The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 15: Satele Shan vs. Count Dooku

[Beniboybling]

Is Satele getting outside help?

 

If not - I'll take Dooku as the winner of this contest.

By my count Dooku is losing.

 

You might wan't to elaborate.

 

P.S. Yes, that pun was intended.

[Wolfninjajedi]

By my count Dooku is losing.

 

You might wan't to elaborate.

 

P.S. Yes, that pun was intended.

 

I think what he means is, in most of the fights she has been in she has had her *** saved from death or just stalemated her opponents(Baras). Hence why the saying "does she have outside help?"

Edited October 12, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

On the topic of Satele being helped, let me ask a question.

 

What would have happened if Jace didn't intervene in the Alderaan duel?

Edited October 12, 2013 by Aurbere

[LadyKulvax]

On the topic of Satele being helped, let me ask a question.

 

What would have happened if Jace didn't intervene in the Alderaan duel?

 

I still believe Satele would have won, she could simply channel one force push out of one hand, and then do exactly the same as she does to finish him off.

[Aurbere]

I still believe Satele would have won, she could simply channel one force push out of one hand, and then do exactly the same as she does to finish him off.

 

That's what I was thinking as well. Still, doesn't hurt to ask. I do remember quite a few differing opinions back in the day.

[Beniboybling]

On the topic of Satele being helped, let me ask a question.

 

What would have happened if Jace didn't intervene in the Alderaan duel?

Pretty sure its written somewhere that she was close to being overwhelmed - Satele's own journal I believe.

 

Malgus was just too strong for her.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Pretty sure its written somewhere that she was close to being overwhelmed - Journal of Gnost Dural I believe.

 

Malgus was just too strong for her.

 

I remember that being a point of contention way back when Satele was considered a mary sue because of that. One side said she couldn't hold on, the other said that she could.

 

I'm thinking she could do like Starkiller did in one of the TFU II trailers.

[Beniboybling]

I remember that being a point of contention way back when Satele was considered a mary sue because of that. One side said she couldn't hold on, the other said that she could.

 

I'm thinking she could do like Starkiller did in one of the TFU II trailers.

Well according to her own journal, she was going to die.

 

And given that Malgus > Satele IMO I agree with this fact.

[Aurbere]

Well according to her own journal, she was going to die.

 

And given that Malgus > Satele IMO I agree with this fact.

 

Hmm... interesting. I've never read her journal (doesn't it come with the Collector's Edition?), so I have some questions as to why she thinks that.

[Beniboybling]

Hmm... interesting. I've never read her journal (doesn't it come with the Collector's Edition?), so I have some questions as to why she thinks that.

Neither have I, but I've found several who do claiming this is the case. I see no reason not to believe them.

 

Anyway it was kinda obvious, Malgus had her on the ground with a lightsaber inches from her face. So much so she needed both hands to hold it off, if she tried a Force push she probably would have been impaled.

 

I expect it was sapping at her strength also.

[Aurbere]

Neither have I, but I've found several who do claiming this is the case. I see no reason not to believe them.

 

Anyway it was kinda obvious, Malgus had her on the ground with a lightsaber inches from her face. So much so she needed both hands to hold it off, if she tried a Force push she probably would have been impaled.

 

I expect it was sapping at her strength also.

 

Interesting.

[fellblade]

Neither have I, but I've found several who do claiming this is the case. I see no reason not to believe them.

 

Anyway it was kinda obvious, Malgus had her on the ground with a lightsaber inches from her face. So much so she needed both hands to hold it off, if she tried a Force push she probably would have been impaled.

 

I expect it was sapping at her strength also.

 

It was in the journal that comes with the collectors edition I have it.

Satele does state that without Jace's help, Malgus would have beaten her....

 

In these debates a lot has to be speculation and opinion (as most of these are theoretical fights that never happened) - Then in a case like this, where we have something that is officially stated in an actual canon source pertaining to that very contest and people still want to say she would have won....she wouldn't have - I personally think that should be considered a fact now.

 

As for Dooku - well You people are the ones who talk of the PT era being the Golden age and Dooku was one of the very best duellists of that era, THE Master of Makashi (perhaps greatest of all time) and held as a standard of technical excellence to the Jedi of this time (even after his departure).

