The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 13: Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Darth Zannah

[Aurbere]

Yeh I included these details in my own posts, Ulic is not falling for the same thing twice and the illusions he did face were indicatively better than any of the ones Zannah used, Aleema Keto alone could summon enormous and very dangerous illusions herself.

 

I agree. I think Zannah's Sorcery may have been overestimated here.

[Beniboybling]

Ulic Qel-Droma faced down a far superior duellist than Bane, Exar Kun. Exar Kun even before his prime was way beyond anyone else yet Ulic was a match for him, Ulic managed to face arguably the best duellist in the entirety of the Old Republic era until the last decades of the Golden Age of the Jedi, simply put if he can take on Exar Kun he can more than take on Darth Zannah.

 

It should be noted that he is not some brute force duellist whatsoever, he is an exceptionally fast duellist and a master of Djem-So, simply put his technique does not make him slow, it just makes him a lot deadlier.

 

His physical abilities still give him a large advantage because he is much faster and stronger than she is, she can't escape all that well when she can't even out-run her pursuer.

 

It should also be noted that Ulic suffered through the Naddist Uprising and took on the sorcery of the Krath cult, he faced both torture and mental assaults, some of them sorcery based, he has faced Zannah's pet favourite ability before, he didn't cave then, he only went and got more powerful by going fully Dark Side, so he is hardly helpless against Sith Sorcery.

 

He has not only experienced similar, if not the same thing before and managed to overcome the attacks, once again telepathic attacks are not just mind tricks or mind control, it is any mental assault, Ulic learnt how to defend against such things with the light side, he then got even more powerful started to build mental walls and then started to use Mind Control himself, so not only is he highly proficient against telepathic attacks, he has also faced off against sorcery based mental assaults whilst being tortured.

 

Illusions are a whole other practice but she requires concentration to do so, if Ulic knows he is facing a Sith, has seen exactly the same type of sorcery used against him and his managed to pull through the encounter, Zannah's illusions are going to be much less effective against him and she may wall be killed by him charging, or being Force Choked out of her concentration or if she is really unlucky, she gets telekinetically beaten the arse off of her.

The evidence to suggest that pre-prime Exar Kun is far superior to Darth Bane is slim. Both are exceptional duelists in their own rights. And Bane was by far one of the greatest duelists of his age. Regardless it is not unheard of a Soresu user to hold their own against a superior duelist and Zannah fared quite well against Bane. I find it hard to believe that the gap between Bane and Ulic is so large, if even there at all.

 

Its also well known that Bane is far from a "brute force duelist" either, he is extremely fast. I'm sure I don't have to quote the instance in which he protected himself from rainfall with only his lightsaber. He is also exceptionally skilled and refined and his less aggressive tactic was just as ineffective as his brute force onslaught. A war of attrition is inevitable. Ulic simply doesn't have the skills or the power to quickly break through the defenses of a master of Soresu.

 

And concerning evasion, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Ulic is faster than Zannah given the fact that she is both arguably more powerful as well as more nimble. And on multiple occasions has successfully performed acrobatics to extricate herself from a situation, which I'm sure would work against Ulic if it did against Bane.

 

And finally their is no evidence to suggest that the Krath used Summon Fear against Ulic - bearing in mind that this power is designed to kill or place one in a coma, which was not the intentions of the Krath at all. In fact all they ever seemed to do was inject him with Sith poison. I doubt Ulic has ever experienced Zannah's kind of power.

 

And much like with Bane, Zannah's illusions will keep him completely occupied. He will not be in a position to attack Zannah especially as he won't be able to distinguish whether the illusions are real - and a Force choke will have no effect, lets not make the assumption that Zannah is some chump dark side adept. Indeed I stand by my assertion that she is more powerful than Ulic, which puts her in good stead of overwhelming him.

 

But again, Zannah's attack would seem to bypass 'mental barriers'. Bane spent years studying Sith Sorcery in an attempt to find a way to defend himself against Zannah's attack, yet the only means by which he could was through sheer strength of will. One would think that if it were an easy case of building up some barriers that Bane would have not have had so much trouble, especially considering Bane's own personal power.

 

And finally, Zannah's illusions are nothing like the tricks we see the Krath conjuring, which are parlour tricks in comparison to the sheer devastating effect of Zannah's illusions. Not only do they invoke pure terror in even the most powerful of Force users, but they rip through the mind - seemingly regardless of mental barriers - and drive one totally and utterly insane. While the Krath only seem capable of fooling one's perceptions. I find the likelihood that some low grade adepts could perfom sorcery on a greater scale than Zannah to be very unlikely indeed. Remembering that her spells were so potent that they could assault the lingering effects could still assault the minds of others.

 

What exactly have the Krath done to even begin to rival this?

