Kaggath Tournament - Dark Imperium vs Undying Brotherhood

[Beniboybling]

A stealth fleet that Malgus created & commanded which practically nullifies that right away and Sith space that Malgus lived in and fought active campaigns in, not only that but also carved out new space in and fought campaigns throughout the unknown regions surrounding Dromund Kaas.

 

Yeh he clearly knows of ways in and out of Sith Space as he created new lanes to unknown territories.

 

Honestly the DI is fighting against the worst possible option for an opposing faction leader I can think of, he gives the UB huge amounts of information on both of the points you brought up.

How exactly would commanding the stealth fleet 'practically nullify it'?

 

You have a point about hyperlanes however.

[Beniboybling]

It has been felt.

http://www.abiyamo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/apply-cold-water-to-the-burned-area.jpg

[Aurbere]

Just a question I forgot to ask at the beginning of this series. Has Anonymous Dude returned to the Kaggath?

[Beniboybling]

Just a question I forgot to ask at the beginning of this series. Has Anonymous Dude returned to the Kaggath?

But of course.

[Beniboybling]

OK, time to stir things up a bit. I'll start with the Imperium:

 

Invisibility: this is the Imperium's greatest advantage. They can essentially disappear. With the exception of Malachor V their planets are almost a formality, and Malachor V itself has infamous natural defenses. Traya's assassins and herself are capable of cloaking themselves from all kinds of detection, including detection through the Force. Traya commands a fleet that too can disappear at will, has two of the most deadly assassins of their respective eras and an army of shadow warriors. So as you can imagine, the Imperium is going to capitalize on stealth. And with the Brotherhood's worlds being rather 'backward' they can bypass defenses easily and strike without impunity. On top of that, Malgus would never see them coming - which puts them in a position to seriously damage Malgus' infrastructure

 

Traps and Ambushes: effectively an extension of the above, the Imperium is in a good position to stage a variety of ambushes and traps and corner their enemies with impossible odds. Indeed by striking at their relatively undefended planets and conquering them they can lure the enemy into an environment of their choosing and then overwhelm them with impossible odds. The enemy will be incapable of orbitally bombarding their planets lest they which to totally destroy their infrastructure, and will be forced to land and likely walk straight into a trap.

 

Assassins: as I said previously, the Imperium has some of the best assassins in history at its disposal. Darth Maul makes for the perfect vanguard unit, with the Scimitar at his disposal he can slip past practically any conventional defense, heck he even flew it over the Jedi Temple itself. With his Dark Eye probe droids he can scout the surrounding area and he himself is capable of dealing catastrophic damage at the heart of enemy territory. Remembering that he once took down all nine Vigos of the Black Sun including their leader at the heart of their powerbase. He won't just soften planets up for the ensuing invasion, he'll devastate them.

 

Then we have HK-47, a Jedi Hunter, employed by Darth Revan during the Jedi Civil War to capture or kill likely countless Jedi. He is experienced and he is skilled and will be highly adept at taking down the Force-based majority of the Undying Brotherhood. On top of that he has a great deal of subtly and skill in infiltration. And then finally we have an entire army of Sith Assassins, designed specifically to take down Force users.

 

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All three of these advantages combined, and Darth Traya has an effective means of essentially taking control of every single one of the enemy's planets, and turning them into death traps when the enemy attempts to reclaim them. All with the intention of taking out Malgus, or at least several members of the Brotherhood's Leadership.

 

Of course, even if that fails, consider the damage they can do to the Brotherhood's infrastructure. Then can shutdown interplanetary communications, cut off supplies and reinforcements, demoralize the enemy, seize military assets, uncover important military intel, turn the enemies weapons against them and of course strand their forces.

 

Arguments for the Undying Brotherhood are on their way, but I'll give everyone a chance to mull these over.

[LadyKulvax]

How exactly would commanding the stealth fleet 'practically nullify it'?

 

He didnt just command them, he took over the entire operation and actively oversaw the construction of those fleets and commanded them all, I am inclined to suggest that Malgus could simply convert them over to his side given the fact they were willing to abandon the Empire and the Sith Emperor himself to fight for him, that is a big issue for the DI straight away.

 

There is also an internal problem for the DI, Darth Maul was born and bred on the Rule of Two, Traya and all her Assassins are NOT going to go down well with him, I can easily see him turning his back on her and betraying her to reinstate the Rule of Two, though I think he is also going to want to kill the Force Users on the opposite side as well.

 

Darth Maul's belief in the Rule of Two is absolutely unwavering, it is a core part of his nature, this is not something that can be overlooked.

Edited September 25, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

But of course.

