The morality of Killik joining

[Lyrinannum]

First, I do apologize if this is the wrong place to post this, but it seemed to be the closest thing I could find to what I'm trying to find out and discuss.

 

So, Killiks. Gotta love those multi-limbed hivemind bug aliens. Or, not? I've played through Alderaan on a few classes already (those being sith inquisitor and jedi knight, and my imperial agent is about to go there when I finish up on Tatooine) but other than a few random quests, I'm kind of dissatisfied with what we're given in terms of Killiks and Joiners.

 

I know the basics, what with Killiks bringing people into the hive through pharamones and changing their brain structure- but it also seems to be that it is these pharamones directly responsible for physically changing these people, and thus is it really 'free will' if after they are exposed and slowly mended into the hive that they really choose to stay? Or is it, say, the perfect example of brainwashing?

 

I can't imagine that any individual person, having lived their life as an individual with secrets and conflicts and all the dynamics of life, would willingly submit to this?

 

I know that Vector is not really this case, not really having met him in game but having information from the in-game codex and the usual amount of spoilers you get searching though artwork. It's something else entirely when you know and understand and embrace what exactly the Killiks are, and then you become Joined, wouldn't you say?

 

I also haven't read the books in the EU covering Killiks, but I've been filled in by friends and if anyone has read them I would love some insight that maybe they provide that the game and the internet does not.

 

Of course this is all flavoured by the fact that I am a human that lives in a society and government that values individualism and has a governing body that has it so the will and opinion of the people sway what happens. So it could also just be the fact that I personally find the idea of becoming one with a hive mind so detestable. It could just be that as humans with individual minds, where the way we've grown as a species has been on a basis of war, co-operation and existing with our fellow man we can't help but feel that loosing that is basically evil?

 

I'm just of the opinion that Killiks taking joiners who don't 100% volunteer before being affected by pheramones is basically kidnapping and....Would it be to extreme to say, almost like killing them? As far as I know, other than examples in the book (which, again, I would love to be filled in by anyone with that knowledge) it's actually impossible to resist or revert back to normal after someone has been either heavily influenced or fully integrated into the hive.

 

We can argue that it's purely cultural misunderstanding, but then is it too much to ask that an alien race who has always and forever (purely as an example) used children or women or certain kinds of beings currency- that it is then okay for them to go and treat members of other species this way?

[AlexDougherty]

It's kidnapping and brainwashing, they turn normal people into brainwashed addicts (guessing those pheromones are narcotic from a couple of lines in Agent story) who are willing to give their lives for the continuation of the alien (to them) hive.

 

Also remember their are no infant joiners, so they don't reproduce, and I'm guessing infants are killed rather than joined.

 

On the other hand, the Killiks are doing everything they can to survive a hostile invading species, remember Alderaan is their homeworld, and that both sides gas them. In that sense they are perfectly entitled to use whatever means necessary. There are also clues that they were once a true civilisation, Killik Ruins, legends of Killik Cities and artifacts, so the Humans have basically dragged them down to this level.

[Lyrinannum]

Oh god, considering the part of a narcotic within the pheramones makes it....kind of worse :< it stands to reason then that even though Killiks might NOT be intentionally kidnapping and exposing 'aliens' (i.e. togruts or twi'lek or humans) that they are still unintentionally spreading the narcotic, which would....Which would draw these aliens to the Killiks, wouldn't they? To get the fix? And a drug within those pharamones, which do literally alter your brain so that you can receive and transmit and share the minor telepathy of the Killik hive mind (and I think, produce pheramones? I am not completely sure, i just know that Killiks communicate through them as well, not sure if Joiners end up affected that much).

 

Don't you fight lots and lots of 'killik larvae' on Alderaan though? The tiny little worm-like things, with the lamprey-like mouths and bulbous eyes?

