Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

[Kryul]

Must be an issue if this thread has 36 pages, need more hitting power BW. Tried other toons but Guardian Vig is so much fun but hey I am just a sucker for pain in my vain search to keep up with other classes. Explains my life long obsession with Everton FC, they never will make it to the top but I hold onto hope Edited November 19, 2013 by Kryul

[Keleus]

No worries on the English. When it's not an act like Jonny it's entirely understandable.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with being like sents. Personally I think they got it a little backward in the survivability category between Sents and Guards. The only problem I have is when we start to operate mechanically like a Sent. For instance leaping with no range, healing our group, slash resetting Master Strike, inspiration style buff, etc.

 

I still think Slash is nearly useless and I wonder immensely how people who are in Shien Form manage to use it, because I have never touched it in Vigil Spec and I easily pull 2.5-2.8k DPS in Operations.

 

Also, healing of the group doesn't seem to so bad, in fact ANYTHING that involves helping our group sticks out as proper for the Guardian class since that's technically what we are Flavor Wise. We're the leaders, the inspirational guides, and the guys who charge in head first to lead the way and show our comrades how it's done. That said, raid-wide utility buffs sounds great to me.

[Riivan]

I still think Slash is nearly useless and I wonder immensely how people who are in Shien Form manage to use it, because I have never touched it in Vigil Spec and I easily pull 2.5-2.8k DPS in Operations.

 

Also, healing of the group doesn't seem to so bad, in fact ANYTHING that involves helping our group sticks out as proper for the Guardian class since that's technically what we are Flavor Wise. We're the leaders, the inspirational guides, and the guys who charge in head first to lead the way and show our comrades how it's done. That said, raid-wide utility buffs sounds great to me.

 

Yeah. I mean there are a few fights when Narrowed Focus gets you some extra resources to hit a few slashes but it's largely worthless.

 

I can see the healing point and wouldn't mind it so long as it isn't in addition to the other changes like slash reset and no limit leap. Raid wide buffs are great, just needs to be the right one. Sents have the dmg boost so we should have something a little different.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

No worries on the English. When it's not an act like Jonny it's entirely understandable.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with being like sents. Personally I think they got it a little backward in the survivability category between Sents and Guards. The only problem I have is when we start to operate mechanically like a Sent. For instance leaping with no range, healing our group, slash resetting Master Strike, inspiration style buff, etc.

 

lol

 

I agree, its definitely backwards, we should be much more durable than sents. I've never played a sent/mara but I really like the Guardian/Jugg class, and I want us to stay as individualized as possible. However, a lot of what sents have are more Guardian skills imo. Guardians should be the ones buffing and supporting the group, while sents should be the ones jumping in and just smashing stuff. I'd say that the devs favor/play sents and maras and thats why they get everything utility-wise, but from what I've read the devs mostly play Guardians/Juggs. Regardless, sents have too many abilities that should belong to the Guardians.

[Keleus]

This is from my phone so it'll be a bit choppy.

 

Possible utility buffs: raid wide increase to healing, aoe that increases elemental damage, alacrity buff raid wide, increased defenses/shielding.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

increased defenses/shielding.

 

This is what I have been suggesting. It makes a lot of sense considering our class.

[JonnyMadDog]

Ey agree n have all along w/ what the above postr said about how some Sentl abilities should be Grdian abilities, and it'd weird for them to have more utility/survivability then Grdians, as R SPEC should have the survivabilityness to it. Regarding the suggested implementations above, an op-wide energy/focus replensish, like combat foc, only for the grp, ey feel would b a cool idea, should inspir not be given to r spec from sentls or share it w/ em. Also, regarding the healing/defenses of the grp, give r spec an offensive grd, either make grd usable in all 3 forms each w/ diff effects or add in a new grd ability usable in an offensive form entirely. Rly feel these 2 additions plus a straight up increase to dmg to all abilities, esp plasm brnd and maybe an additional debuff by brnd as well, would b enuff to satiate peopl of r spec and balance it out a bit more. 2-3 utilities added/improved and dmg across improved.

