount of determining the out come of the game for a win or loss

 

Open your eyes kid, people are complaining about ARENAS for sorc, not warzones. Yes we can operate fine when we have enough teammates to cover all of our weaknesses and we have enough team mates to hide behind. Fact is almost any class/spec can do well in a reg WZ, but when it comes to arenas corruption sorcs are not in a good place and lightning sorcs are especially not in a good place. Madness has become very popular not becuase its a great spec but because it's the only spec that doesn't heavily rely on casting to function.

 

BTW not all PVP changes have to effect PVE. Adding procs or talent points that make certain casts uninteruptable for example would have no impact on pve yet could really fix our pvp problems. Adding root immunity baseline for force speed is another quality of life change that would be wonderful for pvp and would have no real effect on pve. It's just a generalized assumption by those without creativity that all pvp changes will harm pve.

Edited November 25, 2013 by AdmiralParmesan

[dougiepants]

Another point about being focused. If you are 1 v 4 melee then where are you other three players? As a sorc you can take all the damage and then bubble. Ten seconds of nothing. So while the melee is 1 v 4 you until you bubble then why are your other 3 players not focusing one of them? It's just confusing to me how sorcs know they are going to get focused. We are light armor and die fast. Yet we can survive with bubbles, sprints, stuns and knock backs. A sorc can hold off several guys long enough for your team to kill one of their players. Now it is 4 v 3 and you low on health. Put out what you can, kite and survive. The role of a sorc.

[dougiepants]

Open your eyes kid, people are complaining about ARENAS for sorc, not warzones. Yes we can operate fine when we have enough teammates to cover all of our weaknesses and we have enough team mates to hide behind. Fact is almost any class/spec can do well in a reg WZ, but when it comes to arenas corruption sorcs are not in a good place and lightning sorcs are especially not in a good place. Madness has become very popular not becuase its a great spec but because it's the only spec that doesn't heavily rely on casting to function.

 

BTW not all PVP changes have to effect PVE. Adding procs or talent points that make certain casts uninteruptable for example would have no impact on pve yet could really fix our pvp problems. Adding root immunity baseline for force speed is another quality of life change that would be wonderful for pvp and would have no real effect on pve. It's just a generalized assumption by those without creativity that all pvp changes will harm pve.

 

I like your ideas for class changes for pvp especially with force speed. I'm all for making the sorc beastly of days past. I am not blind. I am just looking for the positives instead of all the bs qq that happens on these forums. Besides you yourself are a top tier sorc. A solid 1464 rating. That's way higher than my 1190's as a healer. But there will have to be so big changes to be made to have sorcs become a bursty dps dealing machine that other classes are for ranked.

[AdmiralParmesan]

Another point about being focused. If you are 1 v 4 melee then where are you other three players? As a sorc you can take all the damage and then bubble. Ten seconds of nothing. So while the melee is 1 v 4 you until you bubble then why are your other 3 players not focusing one of them? It's just confusing to me how sorcs know they are going to get focused. We are light armor and die fast. Yet we can survive with bubbles, sprints, stuns and knock backs. A sorc can hold off several guys long enough for your team to kill one of their players. Now it is 4 v 3 and you low on health. Put out what you can, kite and survive. The role of a sorc.

 

That's the basis of the strategy of focusing a sorc, though you fail to realize it. You focus a sorc because in doing damage to a sorc you cause large amount of pushback and can interrupt them. This at it's base is a problem because focus fire forces sorcs/sages on the defensive and doesn't allow them to reach of of their healing or damage potential. By doing enough damage you can force the sorc/sage to bubble thus removing them from the game temporarily. Overload (the knockback) barely knocks enemies back 10 meters which means they are still in range to CC you regardless of which class you play. If you play as dps even roots will counter your force speed, which often happens you tend to be trained by warriors.

 

The class is basically designed to have kiting tools barely sufficient for a 1v1 scenario, so when you are focused by multiple people your ability to deal with the situation goes down dramatically.

Edited November 25, 2013 by AdmiralParmesan

[JackNader]

Hmmm

 

*Remove interrupt on force leap = Acceptable change.

*Remove the push back system on casts and channels = Acceptable change.

 

The things that I would like to see changed for the sorcerer / sage class.

 

*Bubble not respecting global cooldown but retain its 1.5 second recast timer.

*Unnatural preservation / force mend not respect the global cooldown

 

Madness / Balance

 

* The spec needs better force management. It is not capable of funding it's purely single target rotation. If you add in any tab dotting or random use of shock / project, you will bleed out your force like crazy.

 

I would actually correct this 2 ways.

 

First of all I would make wrath proc a free crushing darkness or lightning strike.

Secondly, I would change the mechanic of affliction / weaken mind to that of an AOE effect. Have it affect multiple targets who are close to the central target. Also, Affliction / weaken mind should not tick on sleeping targets. (Note that this is a BIG PvP DPS change. The ability would probably need its damage reduced and the difference given to another ability.)

 

I would also like to point out that I would make the assassin and shadows discharge effect also function as an AOE for the balance / madness tree. It would more or less become a corrosive grenade style ability.

 

* The last change I would make would be to shift the ability that cuts the channel of force lightning / telekinetic throw in half into the madness / balance tree. TK already has enough procs to watch out for.

 

Telekinetic / Lightning

 

The biggest problem with this tree is that everything is interpretable. It needs to have a better fallback rotation if the main proc line gets interrupted. I'd personally like to see Telekinetic throw / Force lightning's cooldown lowered or removed so that it can be cast if Disturbance or Lightning strike is interrupted. It wouldn't hurt to lower the activation time of crushing darkness for the spec as well.

 

The other thing they could do is make lightning strike / Disturbance an instant cast for this tree.

 

Healing Tree

 

* Innervate / Healing trance should be immune to interrupt. That's probably the only change I would make for the tree at this point without seeing what the real world effects of it would be. We don't need anymore overpowered healing classes running around.

Edited November 26, 2013 by JackNader

[Elfa]

They needs to just remove snare and holds from pvp altogether

[Daex]

The listed scenario rarely ever plays out as listed for multiple reasons.

 

This game is rarely 1v1.

Those abilities are rarely ALL off cooldown.

There is a broad assumption that the sorc just stands there and tries to cast, which is ridiculous to say the least.

 

 

The listed scenario did not assume it was a 1vs1 battle. It assumed it was the beginning of an Arena Match (4vs4) where your abilities would be off the cooldown, which makes the written scenario even better to execute.

The listed scenario never assumed Sorcerer did not use Force Speed, thus it said: "I will not OPEN with the leap, anyway!"

The Sorcerer needs to stand to cast, and assuming a Sorcerer can cast without standing still, is ridiculous to say the least.

 

Just want to make things clear. I also want to assure everybody, this was not an indirect "Nerf Juggernauts attempt". I think they are an okay class.

-----------------------------------------

 

Also, this is something every juggernaut can do, no matter the spec. Depending on a spec, it can only get easier than this. I am glad I could help to those who did not know. The skill is SWTOR PvP has just been risen over 9000.

 

And, yes, you do not have to kill to disable Sorcerer's team. I am sure it will take some time for certain players to realize this, just like it took them time to figure out they can interrupt the Sorcerer with one ability that isn't a stun.

[Capt_Beers]

They should add school lockout instead of specific spell lockout.

 

Does this mean if a heal is interrupted no heals can be cast for the duration?

[kaya]

Does this mean if a heal is interrupted no heals can be cast for the duration?

 

Pretty much yeah.

They'd have to remove a million interrupts for that to ever work though.