I personally think that he Significantly outclasses her when it come to Lightsaber duelling and is strong enough in the force to resist and keep this mainly a lightsaber contest where he will win by perhaps weakening her with the kind of subtle limb strikes that he did to Kenobi in AOTC or maybe even a fatal strike in an exchange -I believe Dooku to be skilled enough to not need to have to cut her Saber in half to beat her.

He is probably also more likely (due to his superior bladework and the nature of Makashi) to be able to force openings in the flow of melee to where he has opportunities to use the force.....

 

I just don't think like some others do, that she is powerful enough in the force to just stand there and blast a fully prepared Dooku away - especially as not even Yoda attempted to do that - A contest of sabers it would be and a contest Dooku would win.

Edited October 12, 2013 by fellblade

[sell-dog]

I'm thinking the debate should return to the Satele that we are supposed to be considering for this fight. That is, the Satele in Fatal Alliance (3643 BBY) and not the one in the Battle of Alderaan (3667 BBY). This more important for Jedi than Sith as has been previously mentioned in discussions that Light Side Users do not have the steepness in learning curves that Dark Side Users have.

 

I know Satele EU material better than Dooku EU material. While Satele's dismantling of the hex droids with ease seems to be underrated thus far, I can't ignore the fact that Dooku can keep with Yoda in saber battles. Does he have to distract Yoda a couple times to escape? Yes, but lasting in battle to Yoda is something maybe only two other people in the galaxy at the time can do (Sidious & maybe Mace).

 

From what I remember from Fatal Alliance, Satele was able to dismantle hex droids more easily than Darth Chratis but Chratis was also weaving his way through hex droids taking out multiple at once with Lightning. Chratis was not on the Dark Council and, for the sake of this discussion, I wish he would've been a Dark Council member so we can better access the awesomeness of Satele's feats in this novel.

 

I'm starting to have a slight leaning towards Dooku. But I think if it becomes more Force-orientated, Satele will win. If Dooku starts off by testing her Force abilities as with Yoda in Eps II, Dooku will be in for a shock because I think Satele will overwhelm him before anything else gets started. Note in Eps II Yoda just plays defense as I think he desires to redeem his old Padawan. If Yoda is as emotionally detached as he advices others to be, Yoda would overwhelm Dooku in a Force battle and save the galaxy from less torn worlds and countless lives and then the onset of the Empire. Oh well . . .

 

Edit: Two thoughts:

1. I hope I don't derail the thread

2. I always like fellblade in discussions as I have always found his signature entertaining

Edited October 12, 2013 by sell-dog

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'm thinking the whole Force thing with Yoda was really just a one time deal, I don't think he would do it to some Jedi he has no real connection with. I think that was more to show Yoda, in how powerful he had become....so Dooku testing Satele I don't see it happening.

[sell-dog]

I'm thinking the whole Force thing with Yoda was really just a one time deal, I don't think he would do it to some Jedi he has no real connection with. I think that was more to show Yoda, in how powerful he had become....so Dooku testing Satele I don't see it happening.

 

Same for me and is the main reason why my slight leaning is Dooku at this point. Dooku will incorporate Force showings during duels though and I'm also saying he needs to be careful when they're placed/used

[fellblade]

I'm thinking the debate should return to the Satele that we are supposed to be considering for this fight. That is, the Satele in Fatal Alliance (3643 BBY) and not the one in the Battle of Alderaan (3667 BBY). This more important for Jedi than Sith as has been previously mentioned in discussions that Light Side Users do not have the steepness in learning curves that Dark Side Users have.

 

I know Satele EU material better than Dooku EU material. While Satele's dismantling of the hex droids with ease seems to be underrated thus far, I can't ignore the fact that Dooku can keep with Yoda in saber battles. Does he have to distract Yoda a couple times to escape? Yes, but lasting in battle to Yoda is something maybe only two other people in the galaxy at the time can do (Sidious & maybe Mace).

 

From what I remember from Fatal Alliance, Satele was able to dismantle hex droids more easily than Darth Chratis but Chratis was also weaving his way through hex droids taking out multiple at once with Lightning. Chratis was not on the Dark Council and, for the sake of this discussion, I wish he would've been a Dark Council member so we can better access the awesomeness of Satele's feats in this novel.

