The REAL Most Powerful Jedi Lightsaber Duelists

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

The fact that she can contend almost as long as the battlemaster/grandmaster in saber combat against Malgus while she's still a knight is pretty impressive, plus she's stalemated baras, whom handed angral his ***, whom is considered one of the emperor's more important allies. Also note that Baras seems to specialize in lightsaber combat. Edited September 21, 2013 by XSUPREMESKILLZX

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

Actually, I was incorrect. Satele lasted just as long as the grandmaster, and slightly longer than darach (admittedly malgus went into uber-rage mode).

[Wolfninjajedi]

Grandmaster? When did Malgus fight the Grandmaster?

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

jk, I forgot Zallow wasn't the grandmaster. Nonetheless, satele holding out just as long/longer than the two against malgus, a very skilled lightsaber duelist, is especially impressive.

[Beniboybling]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

jk, I forgot Zallow wasn't the grandmaster. Nonetheless, satele holding out just as long/longer than the two against malgus, a very skilled lightsaber duelist, is especially impressive.

Malgus quickly defeated Satele Shan in lightsaber combat, and overwhelmed Darach through superior Force power. And as an Ataru used fighting multiple opponents Darach was likely somewhat exhausted at that point.

[Aurbere]

AND USING WOOKIEEPEDIA IS PERFECTLY RESPECTABLE!

 

If you're looking for incomplete profiles, sure!

 

I'll give them credit, it's more expansive than the Holocron (so Leland Chee says).

[tunewalker]

Ok for good argument on Coran Horn.

 

Remember where we have Caedus and how skilled and powerful he is. He is just under the Emperor in both catagories so preforming as well as Katarn did is actually a really good testitmate to his abilities and even better testimate is how well the Jedi at his side did. Considering how quickly Sidious took out the ones with Windu and how well the ones with Katarn did I would say the ones with Katarn would have had to of been at least as skilled as Fisto speaking to the general saber skill of the average knight in the NJO as most of them (save for Valin) were Average knights and the above average knights such as Anakin, Jaden, Leia and Ganner would all be classified as better then them (though some at different time periods.) Not to mention the true sword masters of the order such as in reverse order Kenth, Kyp, Kam Solusar, Kyle, Saba and finally of course Corran Horn would be much better meaning that Kyle was likely around the same skill as Shaak Ti.

 

 

Because of this I feel Corran is most assuredly number 9 with number 10 being between Saba and Shaak Ti as both Saba and Corran were known to be slightly better then Kyle.

Edited September 22, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Ok for good argument on Coran Horn.

 

Remember where we have Caedus and how skilled and powerful he is. He is just under the Emperor in both catagories so preforming as well as Katarn did is actually a really good testitmate to his abilities and even better testimate is how well the Jedi at his side did. Considering how quickly Sidious took out the ones with Windu and how well the ones with Katarn did I would say the ones with Katarn would have had to of been at least as skilled as Fisto speaking to the general saber skill of the average knight in the NJO as most of them (save for Valin) were Average knights and the above average knights such as Anakin, Jaden, Leia and Ganner would all be classified as better then them (though some at different time periods.) Not to mention the true sword masters of the order such as in reverse order Kenth, Kyp, Kam Solusar, Kyle, Saba and finally of course Corran Horn would be much better meaning that Kyle was likely around the same skill as Shaak Ti.

 

 

Because of this I feel Corran is most assuredly number 9 with number 10 being between Saba and Shaak Ti as both Saba and Corran were known to be slightly better then Kyle.

The main difference here though is that Sidious caught his opponents completely off guard and combined with his incredible ability in Force speed, quickly overwhelmed them. I don't believe Caedus is as skilled in the use of Force speed and his powers are not as great or refined. And of course, in this situation the Jedi were not caught of guard and were able to work as a team. Whereas Sidious slew two of them before they could take him on as one. On top of that Caedus supposedly hadn't full recovered from his duel with Luke - yet still, Caedus treated Katarn like a child. He treated all of them like children, literally having them falling over each other. Add to that the fact that Caedus was too busy micromanaging all three of them to actually push the offense, whereas Sidious took them down one by one.