[Beniboybling]

While Zannah does have the double bladed saber which would give her an edge against Ulic as he hasn't faced one before(IIFC), this doesn't mean that her defense won't be penetrated. The double bladed saber does have it's flaws too, IE: Limited movement, not being able to adjust posture, big target because of the hilt

 

If Zannah's saber is destroyed she is gonna be SOL.

Zannah's defense is by no mean impenetrable, but I don't feel Ulic has the skills to penetrate in time. Remember when Bane settled in for the long haul Zannah was noted to be only seconds away from releasing her super charged attack. It wouldn't take long at all for Zannah to build her power and given that she is highly skilled, she is more than capable of holding Ulic of until then.

 

And if not, she has a variety of contingency plans i.e. acrobatics, Force concealment, an off-the-bat sorcery attack.

 

And of course, I'd raise the question that if a Force user more powerful than Ulic struggled with an off-the-bat attack, a Force user who had conquered his fears, steeled his mind and poured over means by which to defend against sorcery, how will Ulic be able to resist an even more powerful assault with none of those advantages?

[LadyKulvax]

Okay we have gone back and forth on this three times now, I will just focus on the illusions issue.

 

The Krath summoned far more than just parlour tricks, the combined Jedi Order just barely managed to figure out that what they had seen was not infact real but some of the illusions drove Republic crews mad completely and let us not forget Aleema Keto herself could summon far more than just illusions, she could summon blasts of pure dark side energy from her hands, she didn't need anything to empower her ability to do this either, Force Blast is noted as one of the most powerful abilities a sorcerer can summon.

 

The illusions that the Krath used weren't as convincing as the ones Zannah used but for very good reason they were on a far far larger magnitude than anything Zannah ever brought to bare making her illusions seemingly superior, but it is obvious and even noted that the larger the illusions the less powerful they actually are.

 

Qel-Droma went through this and direct attacks on his own mind in the attempts to turn him to the Dark Side or simply insane, Aleema didnt care which one she just wanted a puppet warlord to control, unfortunately for her this didn't work and actually back fired in the death of Satal, Ulic later pays her back for her trouble by sending her on that nice super novae vacation.

 

"Oh yes, I have a present for you my Queen, a weapon of ultimate power, a payback of sorts for your unveiling of my mind."

 

He has witnessed and been subject to illusions before, ones of far larger magnitude and others directed straight upon him, sometimes from all the Death Witches combined.

[Beniboybling]

Zannah's form was nearly impenetrable against the people she battled certainly, I'd like to see her attempt to duel Exar Kun and live to talk about it though, Ulic Qel-Droma doesn't just have mastery of his form working for him, he has intense speed even whilst using such a form, indeed he was noted as being super human even among the force users of his time, his stamina and endurance seemed to be endless which only enforced his speed, his strength was enormous and was channelled very effectively into his Djem-So, he duelled far more like Vader pre-Mustafar than closer to any other Form V specialists.

 

His natural ability as a lightsaber combatant is further proven when he has the force stripped from him and he still beats down a fallen Jedi, without any aid in the force, this guy is a physical powerhouse simply put and his natural instincts not force based instincts were on the levels of the best of the Echani.

 

Ulic Qel-Droma could defeat many multiples of enemies with ease(an army, along with his few allies) and this is way before his prime, he was later able to duel one of the best that ever lived on equal terms and though this is not prime Exar Kun he was still clearly above and beyond anyone else in his time, we have all spoken on how many leagues above Exar Kun was for his time and the fact that Ulic Qel-Droma was the only one that ever managed to match him in a straight up lightsaber duel speaks volumes for Qel-Droma.

 

Simply put whilst Zannah can maintain an impressive defence she cannot maintain it indefinitely, Ulic can maintain whatever he damn well wants, he is a physical powerhouse even without the Force, with the Force, well he can endure enormous amounts of torture and pain, he can move faster than Zannah easily and his strength is immense, he out-powered Warb Null who was a physical tank on Vader levels and it should be noted, was enhanced with and wore armour enhanced by Sith Magic and Sorceries.

 

Zannah can go on the defensive all she wants but she will tire, he will not, he can beat the snuffing out of her with telekinetic waves and direct assaults, her ability to perform her mental assaults and sorcery based illusions against him effectively are very questionable and if she does try it, it will most likely result in one thing, her own severe injury or even death, as I stated before, Ulic has gone through more than his fair share of illusions from arguably better sorcery practitioners and actively had mind blocks against such attacks put in place, simply put he has a strong enough will not to fall for the same thing twice (which we do see happening, the illusions directed against him he saw through easier every time they attempted it).

 

So if my assertion is correct it is basically down to Zannah's Soresu mastery vs Ulic's Djem-So mastery, vastly superior physique and telekinetic smackdowns.