[Keleus]

Ey agree n have all along w/ what the above postr said about how some Sentl abilities should be Grdian abilities, and it'd weird for them to have more utility/survivability then Grdians, as R SPEC should have the survivabilityness to it. Regarding the suggested implementations above, an op-wide energy/focus replensish, like combat foc, only for the grp, ey feel would b a cool idea, should inspir not be given to r spec from sentls or share it w/ em. Also, regarding the healing/defenses of the grp, give r spec an offensive grd, either make grd usable in all 3 forms each w/ diff effects or add in a new grd ability usable in an offensive form entirely. Rly feel these 2 additions plus a straight up increase to dmg to all abilities, esp plasm brnd and maybe an additional debuff by brnd as well, would b enuff to satiate peopl of r spec and balance it out a bit more. 2-3 utilities added/improved and dmg across improved.

 

See, this is the crap we're talking about. You refuse to type straight or at least even try and thus your posts look like a ten year old on crack and mental disabilities, yet you actually have a really good idea popped in there; A raid wide Resource Restoration Skill. Nobody has mentioned that until now and it f-ing kills me that we can't understand you because you type like a ******* on purpose. Also glad to see someone agrees on the Guard/Riposte doing stuff depending on what form you're in.

[volander]

I do not know if anyone suggested anything like that, but I figured out how to elegantly solve bad RNG problem.

 

Preparation / Seething Hatred - completely replace on Еnlightenment / Raving

While in battle each next Master Strike / Ravage grants Еnlightenment (Raving) increases the chance of Zen Strike / Rampage proc by [2.5%, 5%] and next Sundering Strike (Sundering Assault), Saber Throw armor debuff by [2.5%, 5%]. Stacks up to 5 times. Exiting battle resets effect and reduced active cooldowns of Force Leap (Force Charge), Combat Focus (Enrage), and Saber Throw by [50 / 100]%.

 

did not seem like Sent or not:rak_02:

[Riivan]

Interesting, but Preperation isn't a skill PvErs really take. You'd have to find a way to work it into the tree so we'd actually use it. It's an interesting idea though having our other abilities increase the chance rather than adding new abilities to the proc list.

[Keleus]

Interesting, but Preperation isn't a skill PvErs really take. You'd have to find a way to work it into the tree so we'd actually use it. It's an interesting idea though having our other abilities increase the chance rather than adding new abilities to the proc list.

 

I think what he meant was replacing it with those skills, and frankly with what those are proposed to do, it would set us apart from other Armor Debuffing Classes while granting us a rather nice boon to our proc chances and overall DPS and utility.

 

I like it.

[admpellaeon]

I think an interesting idea of how to include a ops wide utility is to have it happen while the guardian is channeling masterstrike. Something like 5% increased group wide armor penetration for the 3 sec. Just an idea. I haven't played enough other games to know what is too op, realalistic, or even helpful.

[Riivan]

I think what he meant was replacing it with those skills, and frankly with what those are proposed to do, it would set us apart from other Armor Debuffing Classes while granting us a rather nice boon to our proc chances and overall DPS and utility.

 

I like it.

 

I understand that I am just saying we don't have the points to spend on it. Prep is so high up in the tree that swapping it with that skill I am still probably not going to take it. You'd have to swap places with something else that we don't take. Maybe the reduced cd on throw though I really like the way the class flows with that reduced cd.

 

The armor pen idea is a good thought. You'd have to make it an inspiration style buff though. 3 seconds isn't much time to get something off.

[Hornakkan]

I think an interesting idea of how to include a ops wide utility is to have it happen while the guardian is channeling masterstrike. Something like 5% increased group wide armor penetration for the 3 sec. Just an idea. I haven't played enough other games to know what is too op, realalistic, or even helpful.