 

So then it would be correct to say that Malgus knows about Traya's forces (and vice-versa of course)?

[Beniboybling]

He didnt just command them, he took over the entire operation and actively oversaw the construction of those fleets and commanded them all, I am inclined to suggest that Malgus could simply convert them over to his side given the fact they were willing to abandon the Empire and the Sith Emperor himself to fight for him, that is a massive ***** in the armor of that loyalty straight away.

 

There is also an internal problem for the DI, Darth Maul was born and bred on the Rule of Two, Traya and all her Assassins are NOT going to go down well with him, I can easily see him turning his back on her and betraying her to reinstate the Rule of Two, though I think he is also going to want to kill the Force Users on the opposite side as well.

 

Darth Maul's belief in the Rule of Two is absolutely unwavering, it is a core part of his nature, this is not something that can be overlooked.

They are ships, ships are not sentient... remembering that they will be manned by the naval forces of the Dark Imperium which in this case is the naval force of Revan's Sith Navy - who should be noted do indeed have extensive knowledge of the enemies vessels and weaknesses.

 

Now Malgus is no scientist, he may have overseen the operation, but I doubt he had much of idea of how it actually worked, and therefore likely possess little to no information on how exactly he can nullify their stealth fields. All he has is knowledge of the ships themselves, however this won't be much help when they are stealthed.

 

Maul supports the Rule of Two yes, but Darth Traya (as the sole other Sith Lord) is his Master - therefore in his eyes the Rule of Two stands. Remember that as disciples of Revan the Triumvirate very much adhered to having power centralised in a few individuals, and the Darth title was sparinging used. I can assure you Traya and Maul will be the only Dark Lords of the Sith within the Imperium, as such the Rule of Two is not broken.

 

On the other hand Darth Malgus originates from an Empire that disregards such rules entirely. There are hundreds and hundreds of Darths within his Empire, and while none such will be present in Malgus' army. It will contain a far share of Lords and I doubt Maul will much distinguish between the two. And of course we have Darth Vindicaa, so that makes three. Essentially Traya's philosophy is far closer to his than Malgus'.

 

Add to that the fact that Traya is very manipulative, if she can control Sion so easily, she will have little trouble with Maul. Essentially in his eyes she'll be a substitute for Sidious, the power-gap is large enough.

[Beniboybling]

So then it would be correct to say that Malgus knows about Traya's forces (and vice-versa of course)?

No, they only possess a small amount of information on their opponents Head of State, and Second-in-Command. In regards to military they are only aware of vague numbers.

 

E.g. Traya will be aware that Malgus' navy is far far larger than her own.

[LadyKulvax]

They are ships, ships are not sentient... remembering that they will be manned by the naval forces of the Dark Imperium which in this case is the naval force of Revan's Sith Navy - who should be noted do indeed have extensive knowledge of the enemies vessels and weaknesses.

 

Now Malgus is no scientist, he may have overseen the operation, but I doubt he had much of idea of how it actually worked, and therefore likely possess little to no information on how exactly he can nullify their stealth fields. All he has is knowledge of the ships themselves, however this won't be much help when they are stealthed.

 

Maul supports the Rule of Two yes, but Darth Traya (as the sole other Sith Lord) is his Master - therefore in his eyes the Rule of Two stands. Remember that as disciples of Revan the Triumvirate very much adhered to having power centralised in a few individuals, and the Darth title was sparinging used. I can assure you Traya and Maul will be the only Dark Lords of the Sith within the Imperium, as such the Rule of Two is not broken.

 

On the other hand Darth Malgus originates from an Empire that disregards such rules entirely. There are hundreds and hundreds of Darths within his Empire, and while none such will be present in Malgus' army. It will contain a far share of Lords and I doubt Maul will much distinguish between the two. And of course we have Darth Vindicaa, so that makes three. Essentially Traya's philosophy is far closer to his than Malgus'.

 

Add to that the fact that Traya is very manipulative, if she can control Sion so easily, she will have little trouble with Maul. Essentially in his eyes she'll be a substitute for Sidious, the power-gap is large enough.

 

Oh I thought each of the ships were manned by the people that actually used them, my mistake.

 

Malgus' knowledge however is certainly something for debate, I believe he does know how to discover his own ships, he might not be a scientist but he does know his stuff, he proved that at Serenno.

 

He also proved he knew of one way to track them when he has his men actively destroy things such as communication signals, etc... that apparently gave away his ships, once the strike-team broke into his station.