 

I'm starting to have a slight leaning towards Dooku. But I think if it becomes more Force-orientated, Satele will win. If Dooku starts off by testing her Force abilities as with Yoda in Eps II, Dooku will be in for a shock because I think Satele will overwhelm him before anything else gets started. Note in Eps II Yoda just plays defense as I think he desires to redeem his old Padawan. If Yoda is as emotionally detached as he advices others to be, Yoda would overwhelm Dooku in a Force battle and save the galaxy from less torn worlds and countless lives and then the onset of the Empire. Oh well . . .

 

Edit: Two thoughts:

1. I hope I don't derail the thread

2. I always like fellblade in discussions as I have always found his signature entertaining

 

lol thank you - but I can't take credit for that signature - if you notice it was originally posted by someone called Barringer during a Tulak hord debate - I just found it funny, so I took it as my signature.

 

As for Dooku - you may be underestimating him a bit here -

I don't think Yoda would want to necessarily kill him but I don't think Yoda would 'delay' with him in that situation especially seeing as Anakin and Obi Wan were injured and needed help.

He would want to get Dooku out of the way as quickly as possible (even if using the force to subdue him) because as far as he knew, Dooku could have been THE (rule of 2) Sith Master and by taking him out - perhaps the impending war could have been avoided or at least heavily setback by eliminating Dooku as a factor - but Dooku seemed to be too powerful to taken out easily and required that Yoda engage him in a lightsaber contest to eventually wear him down. Yoda even said - 'powerful you have become Dooku' so perhaps he could sense this.

[Beniboybling]

lol thank you - but I can't take credit for that signature - if you notice it was originally posted by someone called Barringer during a Tulak hord debate - I just found it funny, so I took it as my signature.

 

As for Dooku - you may be underestimating him a bit here -

I don't think Yoda would want to necessarily kill him but I don't think Yoda would 'delay' with him in that situation especially seeing as Anakin and Obi Wan were injured and needed help.

He would want to get Dooku out of the way as quickly as possible (even if using the force to subdue him) because as far as he knew, Dooku could have been THE (rule of 2) Sith Master and by taking him out - perhaps the impending war could have been avoided or at least heavily setback by eliminating Dooku as a factor - but Dooku seemed to be too powerful to taken out easily and required that Yoda engage him in a lightsaber contest to eventually wear him down. Yoda even said - 'powerful you have become Dooku' so perhaps he could sense this.

I disagree, Yoda may be powerful but he's simply not geared towards all out Force duels.

 

Why? Because he's so slow. Just look at all showings of Yoda using the Force, its always slow and laborious, he can't spam Force waves and pushes without a moment to collect himself and gather his energies together. So if he tried to attack Dooku with the Force Dooku would just be too fast from him and engage him in lightsaber combat.

 

Its also not Yoda's style, he is a warrior, not a sorcerer. Jedi taught to use the Force in restraint, and always used the lightsaber first. Conjuring telekinetic storms and the like was Sith practice who abused their power.

 

Also Yoda says "powerful you have become Dooku, but much to learn you still have." Yoda wasn't in any doubt that he was a considerably superior Force user - he dispelled all of Dooku's attacks with relative ease.

 

If disarmed however, Satele will have no other choice.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

As for Dooku - well You people are the ones who talk of the PT era being the Golden age and Dooku was one of the very best duellists of that era, THE Master of Makashi (perhaps greatest of all time) and held as a standard of technical excellence to the Jedi of this time (even after his departure).

I personally think that he Significantly outclasses her when it come to Lightsaber duelling and is strong enough in the force to resist and keep this mainly a lightsaber contest where he will win by perhaps weakening her with the kind of subtle limb strikes that he did to Kenobi in AOTC or maybe even a fatal strike in an exchange -I believe Dooku to be skilled enough to not need to have to cut her Saber in half to beat her.

He is probably also more likely (due to his superior bladework and the nature of Makashi) to be able to force openings in the flow of melee to where he has opportunities to use the force.....

 

I just don't think like some others do, that she is powerful enough in the force to just stand there and blast a fully prepared Dooku away - especially as not even Yoda attempted to do that - A contest of sabers it would be and a contest Dooku would win.