 

On top of that Fisto's style is inherently weak against single opponents. So no, its highly unlikely that those "average" Jedi Knights were as skilled as Kit Fisto, one of the greatest swordsman in the Order.

 

And I think Saba owes much of her skill to her Force ability, she's a powerful duelists and uses brute strength to break her opponents. Not to say she isn't skilled, but her Force powers greatly bolster her effectivness.

 

Shaak Ti on the other hand has mastered a perfect style.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Right now I'm thinking:

 

8. Shaak Ti

9. Vodo Siosk-Baas

10. Corran Horn

[LadyKulvax]

I would put Baas above Ti, I honestly dont see how she adequately compares, all evidence points to him being a master of every lightsaber form, otherwise how could he have had the most important hand in the development of the lightsaber forms as Master Kavar states?

 

He is listed as one of the greatest Jedi Guardians of all time.

 

He should be a Battlemaster and Weapon Master as he more than fulfils the requirements of both, he was a lightsaber instructor for countless generations of Jedi, trained some of the best in the entire era and went beyond the lightsaber and took on a wooden saberstaff, something he mastered entirely and used until his death.

 

He was a very adequate match for Exar Kun until Kun started utilising a hybrid form the likes of which isn't seen until Shaak Ti's own timeline, being a strong match for the greatest Niman practitioner of all time and one of the best duellists that ever lived is an obvious showcase of a mastery over the lightsaber in and of itself.

 

Shaak Ti perfected her own technique by combining elements of two forms and could duel a marathon, two very impressive feats, but does that really outmatch the above? I don't believe so, the weight of Baas' career is a lot more respectable in my opinion.

Edited September 23, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

I would put Baas above Ti, I honestly dont see how she adequately compares, all evidence points to him being a master of every lightsaber form, otherwise how could he have had the most important hand in the development of the lightsaber forms as Master Kavar states?

 

He is listed as one of the greatest Jedi Guardians of all time.

 

He should be a Battlemaster and Weapon Master as he more than fulfils the requirements of both, he was a lightsaber instructor for countless generations of Jedi, trained some of the best in the entire era and went beyond the lightsaber and took on a wooden saberstaff, something he mastered entirely and used until his death.

 

He was a very adequate match for Exar Kun until Kun started utilising a hybrid form the likes of which isn't seen until Shaak Ti's own timeline, being a strong match for the greatest Niman practitioner of all time and one of the best duellists that ever lived is an obvious showcase of a mastery over the lightsaber in and of itself.

 

Shaak Ti perfected her own technique by combining elements of two forms and could duel a marathon, two very impressive feats, but does that really outmatch the above? I don't believe so, the weight of Baas' career is a lot more respectable in my opinion.

 

This pretty much Baas has to be above Ti. knowledge he clearly wins as he trained the jedi in lightsaber combat of his time so he had to know all of the forms. Understanding he clearly understood each form enough to use them with a wooden staff instead of a lightsaber and wasn't thrown off by Jarkai at all though I will give Ti a slight understanding lead do to her adaptability.

 

OF course Application is where the tie breaker is at and Baas Dominates this. Ti's ability to duel a marathon has little to nothing to do with her skills and more so to do with how physically fit she was and her powers with force valor and even worse every single time she fights a notable opponent (ones that aren't even on the list by the way) she gets beaten in very short order so she has a terrible track record against skilled opponents. Baas on the other hand went up against our number 6 and though he was surprised by the unorthodoxness of Exar's abilities he still did not lose until his force powers gave out and allowed his staff to be cut in half until then even if he had a issue predicting Exar's moves he was still able to defend against them showing great skill. Baas has to be higher then Ti.

[tunewalker]

The main difference here though is that Sidious caught his opponents completely off guard and combined with his incredible ability in Force speed, quickly overwhelmed them. I don't believe Caedus is as skilled in the use of Force speed and his powers are not as great or refined. And of course, in this situation the Jedi were not caught of guard and were able to work as a team. Whereas Sidious slew two of them before they could take him on as one. On top of that Caedus supposedly hadn't full recovered from his duel with Luke - yet still, Caedus treated Katarn like a child. He treated all of them like children, literally having them falling over each other. Add to that the fact that Caedus was too busy micromanaging all three of them to actually push the offense, whereas Sidious took them down one by one.