 

I think it's not enough to compete for a slot in Raid groups when it comes to choose between us and Sents.

 

The Raid Buff needs to be stronger than this, maybe something like a : x% Force/Energy/Cells/Focus refund and (5% to Dmg/Heal or 5% to armor pen / Defense/Evade/Shield) applied to whole raid.

[Riivan]

I think it's not enough to compete for a slot in Raid groups when it comes to choose between us and Sents.

 

The Raid Buff needs to be stronger than this, maybe something like a : x% Force/Energy/Cells/Focus refund and (5% to Dmg/Heal or 5% to armor pen / Defense/Evade/Shield) applied to whole raid.

 

Keep in mind the Inspiration change. We don't need a super powerful utility to be worthwhile and paring armor pen with inspiration would be a nice one-two. That's not to say that I am sold on Armor Pen, not sure it is what we need, but food for thought.

[volander]

I understand that I am just saying we don't have the points to spend on it.

 

I did not immediately respond to the first message because I was not sure if I understood correctly.

Yes on all points is not enough, but it's basically normal. If you look at our competitor Vanguard or Sentinel, it is seen that after taking top tier abilities is enough points that you can spend to improve their branch. Whereas Vengeanse (at least in PvE) spends a lot of points on anadromous ability. Choice is good, the lack of choice, bad.

Secondly, I did not want to complicate greatly mechanics. For melee important that all I was very clear as much time is spent on assessing the situation and twisting the camera. I need to know that the skill necessary for me at the right moment of time is always ready to use. You can certainly increase the chance to proc off of our DOTs. For example, "every time there is burning inflicts XX chance that it will increase the chance to proc on MS YY percent." But I do not like the idea of ​​folding probabilities and play continuously observing skill bar. I like the idea of ​​a martial trance rewarding for attending the goal, the more you stay on target become the stronger your attacks. And I think it fits well in Shien form, as opposed to Combat Infiltration branches, hoping for a quick bursting damage in a short period of time.

To my proposal I would like to add some strengthening protection for example by 1% per stack Enlightenment / Raving.

 

I think it's not enough to compete for a slot in Raid groups when it comes to choose between us and Sents.

 

The Raid Buff needs to be stronger than this, maybe something like a : x% Force/Energy/Cells/Focus refund and (5% to Dmg/Heal or 5% to armor pen / Defense/Evade/Shield) applied to whole raid.

 

I suggested something similar. Instant Recover 50% of resources and increased by 100% regeneration for 6 seconds. You can add to this immune to movement impairing effects for 6 seconds. But we seem to have agreed that there should be Veng not like Sentinel. I like the idea of ​​offensive Guard. I would have done is simple and clear "Damage / Healing and Damage Reduction of your ward increase by 2%"

 

And again about the lack of points. We have two abilities that can be easily unite in this one - Burning Blade/Draining Scream and Burning Purpose/Eviscerate. We are forcing them to take to raise the damage, but the amount of points spent on them totally incomparable with the impact which they bring. Merging these abilities will release two points in a branch that can be embedded in our proposals.

[Creslan]

Passive armor pen is a static dps buff that would be rather painless for them to implement and not affect us rotationally. It is a good short term easy fix for us and the devs, the numbers would be relatively easy to calculate on their part. How much armor pen would depend on the metrics, but a 15-20% would work wonders for us.

 

Our tree is definitely different from tactics and infiltration or most other middle trees in the fact that the supplemental damage is applied through low yield dots that require them to be applied on every cooldown. So we have a mix of dots, force attacks and master strike that are jumbled together that yields our over all damage. Most middle trees focus on 1-2 abilities and the tree supplements those attacks accordingly. Tactics on pulse cannon and their elemental attacks (hence they don't need armor pen), combat and ataru form, commando and full auto and so on.