I highly doubt any of Dooku's attacks on anything else but her lightsaber will work - because a saberstaff affords you an excellent defense which in the right hands can become nigh impenetrable. And Satele one would assume has achieved a level of mastery over lightsaber combat.

 

Essentially she can quite easily bat away Dooku's attacks by twirling her saber, and her arms are completely protected by the blades - any attempt to attack her arms with result in a collision with her lightsaber. The most obvious means of defeating his opponent would be through Makashi's trademark sun djem attack - i.e. cutting the saber in half. There is no reason to suggest that Dooku would not exploit that obvious weakness - rather than waste time attempting to cut at her legs and arms - which would be a useless gesture.

 

Now while Dooku would still win a saber duel, Satele's Force abilities will ensure the fight doesn't end there.

[fellblade]

I disagree, Yoda may be powerful but he's simply not geared towards all out Force duels.

 

Why? Because he's so slow? Just look at all showings of Yoda using the Force, its always slow and laborious, he can't spam Force waves and pushes without a moment to collect himself and gather his energies together. So if he tried to attack Dooku with the Force Dooku would just be too fast from him and engage him in lightsaber combat.

 

Its also not Yoda's style, he is a warrior, not a sorcerer. Jedi taught to use the Force in restraint, and always used the lightsaber first. Conjuring telekinetic storms and the like was Sith practice who abused their power.

 

Also Yoda says "powerful you have become Dooku, but much to learn you still have." Yoda wasn't in any doubt that he was a considerably superior Force user - he dispelled all of Dooku's attacks with relative ease.

 

If disarmed however, Satele will have no other choice.

 

A lot of that slow laborious stuff is film dramatic effect - a kind of tribute to that X-Wing scene in The Empire Strikes back - where at that point in time that was a very impressive feat and EU hadn't upped the ante in a DragonballZ like power creep. Yoda is as quick as he needs to be in any given situation. in AOTC that was 'plot armour' to allow Dooku to escape as that's what needed to happen for the story.

 

When Yoda fought Sidious- look how quickly he took out the imperial Guards with making very little visible physical effort and he force pushed Sidious quickly enough without having to 'build up' any energies.

Again where Yoda encountered Ventress - he froze her mid strike (even having a bit of a conversation with the Toydarion king as he held her with ease) then force pushed her back, quickly without any 'build up' and then instantaneously and effortlessly stripped her of her sabers stopping a fight before it even began - he even gave them back to her straight away because she was so little threat to him. Yoda seemed to use the force first here and didn't even draw his Saber in this encounter.

Not to mention how Yoda can enhance his speed/reflexes to ridiculous levels with the force.

 

Yoda is a master of both Lightsaber combat and Force Abilities and I would say superior to Satele in both aspects and would beat her any way she wishes to play it.

[fellblade]

I highly doubt any of Dooku's attacks on anything else but her lightsaber will work - because a saberstaff affords you an excellent defense which in the right hands can become nigh impenetrable. And Satele one would assume has achieved a level of mastery over lightsaber combat.

 

Essentially she can quite easily bat away Dooku's attacks by twirling her saber, and her arms are completely protected by the blades - any attempt to attack her arms with result in a collision with her lightsaber. The most obvious means of defeating his opponent would be through Makashi's trademark sun djem attack - i.e. cutting the saber in half. There is no reason to suggest that Dooku would not exploit that obvious weakness - rather than waste time attempting to cut at her legs and arms - which would be a useless gesture.

 

Now while Dooku would still win a saber duel, Satele's Force abilities will ensure the fight doesn't end there.

 

Notice that I said 'wouldn't have to' (did Sidious have to cut Savage Oppress' saber in half to kill him?) - sure, Dooku would cut the saber in half if he had the right opportunity- but he would also take arm/leg cuts - whatever presents itself in the ebb an flow of a duel - a good Duellist would be able to capitalise on whatever opportunity presents itself.

 

You don't get an impenetrable defence just by having a particular weapon - some may help with defence but it is still down to the actual defensive abilities of the user and the opponent you are fighting (I also don't think that Satele was a Soresu master she seemed more Ataru so she would be using the weapon more offensively and acrobatically which in itself would detract from the inherent defensive nature) rather that someone like Zannah who was a Soresu master and totally concentrated on lightsaber defence during a fight. - I think we both agree that Dooku has superior duelling skill which will most likely afford him more advantageous opportunities in a Duel.