 

On top of that Fisto's style is inherently weak against single opponents. So no, its highly unlikely that those "average" Jedi Knights were as skilled as Kit Fisto, one of the greatest swordsman in the Order.

 

And I think Saba owes much of her skill to her Force ability, she's a powerful duelists and uses brute strength to break her opponents. Not to say she isn't skilled, but her Force powers greatly bolster her effectivness.

 

Shaak Ti on the other hand has mastered a perfect style.

 

If you don't believe Caedus has incredible skill in force speed then you don't know squat about Caedus since that was one of his primary skills and abilities. Second I took ALL of this into account when I said what I said. Fisto like the jedi with Katarn was not caught off guard by Sidious he did defend a few of Sidious's attacks but only lasted about 10 seconds. Caedus is not as powerful or quite as skill as Sidious BUT he is CLOSE so Fisto would have done massively better against him...... guess what the Jedi with Katarn did massively better then Fisto did against Sidious.

It is not a case of "Caedus= Sidious thus if you do as well as Fisto against Caedus you are as good as Fisto" no that's not what I said. The argument that he treated all of them like children is a completely moot point look at how well he did against Luke and look where we have him placed because of it...... he would have treated Fisto and Shaak Ti like children as well so that doesn't really change the assessment of the abilities of Katarn or the Jedi with him heck if we want an even closer comparison lets do it the way you like to do it.

 

 

Knowledge: the best we can contribute to Shaak Ti is mastery of Form 1, Form 2, Form 4, and Form 6 as well as Jarkai and Saber staff wielding (form 6 was the standard of the day all jedi were trained to master it as well as form 1 before specializing in their preferred forms)

 

Corran Horn was one of 3 of the sword masters training the students at the academy (the other 2 were Kyle and Kam acutally thinking about this Kyle was likely better saber skill then Saba) as such he was a master of every form (Luke would have given all his sword masters access to the great holocron that had all seven forms in it and Corran learned the classic forms from the Jensaari as well) and even taught his students Jar'kai and Saberstaff skills. As such Corran's knowledge was clearly higher.

 

 

Understanding: Ti had understanding enough to be incredibly adaptable creating a marriage between Makashi and Ataru to make her Ataru more precise as well as giving her some more economy of motion allowing her to last longer in fights able to switch from a single blade to a staff to Jar'kai on the fly she showed great understanding of her forms

 

Corran Horn in addition to mastering the 7 classic forms he was also a master of Luke's hybrid forms and with all his knowledge created his own form of unknown type to play off of his dual phase lightsaber's 3 metter length. The form was Wildly unpredictable and allowed him to keep all but the greatest opponents at bay. It was massively effective no matter what situation the master found himself in.

 

Again I feel I have to give understanding to Corran creating a Hybrid form from hybrid forms that was still massively effective was unheard of in Shaak Ti's time and was pretty much the definition of none enslavement to form.

 

 

 

Application: well the above kind of covers it so cant really talk much here about it if the above is not accepted.

[fellblade]

Fisto just seems to have gone further with his form I feel. Plo Koon may have less weakenesses but in reality, Djem So is a pretty well rounded weak free form anyway. Koon essentially took on a far more difficult form and mastered it to arguably the same level.

 

So can we really fault Fisto for having weaknesses, and Koon not, when Fisto's form poses that much more of a challenge to the wielder? Its important that we consider their ability as a whole, not just strengths and weaknesses.

 

And yes, Fisto had a stylistic advantage, but Shaak Ti really was just outmatched by Grievous. And Kenobi had an advantage against Grievous with Soresu, not only does his perfect defense allow him to handle Grievous' bizarre onslaught but his ability to recognize and exploit weaknesses allows him to make sense of Grievous' form, and disrupt it, which he did to great effect against the General.