 

Really they could combine Stagger, Defiance and Gather strength into 1 talent to open up some points for us, maybe rework narrowed focus to provide some other buff (aoe dmg reduction or something), but these are points that won't get looked at til at least 3.0 and won't have any bearing on us for NIM DF/DP content, we need something else til then to hold us over. As has been stated over and over, the easiest fix would come in the form of a 15% increase to zen strike and some form of active armor pen for MS or passive armor pen at a lower percent, perhaps a crit multiplier on dispatch, blade storm, MS or some other ability.

 

I think the offensive guard is the way to go for raid utility, Let the sents keep the raid wide utility and let ours focus on 1 other, it would be a boon to us and them that way, and would yield us some more damage and better opportunity at a raid slot in progression NiM raids, as well as, 2 less guards for the tanks to worry about threat wise.

[Riivan]

I just don't like the idea of going the WoW route where we neuter tanking. For the most part it's kind of a moot point, but I like having to battle for threat. It keeps things interesting. If we did offensive guard I'd get rid of threat and dmg reduction entirely. I could see a case for dmg reduction, but yeah. If it is going to be an offensive guard let's make it just that.

[Creslan]

Yeah, if they take the focus cost off Focused Defense, then lose the threat reduction and damage reduction on the offensive guard, a pure 5% damage increase for both players, keep it offensive only. My original idea had no damage reduction, just a 5% damage increase for both players and a minor threat reduction, less than what we get currently when we hit Focused Defense, in theory. I would be all for scrapping the threat reduction all together.

 

Focused Defense Changes I want to see:

==Lose the 4 focus cost

==Lose the heal component

==Increase to High Threat reduction

==keep the useable while stunned component

 

Losing the heal will be a step in the right direction, I think the whole reason a cost is associated with this skill to begin with is the heal. I'm sure Through Peace in the focus tree could be changed to reflect some sort of damage reduction similar to vigilance.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Creslan

[Riivan]

I like the heal component and I think it is in line with say the Sent one, but maybe do a similar mechanic. The heal component only applies so long as we don't attack. That way if we need a little boost to healing we sit for a spell. If not we enjoy the threat drop and reduced dmg while going nuts on the boss.

[Hornakkan]

Really they could combine Stagger, Defiance and Gather strength into 1 talent to open up some points for us, maybe rework narrowed focus to provide some other buff (aoe dmg reduction or something.

 

Keep in mind we're DPS not Tanks or Off Tanks : if they merge this it should be for something buffing our DPS not the survivability.

 

Maybe a passive kick to our Elemental dmg or a Talent including other skills to proc Zen Strike (ticks of Burning Blade and Burning Purpose, Saber Throw, Strike if its dmg are buffed), even a buff to Strike's dmg would be nice and could allow it to be used in our rotation without gimping our DPS

[Riivan]

Keep in mind we're DPS not Tanks or Off Tanks : if they merge this it should be for something buffing our DPS not the survivability.

 

Maybe a passive kick to our Elemental dmg or a Talent including other skills to proc Zen Strike (ticks of Burning Blade and Burning Purpose, Saber Throw, Strike if its dmg are buffed), even a buff to Strike's dmg would be nice and could allow it to be used in our rotation without gimping our DPS

 

One of the larger barriers to Guards being brought is the fact that compared to a sent we take far more damage. Survivability is as large of an issue as DPS for Guards.

[Alec_Fortescue]

One of the larger barriers to Guards being brought is the fact that compared to a sent we take far more damage. Survivability is as large of an issue as DPS for Guards.

 

I used to be on my own saying this and everyone laughed at me. Now a number of players repeat that :l

[Riivan]

I used to be on my own saying this and everyone laughed at me. Now a number of players repeat that :l

 

Yup. I actually re-rolled a sent for that very reason. It does more dps sure, but the damage mitigation is what sets it apart.

[Creslan]

Honestly, the only defense stuff I want to see added to the vigilance tree would be a 30% reduction to aoe damage, we don't really need anything else defensive wise. That would take care of the damage taken part and we can focus on the damage done part for the rest of the tree.