 

Our main disagreement is that I don't think Satele would be able to just blow Dooku away in the Force especially if she was disarmed and fighting an armed and fully prepared Dooku. Also a possibility of losing a lightsaber duel is getting killed in said lightsaber duel - she may not even get the opportunity to utilise her force abilities.

She was only able to get that opportunity on Malgus as he was stunned by the grenade and his inherent force defences were temporarily weakened - if she could do something like that at any time she would not have admitted that Malgus would beat her if she didn't have Jace's help.

There is probably a good reason why Satele did not want to face Malgus again - hell, a good reason why she doesn't even face imperial Player Characters - Dooku even at his advanced age was formidable - if Satele at her age diminished to the point where she said that the Hero Of Tython was more powerful than her (and it's not to say she went off and became a hermit - she was an active Jedi Grandmaster) -then compared to the likes of the elite PT Jedi (which Dooku was certainly one of) I think she will come up short.

[Beniboybling]

Notice that I said 'wouldn't have to' (did Sidious have to cut Savage Oppress' saber in half to kill him?) - sure, Dooku would cut the saber in half if he had the right opportunity- but he would also take arm/leg cuts - whatever presents itself in the ebb an flow of a duel - a good Duellist would be able to capitalise on whatever opportunity presents itself.

 

You don't get an impenetrable defence just by having a particular weapon - some may help with defence but it is still down to the actual defensive abilities of the user and the opponent you are fighting (I also don't think that Satele was a Soresu master she seemed more Ataru so she would be using the weapon more offensively and acrobatically which in itself would detract from the inherent defensive nature) rather that someone like Zannah who was a Soresu master and totally concentrated on lightsaber defence during a fight. - I think we both agree that Dooku has superior duelling skill which will most likely afford him more advantageous opportunities in a Duel.

 

Our main disagreement is that I don't think Satele would be able to just blow Dooku away in the Force especially if she was disarmed and fighting an armed and fully prepared Dooku. Also a possibility of losing a lightsaber duel is getting killed in said lightsaber duel - she may not even get the opportunity to utilise her force abilities.

She was only able to get that opportunity on Malgus as he was stunned by the grenade and his inherent force defences were temporarily weakened - if she could do something like that at any time she would not have admitted that Malgus would beat her if she didn't have Jace's help.

There is probably a good reason why Satele did not want to face Malgus again - hell, a good reason why she doesn't even face imperial Player Characters - Dooku even at his advanced age was formidable - if Satele at her age diminished to the point where she said that the Hero Of Tython was more powerful than her (and it's not to say she went off and became a hermit - she was an active Jedi Grandmaster) -then compared to the likes of the elite PT Jedi (which Dooku was certainly one of) I think she will come up short.

At this point I'm playing devil's advocate because I'm starting to think Dooku could win this - or at least I'd like him too - but for the sake of debate I'll hold back on the Count's trump cards.

 

Notice how I said a nigh impenetrable defense in the right hands. Satele isn't exactly capable of putting up an impregnable wall and certainly not in Soresu. But she clearly knows her way around the saberstaff and its defensive techniques. Now like I said before attacks on her arms just aren't possible. Satele could literally stay stock still and Dooku wouldn't be able to touch them, without physically moving around her blades.

 

Any attack on her legs will also prove difficult because the saberstaff's enlarged surface area makes the legs all the more easy to protect. All she most do is angle the blade to make her legs invulnerable, or alternatively - in true Ataru fashion - she can leap out of harms way. And as I've already explained Dooku's tactic of slashing an opponents back in mid-air isn't going to work with Satele's saberstaff angled towards him.

 

Essentially what I'm saying is those opportunities just won't present themselves - Savage's death being a bad example as he was impaled in the stomach by a duelist who was just too quick for him. This won't be the case.

 

So, given that Dooku is most certainly likely to not harm her in the lightsaber duel. This allows Satele to use tutanimis to defend herself once disarmed. Remembering that a single Force push will be enough to disarm Dooku who can be slowly worn down with telekinetic barrages, pushes and waves. Its also possible that Satele could collapse the cave on him. And while that alone might not kill him, it will disarm/weaken him and then Satele can dispatch him with his weapon.