 

But we are talking about skill as in pure effective Bladework? -

Because from a technical point of view Fisto's form is the least challenging of forms as it is the most basic and least complex and easiest to 'master' - to use it effectively is the challenge but that would include other factors beyond the actual form which I did not think we were taking into account here.

for instance someone like Savage Oppress is far more effective than his actual skill level - due to things like physical size, strength, resilience and aggressiveness so he could beat a lot people actually more skilled than him

 

if we are talking about actual stylistic mechanics - then it is not the same level if Fisto has inherent weaknesses and Plo Koon does not..... because what Fisto has mastered has given him those weaknesses and what Plo Koon has mastered has not given him those types of flaws - What skills you have chosen to invest your time in is a factor and Plo Koon has invested his time mastering 'better' skills from a duelling point of view.

If Fisto has not stylistically compensated for his weaknesses then it is his own fault for not recognising or doing anything about it - whereas Plo Koon had the mentality to learn Ataru to mitigate the mobility weaknesses of the Djem So style

 

Perhaps Fisto can be somewhat effective but this is as an overall package where it seems that his speed/experience has a lot to do with it.

But as a technical duelling system taking into account no experience or physical advantages (such as speed/agility/strength) or force powers (say everybody is the same) - then ask yourself this - what style would you take into a duel - Fisto's or Plo Koon and for me it is EASILY Plo Koon's over Fisto's

 

but hey - it seems now that Fisto isn't in contention so that is good enough for me

[Beniboybling]

If you don't believe Caedus has incredible skill in force speed then you don't know squat about Caedus since that was one of his primary skills and abilities. Second I took ALL of this into account when I said what I said. Fisto like the jedi with Katarn was not caught off guard by Sidious he did defend a few of Sidious's attacks but only lasted about 10 seconds. Caedus is not as powerful or quite as skill as Sidious BUT he is CLOSE so Fisto would have done massively better against him...... guess what the Jedi with Katarn did massively better then Fisto did against Sidious.

It is not a case of "Caedus= Sidious thus if you do as well as Fisto against Caedus you are as good as Fisto" no that's not what I said. The argument that he treated all of them like children is a completely moot point look at how well he did against Luke and look where we have him placed because of it...... he would have treated Fisto and Shaak Ti like children as well so that doesn't really change the assessment of the abilities of Katarn or the Jedi with him heck if we want an even closer comparison lets do it the way you like to do it.

 

 

Knowledge: the best we can contribute to Shaak Ti is mastery of Form 1, Form 2, Form 4, and Form 6 as well as Jarkai and Saber staff wielding (form 6 was the standard of the day all jedi were trained to master it as well as form 1 before specializing in their preferred forms)

 

Corran Horn was one of 3 of the sword masters training the students at the academy (the other 2 were Kyle and Kam acutally thinking about this Kyle was likely better saber skill then Saba) as such he was a master of every form (Luke would have given all his sword masters access to the great holocron that had all seven forms in it and Corran learned the classic forms from the Jensaari as well) and even taught his students Jar'kai and Saberstaff skills. As such Corran's knowledge was clearly higher.

 

 

Understanding: Ti had understanding enough to be incredibly adaptable creating a marriage between Makashi and Ataru to make her Ataru more precise as well as giving her some more economy of motion allowing her to last longer in fights able to switch from a single blade to a staff to Jar'kai on the fly she showed great understanding of her forms

 

Corran Horn in addition to mastering the 7 classic forms he was also a master of Luke's hybrid forms and with all his knowledge created his own form of unknown type to play off of his dual phase lightsaber's 3 metter length. The form was Wildly unpredictable and allowed him to keep all but the greatest opponents at bay. It was massively effective no matter what situation the master found himself in.

 

Again I feel I have to give understanding to Corran creating a Hybrid form from hybrid forms that was still massively effective was unheard of in Shaak Ti's time and was pretty much the definition of none enslavement to form.

 

 

 

Application: well the above kind of covers it so cant really talk much here about it if the above is not accepted.