 

The Sith Assassins are all Sith as well, as Selenial herself noted, there are many 'elite' Sith Assassins that wield lightsabers and train their own apprentices, Maul was born and bred to believe that there can only be two Sith period, not two Dark Lords + their Sith lackeys.

 

I can honestly see Maul going off on his own, not joining the UB but attempting to take out both sides whenever he finds it possible, he IS a hardcore Rule of Two banite Sith to the core.

[Aurbere]

Hmm... Darth Maul going rogue? Would that be allowed?

[Beniboybling]

I can honestly see Maul going off on his own, not joining the UB but attempting to take out both sides whenever he finds it possible, he IS a hardcore Rule of Two banite Sith to the core.

I'll begin by challenging this. Maul was trained to be a weapon, his grasp of Sith politics or philosophy was not strong and webbed with doubts and misconceptions. For one he himself was a violation of the Rule of Two, something he himself suspected, he also believed himself incapable of carrying on the Sith legacy. And in general he has only ever espoused the Rule of Two doctrine in the Clone Wars when it suited his needs. Simply put, he was no Bane.

 

Regardless, what was Bane's opinion toward Revan? Idolisation. Despite the fact that Revan employed a swathe of Sith lackeys, because regardless of that Revan still centralized true power in two individuals. Traya is no different. Also remembering that Sith Assassins, even the elite, are not really Sith Lords at all, they are mindless pawns who possess only a fraction of their master's power. And to my knowledge they do not train apprentices. They are far more akin to the various pawns that Darth Sidious employed e.g. the Inquisitorius. Indeed we should ask ourselves, if Maul had continued to be Sidious' apprentice do you think he would have huffed and puffed and blew the house down when Sidious started employing Sith lackeys? No, he listen to and obey his master's wisdom.

 

Which brings us to Maul's personality, like I said his grasp of Sith philosophy is tenuous and he is also very naive and doesn't really seem to grasp the reality of his position. He does what his master tells him, and espouses what his master tells him. Here it will be no different, like he did with Sidious, Maul with idolize Traya as a being vastly more powerful than him. He'll listen to everything she says and given her skills, I see no reason why Maul simply won't be convinced that Traya's doctrines are truth. After all why does he believe in the Rule of Two? Because Sidious convinced him. Why does he hate the Jedi? Because Sidious convinced him. He has no real reason to do what he does or believe what he does, but his master simply plants these thoughts in his head and he accepts them.

 

Simply put, Maul does not have the intellectual independence or understanding of an individual such as Bane to break away and go rogue, he is a slave to his master who in this case is Darth Traya. If anyone can control him, she can.

[tunewalker]

Any one else still kind of wondering how the leadership is going to be killed. We already know a straight war is not one the DI can win, so we know their only means of fighting will be to stealthily pick off target after target in the UB and have one of those targets be Malgus. Since Malgus is on the frontlines a lot this makes it both easier and much harder. It makes it easier as we know he will be out in the open for assassinations and one trap for one battle the DI can actually win is all it will take but then they have to make sure Malgus goes down (a capture the Viceroy scenario). It makes it harder in the respect that he will always have back up of a fairly powerful unit meaning he will be hard to catch off guard.

 

The advantage of the DI here is that none of the UB have really fought against an opponent using solely gorilla tactics against them. Those closest is Malgus but everyone else is not accustomed to fighting a hidden war.

[Aurbere]

Any one else still kind of wondering how the leadership is going to be killed. We already know a straight war is not one the DI can win, so we know their only means of fighting will be to stealthily pick off target after target in the UB and have one of those targets be Malgus. Since Malgus is on the frontlines a lot this makes it both easier and much harder. It makes it easier as we know he will be out in the open for assassinations and one trap for one battle the DI can actually win is all it will take but then they have to make sure Malgus goes down (a capture the Viceroy scenario). It makes it harder in the respect that he will always have back up of a fairly powerful unit meaning he will be hard to catch off guard.

 

The advantage of the DI here is that none of the UB have really fought against an opponent using solely gorilla tactics against them. Those closest is Malgus but everyone else is not accustomed to fighting a hidden war.

 

That's a good point. But there are obvious drawbacks to guerilla style warfare in this kind of battle.

[Beniboybling]

OK, not much counter argument for my points so I'll throw some in for the Brotherhood instead:

 

Raw Power: almost in polar opposite to the Imperium, the Brotherhood is almost entirely geared towards head on battle, boasting immense firepower and even greater numbers. An army of 1,000 Sith Lords and 10,000 Massassi Warriors effectively makes for an unstoppable wall of death that will crush anything that attempts to match it head on. And it doesn't end there, in space they are just as dominating, boasting one of full force on one of the most powerful navies in history vastly ahead of its time, and what's more in grossly superior numbers to their opponents. Given that, the best tactic that the Brotherhood can employ is simply to overwhelm the enemy with raw power. Devastating their opponents planet by planet until they have no were else to run and hide. Then they die.