 

Indeed if Dooku is disarmed with a Force push and Satele grabs his weapon, it could be game over for the Count.

 

P.S. And don't make the assumption that the PT Jedi are broadly superior to the Old Republic era. Satele Shan was an extremely powerful Force user - as was the Hero of Tython who took down the Sith Emperor. And has gone up against a considerably more powerful Sith adversary in the form of Darth Malgus.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Beniboybling

[sell-dog]

lol thank you - but I can't take credit for that signature - if you notice it was originally posted by someone called Barringer during a Tulak hord debate - I just found it funny, so I took it as my signature.

 

As for Dooku - you may be underestimating him a bit here -

I don't think Yoda would want to necessarily kill him but I don't think Yoda would 'delay' with him in that situation especially seeing as Anakin and Obi Wan were injured and needed help.

He would want to get Dooku out of the way as quickly as possible (even if using the force to subdue him) because as far as he knew, Dooku could have been THE (rule of 2) Sith Master and by taking him out - perhaps the impending war could have been avoided or at least heavily setback by eliminating Dooku as a factor - but Dooku seemed to be too powerful to taken out easily and required that Yoda engage him in a lightsaber contest to eventually wear him down. Yoda even said - 'powerful you have become Dooku' so perhaps he could sense this.

 

While I still have a leaning towards Dooku, I think you're overestimating Dooku here. Yoda would/should have killed him but his emotional attachment to the idea of bringing his Padawan back from the Dark Side was too strong.

 

Yoda knew that Dooku was not the Sith Master. Dooku left the Jedi Order after Qui-Gonn is defeated by Maul. Yes there have been Jedi infiltrations by Sith as we know from one of the SWTOR Galactic Timeline shorts but given that Dooku is brought in at such a young age then followed closely by Yoda and others throughout his time as he was a very powerful Jedi it's safe to say that everyone knew Dooku was not the Sith Master. Also you mentioned that it is plot dynamics that allow Dooku to escape as he does a similar maneuver in Dark Rendezvous I believe. Dooku can hold his own for a little against Yoda but that is it.

[Beniboybling]

A lot of that slow laborious stuff is film dramatic effect - a kind of tribute to that X-Wing scene in The Empire Strikes back - where at that point in time that was a very impressive feat and EU hadn't upped the ante in a DragonballZ like power creep. Yoda is as quick as he needs to be in any given situation. in AOTC that was 'plot armour' to allow Dooku to escape as that's what needed to happen for the story.

 

When Yoda fought Sidious- look how quickly he took out the imperial Guards with making very little visible physical effort and he force pushed Sidious quickly enough without having to 'build up' any energies.

Again where Yoda encountered Ventress - he froze her mid strike (even having a bit of a conversation with the Toydarion king as he held her with ease) then force pushed her back, quickly without any 'build up' and then instantaneously and effortlessly stripped her of her sabers stopping a fight before it even began - he even gave them back to her straight away because she was so little threat to him. Yoda seemed to use the force first here and didn't even draw his Saber in this encounter.

Not to mention how Yoda can enhance his speed/reflexes to ridiculous levels with the force.

 

Yoda is a master of both Lightsaber combat and Force Abilities and I would say superior to Satele in both aspects and would beat her any way she wishes to play it.

You'll notice that all these showings are also outside of combat. Yoda is a scholar, he is not used to or geared towards spamming Force attacks on the fly in the midst of a battle. Because he is used to sitting on a little chair, doing meditative stuff. He needs to be free from distraction and able to concentrate before he can use potent applications of the Force - which is why he never has resorted to this in lightsaber combat.

 

Satele is a far more active Grandmaster, she doesn't sit in a chair all day lecturing Younglings. She's out on the front lines battling Sith, she only got the title by going out into the galaxy and rediscovering Tython. She is well versed in the nuances of battle and has a huge wealth of combat experience - growing up during the Great Galactic War.

 

And of course in lightsaber combat Yoda - as you mentioned - is constantly burning off energy via Force Valor. If he started expending energy with Force pushes and the like - he would tire very quickly..

[Aurbere]

Save the Yoda talk for another time, people.

[Beniboybling]

Save the Yoda talk for another time, people.

Agreed.