If you really did take that all into account, then you'll know that the fights were completely different in nature and therefore entirely incomparable. You claim that Kyle Katarn did massively better than Fisto, but he did not. Katarn made a grand total of two attacks on Caedus. The first Caedus batted away easily, the second Caedus dodged. As for the other Jedi? Zero. All they did was trip over each other. On the other hand Fisto managed to block a few attacks from Sidious before being cut down. I see no massive difference at all.

 

Indeed the only difference is that Caedus never went on the offense on Katarn, while Sidious did to Fisto. So in reality we cannot compare the too, at all. Because on a micro level they are completely different.

 

And that's without taking into account the fact that Caedus was at a disadvantage and Sidious at an advantage. Heck that's without taking into account that Kyle Katarn isn't even Corran Horn! Remembering that just because one is more skilled, does not mean one will do better in relation to that skill. Case in point: Kit Fisto was handedly defeated by Ventress, yet Ventress was disarmed by an encumbered Plo Koon. And yet one could argue that Fisto is the better duelist, or at the least on a similar level. And yet their performances couldn't be more polar.

 

The reason? The situation. The situation changes everything and in this case the situation was not the same.

 

But yes, lets do it the way it should be done, in a 'isolated' environment if you will were direct comparison can be made without the situation and other extenuating circumstances getting involved. And by doing so you've made a much, much better case for Corran Horn than the scenario. However I'll leave it up to the others to decide.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Personally, I don't quite understand why this thread is named "the most powerful Jedi duelist", and not "the most powerful Jedi" ?

 

Not all Jedi were duellists ...

[Beniboybling]

I would put Baas above Ti, I honestly dont see how she adequately compares, all evidence points to him being a master of every lightsaber form, otherwise how could he have had the most important hand in the development of the lightsaber forms as Master Kavar states?

 

He is listed as one of the greatest Jedi Guardians of all time.

 

He should be a Battlemaster and Weapon Master as he more than fulfils the requirements of both, he was a lightsaber instructor for countless generations of Jedi, trained some of the best in the entire era and went beyond the lightsaber and took on a wooden saberstaff, something he mastered entirely and used until his death.

 

He was a very adequate match for Exar Kun until Kun started utilising a hybrid form the likes of which isn't seen until Shaak Ti's own timeline, being a strong match for the greatest Niman practitioner of all time and one of the best duellists that ever lived is an obvious showcase of a mastery over the lightsaber in and of itself.

 

Shaak Ti perfected her own technique by combining elements of two forms and could duel a marathon, two very impressive feats, but does that really outmatch the above? I don't believe so, the weight of Baas' career is a lot more respectable in my opinion.

But we are talking about skill as in pure effective Bladework? -

Because from a technical point of view Fisto's form is the least challenging of forms as it is the most basic and least complex and easiest to 'master' - to use it effectively is the challenge but that would include other factors beyond the actual form which I did not think we were taking into account here.

for instance someone like Savage Oppress is far more effective than his actual skill level - due to things like physical size, strength, resilience and aggressiveness so he could beat a lot people actually more skilled than him

 

if we are talking about actual stylistic mechanics - then it is not the same level if Fisto has inherent weaknesses and Plo Koon does not..... because what Fisto has mastered has given him those weaknesses and what Plo Koon has mastered has not given him those types of flaws - What skills you have chosen to invest your time in is a factor and Plo Koon has invested his time mastering 'better' skills from a duelling point of view.

If Fisto has not stylistically compensated for his weaknesses then it is his own fault for not recognising or doing anything about it - whereas Plo Koon had the mentality to learn Ataru to mitigate the mobility weaknesses of the Djem So style

 

Perhaps Fisto can be somewhat effective but this is as an overall package where it seems that his speed/experience has a lot to do with it.

But as a technical duelling system taking into account no experience or physical advantages (such as speed/agility/strength) or force powers (say everybody is the same) - then ask yourself this - what style would you take into a duel - Fisto's or Plo Koon and for me it is EASILY Plo Koon's over Fisto's

 

but hey - it seems now that Fisto isn't in contention so that is good enough for me

Good points all round, I think I agree with you Rayla on Baas over Ti. I was just thinking that as a specialist one could argue Ti's form is more refined and effective than Baas' - however of course we should forget that Baas can be given similar accolades. I think we all agree on that note so I'll place Vodo for #8.