The thing is though that this is Bane, not Kun. And Bane and Ulic's abilities are effectively mirror images of each other. Bane is just better. Literally I could take the first few paragraphs and substitute Ulic for Bane and it would still make accurate strength. Bane has intense stamina and speed, incredible endurance and he channeled with effectively into Djem So just like Ulic. And the style he uses against Zannah, both aggressive and refined, is very similar to Vader's.

 

Zannah is not going to be caught off by his style at all, it will be like fighting Bane all over again. The difference here being that there is nothing to make Zannah trip and Ulic has no idea about Zannah's sorcery abilities.

 

And again, Ulic is not at all capable of 'beating the snuffing out of her" with telekinesis, not even close. Zannah will shrug off those attacks with ease, their is a reason that Bane didn't try that on Zannah, because it wouldn't work.

[LadyKulvax]

Simply put it is my opinion from having read both series with a keen eye that Ulic Qel-Droma would beat Zannah in a lightsaber duel, because the arena they are fight in works to his advantage, all the objects in that place would make for fine ammunition for him to use against Zannah and that big double bladed lightsaber is going to make moving difficult for her to say the least.

 

Ulic IS faster he is noted as being extremely fast with endless stamina, she is not noted for any feats of speed whatsoever, this works to his advantage greatly.

 

Combine his ability to use the environment against her and greater feats of speed (literally so fast that the army he was facing couldnt land a blow on him, until his allies started getting overwhelmed and he pulled back) and it makes Zannah's ability to keep him off of her a nightmare for her, all Ulic needs to take her out is that nice big target of a hilt and she is mincemeat, with a double-bladed lightsaber she may be quite able to hold him off, single blade? she's dead, if not dead then she whilst she recovers from her broken weapon, she is once again getting stuff thrown right into her face, making her ability to recover minimal.

 

This is where the physique comes in, she has proven to be rather frail when it comes to injuries, Ulic is a freaking beast, one blow and she is nursing a wound, these types of disadvantages she really cannot afford to concede, Ulic can take injuries and easily, this difference would prove integral in an area where heavy objects are getting thrown at and about her willy nilly.

 

In my opinion the arena works directly into Qel-Droma's advantage and gives him the win in a lightsaber duel.

[Aurbere]

Simply put it is my opinion from having read both series with a keen eye that Ulic Qel-Droma would beat Zannah in a lightsaber duel, because the arena they are fight in works to his advantage, all the objects in that place would make for fine ammunition for him to use against Zannah and that big double bladed lightsaber is going to make moving difficult for her to say the least.

 

Ulic IS faster he is noted as being extremely fast with endless stamina, she is not noted for any feats of speed whatsoever, this works to his advantage greatly.

 

Combine his ability to use the environment against her and greater feats of speed (literally so fast that the army he was facing couldnt land a blow on him, until his allies started getting overwhelmed and he pulled back) and it makes Zannah's ability to keep him off of her a nightmare for her, all Ulic needs to take her out is that nice big target of a hilt and she is mincemeat, with a double-bladed lightsaber she may be quite able to hold him off, single blade? she's dead, if not dead then she whilst she recovers from her broken weapon, she is once again getting stuff thrown right into her face, making her ability to recover minimal.

 

This is where the physique comes in, she has proven to be rather frail when it comes to injuries, Ulic is a freaking beast, one blow and she is nursing a wound, these types of disadvantages she really cannot afford to concede, Ulic can take injuries and easily, this difference would prove integral in an area where heavy objects are getting thrown at and about her willy nilly.

 

In my opinion the arena works directly into Qel-Droma's advantage and gives him the win in a lightsaber duel.

 

That's a good point about physical ability. I noted that Ulic Qel-Droma has pretty much every physical advantage, but he does have that shrapnel wound in him. I believe that it will affect him in some way, which is why I gave Zannah a long term edge.

 

Do you think the shrapnel wound will have any affect on the duel?

[Beniboybling]

Okay we have gone back and forth on this three times now, I will just focus on the illusions issue.

 

The Krath summoned far more than just parlour tricks, the combined Jedi Order just barely managed to figure out that what they had seen was not infact real but some of the illusions drove Republic crews mad completely and let us not forget Aleema Keto herself could summon far more than just illusions, she could summon blasts of pure dark side energy from her hands, she didn't need anything to empower her ability to do this either, Force Blast is noted as one of the most powerful abilities a sorcerer can summon.

 

The illusions that the Krath used weren't as convincing as the ones Zannah used but for very good reason they were on a far far larger magnitude than anything Zannah ever brought to bare making her illusions seemingly superior, but it is obvious and even noted that the larger the illusions the less powerful they actually are.