 

Tactical Superiority: Malgus, Grievous, Ventress and Durge combined possess a vast degree of tactical ability. Grievous and Malgus in particular being renowned tacticians in their respective field. This, combined with superior numbers, puts the Brotherhood in an measurable powerful position. Essentially if either one of these is present in a battle, the Brotherhood is almost guaranteed success unless the Imperium can pull the rug from under them.

 

Strike Teams: the Brotherhood has an equally powerful, though not quite as stealthy, vanguard unit. Ventress and Durge combined make for a formidable pair and are more than capable of taking on the majority of the Imperium's forces, and doing devastating damage. This duo will be most effective at taking out targets that it is either too difficult or too costly for the larger ground force to deal with effectively i.e. the Ore Cannon on Raxus Prime or otherwise countering the Imperium's stealth attacks.

 

========================================================

 

Combined and we have the best tactic for the Brotherhood being open warfare, 'blitzkrieg' style tactics, essentially rushing in with overwhelming force and tactical superiority and systematically conquering each and every one of the Imperium's planets while devastating their military forces. If they can achieve this quickly and successfully, the need to retreat and resupply will become minimal, and with it the effect of Traya's tactics.

[LadyKulvax]

I also think that the idea of Malgus fighting on the frontlines isn't taking into account the fact that Darth Malgus in his prime rarely goes on the frontlines actually, he sends other powerful people to complete missions for him and does the planning instead, so I think this version of Malgus is simply not going to be on the frontlines, the furthest he is likely to get is the Head Quarters of a planet, but not the frontlines.

[Beniboybling]

I also think that the idea of Malgus fighting on the frontlines isn't taking into account the fact that Darth Malgus in his prime rarely goes on the frontlines actually, he sends other powerful people to complete missions for him and does the planning instead, so I think this version of Malgus is simply not going to be on the frontlines, the furthest he is likely to get is the Head Quarters of a planet, but not the frontlines.

I don't know, I think that was just a plot device to have Malgus as the final boss.

 

In all other cases, Malgus has been on the front - which is where he will be most effective.

[LadyKulvax]

I don't know, I think that was just a plot device to have Malgus as the final boss.

 

In all other cases, Malgus has been on the front - which is where he will be most effective.

 

Till the end of the Great Galactic War he was yes, since then? he planned campaigns in the Unknown Regions, took a place of power outside the Dark Council, planned major campaigns throughout the Cold War and then when he became a splinter faction he ruled from his seat of power behind the scenes.

 

He was once a frontline Warrior, not so much in his later years.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Till the end of the Great Galactic War he was yes, since then? he planned campaigns in the Unknown Regions, took a place of power outside the Dark Council, planned major campaigns throughout the Cold War and then when he became a splinter faction he ruled from his seat of power behind the scenes.

 

He was once a frontline Warrior, not so much in his later years.

 

He be slacking!

[Beniboybling]

Till the end of the Great Galactic War he was yes, since then? he planned campaigns in the Unknown Regions, took a place of power outside the Dark Council, planned major campaigns throughout the Cold War and then when he became a splinter faction he ruled from his seat of power behind the scenes.

 

He was once a frontline Warrior, not so much in his later years.

We don't know what happened in the Unknown Regions, he planned all his strategies, but exacted them personally.

 

He was also seen in trailers participating in conflicts on Ilum. So I don't think he's taken an entirely back seat role, its just not his style and not where he is most effective. That said the situation may demand it.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Ya know thinking on it....I don't see the Shadow Troopers as being exactly helpful here, given that their enemy is Force Sensitive and thus making their stealth all but null and void, so their ability to surround the enemy before they can defend themselves isn't really gonna fly. Sith Assassins may fair better though...but not every time.

 

That is as far as stealth is concerned anyway...open battle, it is the other way around if for the only fact is that Shadow Troopers have at least ranged weaponry...but that'll get them only so far.

[tunewalker]

Ya know thinking on it....I don't see the Shadow Troopers as being exactly helpful here, given that their enemy is Force Sensitive and thus making their stealth all but null and void, so their ability to surround the enemy before they can defend themselves isn't really gonna fly. Sith Assassins may fair better though...but not every time.

 

That is as far as stealth is concerned anyway...open battle, it is the other way around if for the only fact is that Shadow Troopers have at least ranged weaponry...but that'll get them only so far.