 

Concerning Fisto vs Koon, excellent point Fellblade. One could argue that as a Consular Fisto's form best suited his needs as a style that needed little practice, much like Niman. However much like Niman when one puts in the effort to master the form to its highest levels, one achieves a highly effective style. And I feel this is what Fisto has done here. Regardless in light of competition both Fisto and Koon drop off the list. So perhaps we should leave that up in the air.

[Beniboybling]

Personally, I don't quite understand why this thread is named "the most powerful Jedi duelist", and not "the most powerful Jedi" ?

 

Not all Jedi were duellists ...

See this thread, that matter has already been discussed.

 

You may also want to check out the home thread for other lists.

 

And just to make clear, by powerful I mean skilled - the word is just used as a name for the overarching series.

[Beniboybling]

OF course Application is where the tie breaker is at and Baas Dominates this. Ti's ability to duel a marathon has little to nothing to do with her skills and more so to do with how physically fit she was and her powers with force valor and even worse every single time she fights a notable opponent (ones that aren't even on the list by the way) she gets beaten in very short order so she has a terrible track record against skilled opponents. Baas on the other hand went up against our number 6 and though he was surprised by the unorthodoxness of Exar's abilities he still did not lose until his force powers gave out and allowed his staff to be cut in half until then even if he had a issue predicting Exar's moves he was still able to defend against them showing great skill. Baas has to be higher then Ti.

Woah, woah lets not be too hard on Ti here.

 

She has defeated scores and scores of Magnaguards, she has defeated a warlord despite having been wounded by a blaster shot to the stomach and she has defeated one of Dooku's Acolytes. She has only ever been beaten by General Grievous (who has defeated many other Jedi and would most certainly defeat Baas in short order) and by Galen Marek who is more powerful than Exar Kun and an excellent lightsaber duelist to boot and would again defeat Baas. And yet still she was able to hold her own against him for more than a prolonged period of time.

 

On the other hand Baas has defeated Kun as a Padawan, but was quickly defeated when he drew a second blade. And has stalemated against Kun as a Sith Lord, before Kun again drew a second blade and then was againg quickly defeated. So the only person who can be said to have a "terrible track record" and has been "beaten in very short order" against skilled opponents is Baas. But even then neither of them have bad track records in my opinion, and I think the gap between their abilities is very small indeed. Baas only really gets it because of greater knowledge.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Woah, woah lets not be too hard on Ti here.

 

She has defeated scores and scores of Magnaguards, she has defeated a warlord despite having been wounded by a blaster shot to the stomach and she has defeated one of Dooku's Acolytes. She has only ever been beaten by General Grievous (who has defeated many other Jedi and would most certainly defeat Baas in short order) and by Galen Marek who is more powerful than Exar Kun and an excellent lightsaber duelist to boot and would again defeat Baas. And yet still she was able to hold her own against him for more than a prolonged period of time.

 

On the other hand Baas has defeated Kun as a Padawan, but was quickly defeated when he drew a second blade. And has stalemated against Kun as a Sith Lord, before Kun again drew a second blade and then was againg quickly defeated. So the only person who can be said to have a "terrible track record" and has been "beaten in very short order" against skilled opponents is Baas. But even then neither of them have bad track records in my opinion, and I think the gap between their abilities is very small indeed. Baas only really gets it because of greater knowledge.

 

She also was beat by Vader, well ok beat may not be the correct term but she wasn't able to best him and would have been killed if she didn't disorient him.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

If you really did take that all into account, then you'll know that the fights were completely different in nature and therefore entirely incomparable. You claim that Kyle Katarn did massively better than Fisto, but he did not. Katarn made a grand total of two attacks on Caedus. The first Caedus batted away easily, the second Caedus dodged. As for the other Jedi? Zero. All they did was trip over each other. On the other hand Fisto managed to block a few attacks from Sidious before being cut down. I see no massive difference at all.