 

I can't help but feel it might be a cultural fault of, since you could easily go both ways with this, either some external source making the Killiks aware of exactly what they are doing or the Killiks at least being forward enough about this affect to save the people who would never want to be part of it, since the lack of information and understanding could easily lead more than one person to loose themselves to the Killik hive mind.

 

But then again, can it be said that Killiks have enough understanding of their affect and how much an individual would object to even know to inform or otherwise ensure that it is prevented? It does not seem to me like they would ever, ever, ever balk at the chance for one more joiner, no matter the cause.

[Irongut]

You will eventually learn a lot more about the Killiks from talking to Vector. They are not the brutal. violent beasts everyone on Alderaan makes them out to be. Even the oh so goody goody Republic are commiting genocide of an intelligent, sentient native species on Alderaan. Edited November 4, 2013 by Irongut

[Lyrinannum]

Would it be acceptable to get some spoilers concerning that? Apparently you get a LOT more information if you're a female IA and you romance him, but my IA is male :<

[Skolle]

To answer this question, you have to ask yourself: what is morality?

 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/moral?q=moral

According to the link above, moral is based on a "code of behaviour that is considered right or acceptable in a particular society. Essentially, the reason mankind was forced to develop the concept of morality was to establish a code of behaviour that permits community to exist. It allows us to subvert our individual wants and desires enough that we do what's best for the community (in a perfect world where everyone abides by the 'moral' code). You were onto this when you discussed the importance that our own society places on individuality - and the Star Wars movies were very aware of the above, in that they discussed how important one's own point of view was to accepting the 'truths' to which the Jedi adhere.

 

So, from the point of view of the Killiks, kidnapping and assimilating the invaders to help perpetuate the colony is absolutely moral. It would be immoral to permit them to work against the hive.

 

From the point of view of the joiner, aside from any chemical inducement, it's merely an acceptance of a different worldview, like joining a cult or accepting a change to your system of government (think Germany in the 1930s or Russia in 1917). You're accepting that what is 'moral' in your new situation is different from what was 'moral' in your previous culture/worldview. When you think about the cult example from above, you'd be shocked at how much control/individuality/human rights people can be convinced to surrender, and the complete realignment of 'morality' that often exists in a cultic milieu (often by way of mental/physical/emotial abuse and a complete lack of privacy), entering a truly hive mind would take that another step further.

[Lyrinannum]

That's exactly what I think makes Killiks so conflicting and interesting to try and understand- it can also almost completely depend on one persons' attitude and understanding of the concept of a hive mind and further understanding of the Killiks themselves.

 

It's true that from one 'phase' of perpective to another, the (for the sake of arguing, sticking with human since....we are human) person prior to being introduced to Killiks would have a morality and social code dependent on a society where the entire population is made of individuals who work on a system of co-operation between each individual. Your example of Germany or Russia is really good, since we can easily argue that the Holocaust was, to put an easy word on it, evil. But for someone living in Germany, under the government and rule of Hitler, that was the way you lived.

 

There's no real for sure way, I think, of putting down the blame of 'this is wrong' since it's so hard to completely understand since we're purely individual beings.

 

The chemical change, I think, is another factor that makes it so conflicting. It does actually physically change someone, altering their brain and everything.

 

Another point would be: can recruiting Joiners be said to be similar for the Killiks as conscription was when it was mandatory in times of war? The difference being, a conscripted soldier can still be disloyal and a traitor and insubordinate, but a Joiner would be completely assimilated into the hive. Depending on the necessity of the Killiks, creating Joiners by force would be nothing less than conscription? Even then, they've done nothing but ensure their survival, share the hive mind with them, and also created one more loyal citizen of their hive that can contribute to the hive with the absolute certainty that they will never be, say, disloyal or traitorous or insubordinate.

 

You can argue one way or the other for ages- but if you, you as a human who (one would think) would rather have your individuality, if you were aware and sure of the consequences of the Killiks and what their simple presence could do in the long run for the unknowing, would you argue against them?