 

This is a very good point and in all honesty the Shadow troopers are the bulk of the DI strength as they are far more numerous. I don't know we already know the UB can win a straight war, and it seems to be debatable whether or not the DI can pull off an assassination, but I haven't heard nearly enough arguments about either side to really be able to back either one right now. In a straight war the UB win but I don't think this will be a straight war Traya's not stupid and neither is Maul or HK or Trench if they see a fight they cant win straight up Traya, maul and HK are very at home just disappearing and trying to assassinate HK especially is good at killing force sensitves for a droid, but in the end I don't know that they have strong enough assassins to kill Malgus before Malgus finds traya and chops her head off with his saber.

[Wolfninjajedi]

This is a very good point and in all honesty the Shadow troopers are the bulk of the DI strength as they are far more numerous. I don't know we already know the UB can win a straight war, and it seems to be debatable whether or not the DI can pull off an assassination, but I haven't heard nearly enough arguments about either side to really be able to back either one right now. In a straight war the UB win but I don't think this will be a straight war Traya's not stupid and neither is Maul or HK or Trench if they see a fight they cant win straight up Traya, maul and HK are very at home just disappearing and trying to assassinate HK especially is good at killing force sensitves for a droid, but in the end I don't know that they have strong enough assassins to kill Malgus before Malgus finds traya and chops her head off with his saber.

 

I could see Maul/HK being a good tag team.

 

Much in a similar manner to Durge/Ventress.

 

On an unrelated note, is anyone having the issue of when posting a message that it takes you to a page where it says the site is under maintenance?

[Beniboybling]

I'm still skeptical in regards to HK being good at killing force sensitives, if only for the fact that there isn't anything listed in HOW he did it if he actually killed any at all. Sure a droid can be programmed to know such things, but that isn't entirely helpful if it isn't used.

 

You got this bit where it is said he served Revan during the Jedi Civil War....so that must mean he killed Jedi right? Well see the problem I have with this is....was there any circumstances involving said kill? Such as was said Jedi in the middle of battle and unable to sense the danger coming from HK and thus was killed? Were they Padawans?

 

How do we even know HK killed any Jedi anyway? Nothing really points to it other than he killed those that could destabilize the galaxy...which isn't really all that specific in regards to who he killed.

 

NOT saying he CAN'T kill Force Sensitives(especially these ones) but I just don't see anything pointing that he was good at it.

 

Sure he may have the title Jedi Hunter but...I would take into account that is just because of his knowledgeable programming of them rather than actually executing them.

 

But I suppose it is all moot I guess as these guys are Sith, not that I guess it doesn't really make a difference. Though I could see Maul/HK being a good tag team.

 

Much in a similar manner to Durge/Ventress.

HK-47 gives us plenty of information as to how he kills Jedi, and the weapons he has at his disposal. So really its just a question of putting to and to together.

 

HK-47 obviously knows how to catch Force sensitives off guard, and how to capitalise on that, and he has a range of weaponary including grenades, mines, sonic weapons, flamethrowers etc. designed to kill Jedi. So it seem logical to assume that with a little back up he could ambush large groups of Sith and take them out.

 

And HK-47 was designed to take out Jedi, of course he used these abiliites. When the Exile talks to him it sounds like he talks from experience, Revan couldn't have simply programmed him with all those little intricacies, i.e. the consequences of overplanning, Jedi attachment etc. A Jedi Hunter who hasn't hunted any Jedi is kinda lame.

[Wolfninjajedi]

HK-47 gives us plenty of information as to how he kills Jedi, and the weapons he has at his disposal. So really its just a question of putting to and to together.

 

HK-47 obviously knows how to catch Force sensitives off guard, and how to capitalise on that, and he has a range of weaponary including grenades, mines, sonic weapons, flamethrowers etc. designed to kill Jedi. So it seem logical to assume that with a little back up he could ambush large groups of Sith and take them out.

 

And HK-47 was designed to take out Jedi, of course he used these abiliites. When the Exile talks to him it sounds like he talks from experience, Revan couldn't have simply programmed him with all those little intricacies, i.e. the consequences of overplanning, Jedi attachment etc. A Jedi Hunter who hasn't hunted any Jedi is kinda lame.

 

Damnit Beni! << /Sigh..

 

Yes he gives plenty of info...because he was obviously programmed with such info so Revan could have just crammed all the knowledge and experiences he knew into him, and of course he was built to but does that mean he did?...Well who knows, I like having proof here.

 

But anyway in this instances I suppose he could, otherwise he wouldn't be very useful here. As I said not saying he can't.

 

So anyway moving on...not the time for this.