 

Indeed the only difference is that Caedus never went on the offense on Katarn, while Sidious did to Fisto. So in reality we cannot compare the too, at all. Because on a micro level they are completely different.

 

And that's without taking into account the fact that Caedus was at a disadvantage and Sidious at an advantage. Heck that's without taking into account that Kyle Katarn isn't even Corran Horn! Remembering that just because one is more skilled, does not mean one will do better in relation to that skill. Case in point: Kit Fisto was handedly defeated by Ventress, yet Ventress was disarmed by an encumbered Plo Koon. And yet one could argue that Fisto is the better duelist, or at the least on a similar level. And yet their performances couldn't be more polar.

 

The reason? The situation. The situation changes everything and in this case the situation was not the same.

 

But yes, lets do it the way it should be done, in a 'isolated' environment if you will were direct comparison can be made without the situation and other extenuating circumstances getting involved. And by doing so you've made a much, much better case for Corran Horn than the scenario. However I'll leave it up to the others to decide.

 

I will concede the point to you a little bit but it is very hard to compare applications with Coran as most of his fights were against the Jensaari or other masters within the order and some at much earlier times in his life, also the NJO knights seem to rely heavily on Force attacks worked into their blade work as the reason the Jedi were "tripping all over themselves" was largly Caedus pushing and pulling them into each other with the force I still think they did well (Kyle made about 5 attacks according to the wookie page on the assault and a few others made attacks as well one of them managed to get the tracking device on his cloak and another was able to deflect a blaster bolt into his leg from the GaG that were his own back up so I still think overall they preformed better then the jedi that accompanied Windu but I will concede it is a different scenario).

[Beniboybling]

She also was beat by Vader, well ok beat may not be the correct term but she wasn't able to best him and would have been killed if she didn't disorient him.

...when did Shaak Ti fight Vader?

[tunewalker]

Woah, woah lets not be too hard on Ti here.

 

She has defeated scores and scores of Magnaguards, she has defeated a warlord despite having been wounded by a blaster shot to the stomach and she has defeated one of Dooku's Acolytes. She has only ever been beaten by General Grievous (who has defeated many other Jedi and would most certainly defeat Baas in short order) and by Galen Marek who is more powerful than Exar Kun and an excellent lightsaber duelist to boot and would again defeat Baas. And yet still she was able to hold her own against him for more than a prolonged period of time.

 

On the other hand Baas has defeated Kun as a Padawan, but was quickly defeated when he drew a second blade. And has stalemated against Kun as a Sith Lord, before Kun again drew a second blade and then was againg quickly defeated. So the only person who can be said to have a "terrible track record" and has been "beaten in very short order" against skilled opponents is Baas. But even then neither of them have bad track records in my opinion, and I think the gap between their abilities is very small indeed. Baas only really gets it because of greater knowledge.

 

The clone wars cartoon exaggerated more then Greivous's abilities all of the Jedi in that show were shown doing extremely well against massive numbers of people they would normally not be able to take. Thus by your definition we can actually see what the rose tinted window is of that series. Jedi do much better against vast number of opponents then they normally do. If you watch that scene when she was fighting the Magna Gaurds you will note she was going to lose had they not backed off after Greivous captured Palpatine she was already tired and their were still to many of them left. They proved able to hurt her so if the fight continued she would have lost and this is the series that shows Jedi in a great light fighting way more opponents then they normally would. If we were to take off those rose tinted glasses their were likely half as many if not less. The time at which Galen beat Shaak Ti was far from his prime last I checked this was still before the first time Vader "betrayed" Galen and was able to defeat Galen with little effort. As far as Galen being skilled with a blade I am sure he is good but I doubt that he beat Shaak Ti do to skill with a blade almost all of his fights can be contributed to his force powers not his blade work. A non-force sensitive Warlord and an Acolyte mean nearly nothing as do the Magna Droids they aren't what I would classify as "meaningful opponents".

 

As for Baas's loss to Kun as a sith lord read what I said again and what happened in that fight again though he was caught off guard by the appearance of the second blade Baas did NOT faulter he was not beaten by Kun until his staff was cut in half so even though he found it difficult to predict Kun's attacks he was STILL able to defend against it until his force powers gave out and his staff broke. If Baas's force powers didn't faulter and his staff didn't break he would have lasted much longer against Kun and there is no saying that Baas would have assuredly lost to Greivous that seems a bit speculative to me.

[Beniboybling]

I will concede the point to you a little bit but it is very hard to compare applications with Coran as most of his fights were against the Jensaari or other masters within the order and some at much earlier times in his life, also the NJO knights seem to rely heavily on Force attacks worked into their blade work as the reason the Jedi were "tripping all over themselves" was largly Caedus pushing and pulling them into each other with the force I still think they did well (Kyle made about 5 attacks according to the wookie page on the assault and a few others made attacks as well one of them managed to get the tracking device on his cloak and another was able to deflect a blaster bolt into his leg from the GaG that were his own back up so I still think overall they preformed better then the jedi that accompanied Windu but I will concede it is a different scenario).

Well if Corran Horn is indeed a master of all seven forms with his own unorthodox style then I must say I agree that he should be placed above Shaak Ti.

[tunewalker]

Well if Corran Horn is indeed a master of all seven forms with his own unorthodox style then I must say I agree that he should be placed above Shaak Ti.

 

Well give me a couple days to dig so I can find the exact info of that I know the Master of all Seven forms is a definite as he was one of the few in the order to do as such as one of Luke's primary blade instructors, but I read the creating his own unorthodox style some where and I cant remember exactly where so I will dig and find it.

[Beniboybling]

The clone wars cartoon exaggerated more then Greivous's abilities all of the Jedi in that show were shown doing extremely well against massive numbers of people they would normally not be able to take. Thus by your definition we can actually see what the rose tinted window is of that series. Jedi do much better against vast number of opponents then they normally do. If you watch that scene when she was fighting the Magna Gaurds you will note she was going to lose had they not backed off after Greivous captured Palpatine she was already tired and their were still to many of them left. They proved able to hurt her so if the fight continued she would have lost and this is the series that shows Jedi in a great light fighting way more opponents then they normally would. If we were to take off those rose tinted glasses their were likely half as many if not less. The time at which Galen beat Shaak Ti was far from his prime last I checked this was still before the first time Vader "betrayed" Galen and was able to defeat Galen with little effort. As far as Galen being skilled with a blade I am sure he is good but I doubt that he beat Shaak Ti do to skill with a blade almost all of his fights can be contributed to his force powers not his blade work. A non-force sensitive Warlord and an Acolyte mean nearly nothing as do the Magna Droids they aren't what I would classify as "meaningful opponents".

 

As for Baas's loss to Kun as a sith lord read what I said again and what happened in that fight again though he was caught off guard by the appearance of the second blade Baas did NOT faulter he was not beaten by Kun until his staff was cut in half so even though he found it difficult to predict Kun's attacks he was STILL able to defend against it until his force powers gave out and his staff broke. If Baas's force powers didn't faulter and his staff didn't break he would have lasted much longer against Kun and there is no saying that Baas would have assuredly lost to Greivous that seems a bit speculative to me.

Did I ever say that these were epic displays of power? No. But are they skilled opponents? Yes. Was Shaak Ti ever quickly and easily beaten by them? No. Would Baas have lost every one of those duels Shaak Ti lost? Most likely.

 

Am I saying that Baas is guilty of of terrible track record? No. Do I believe he's more 'worthy' of the title than Ti? The proof is in the pudding. Shaak Ti has had more wins and less slap downs that Baas. Take from that what you will.

 

EDIT: Simply put saying Shaak Ti has a terrible track record because she was defeated by General Grievous and Galen Marek is a gross exaggeration. Especially given the fact that Baas has fallen in duels much quicker.

 

P.S. Baas' greatest weakeness was the unothrodox of which Grievous is king. If he can't handle Exar Kun's Jar'Kai or his unorthodox saber staff then the chances he'd be able to handle Grievous are very slim indeed.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Beniboybling