 

Qel-Droma went through this and direct attacks on his own mind in the attempts to turn him to the Dark Side or simply insane, Aleema didnt care which one she just wanted a puppet warlord to control, unfortunately for her this didn't work and actually back fired in the death of Satal, Ulic later pays her back for her trouble by sending her on that nice super novae vacation.

 

"Oh yes, I have a present for you my Queen, a weapon of ultimate power, a payback of sorts for your unveiling of my mind."

 

He has witnessed and been subject to illusions before, ones of far larger magnitude and others directed straight upon him, sometimes from all the Death Witches combined.

I think the notion "size matters not" applies here, Aleema Keto may be able to cast big warships and the like, but that doesn't make the illusions more potent. None of the Krath have been able to conjure illusions specific to their opponents that not only seem real, but assault the mind directly and drive the subject to madness and then death - let alone Force sensitive opponents of considerable power. They are simply not capable of this.

 

But again, Aleema is never noted to have turned her illusions on Ulic. She tried to seduce him by acting as the innocent party, it was her brother who imprisoned him and tortured him - Aleema was not involved in that. Nor can I find any evidence of her being able to do anything other than conjure illusions, not assault the minds of others. Attacking his mind with potent Sith Sorcery is not exactly the best way to seduce him into being her consort.

[LadyKulvax]

I just stated Aleema's illusions are less potent because of their size, the grander your illusion the less real it seems, all of her personal illusions were enormous in magnitude and thus had a lesser effect, but this was because she was trying to trick an entire navy, not one person.

 

Also Aleema Keto wasn't the one using illusions directly on his mind, the Death Witches were, I have the series right here, Satal uses the Death Witches and torture to either drive him mad or turn him, Aleema didnt care which one, Satal ends up dead because of this and she tries to convince him that she had no part in, Ulic knew the truth and sent her to her death for her trouble.

 

Simply put he has faced and witnessed illusions born of sorcery before and dealt with them adequately enough.

 

We have gone back and forth on this, it is time Aurbere made his decision, we can keep arguing but it will simply go round in circles.

Edited September 11, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[LadyKulvax]

That's a good point about physical ability. I noted that Ulic Qel-Droma has pretty much every physical advantage, but he does have that shrapnel wound in him. I believe that it will affect him in some way, which is why I gave Zannah a long term edge.

 

Do you think the shrapnel wound will have any affect on the duel?

 

Whilst the shrapnel could hinder him, it didnt in his battle with Mandalore nor in any of the battles he fought past that, apparently the shrapnel's effect decreased as his fall to the Dark Side became more and more complete.

[Beniboybling]

I just stated Aleema's illusions are less potent because of their size, the grander your illusion the less real it seems, all of her personal illusions were enormous in magnitude and thus had a lesser effect, but this was because she was trying to trick an entire navy, not one person.

 

Also Aleema Keto wasn't the one using illusions directly on his mind, the Death Witches were, I have the series right here, Satal uses the Death Witches and torture to either drive him mad or turn him, Aleema didnt care which one, Satal ends up dead because of this and she tries to convince him that she had no part in, Ulic knew the truth and sent her to her death for her trouble.

 

Simply put he has faced and witnessed illusions born of sorcery before and dealt with them adequately enough.

 

We have gone back and forth on this, it is time Aurbere made his decision, we can keep arguing but it will simply go round in circles.

Well if we are talking about not even the best of the Krath, then I'm sure their abilities are dwarfed in comparison with a powerful Sith Lord. I can't imagine their illusions would even begin to compare to Zannah's.

 

But yes, let's leave the effectiveness of Zannah's illusions up to Aurbere to decide. But really if we accept that Bane is stronger than Ulic, then Ulic really doesn't stand a chance against such potent sorcery.

[LadyKulvax]

Well if we are talking about not even the best of the Krath, then I'm sure their abilities are dwarfed in comparison with a powerful Sith Lord. I can't imagine their illusions would even begin to compare to Zannah's.

 

But yes, let's leave the effectiveness of Zannah's illusions up to Aurbere to decide. But really if we accept that Bane is stronger than Ulic, then Ulic really doesn't stand a chance against such potent sorcery.

 

Singularly no, combined definitely, there were a LOT of them.

 

I do not agree with Bane being outright stronger, in the force Bane probably takes it, but willpower, I am not convinced, the only moment that Ulic ever had a lapse of will was when he struck down his brother but it should be noted, his brother used their bond heavily in their battle to try and convince him to turn back to the good side, this had the added effect of flooding Ulic with guilt and remorse when Ulic cut him down.

 

But nevermind, Aurbere you make the decision.

Edited September 11, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Simply put it is my opinion from having read both series with a keen eye that Ulic Qel-Droma would beat Zannah in a lightsaber duel, because the arena they are fight in works to his advantage, all the objects in that place would make for fine ammunition for him to use against Zannah and that big double bladed lightsaber is going to make moving difficult for her to say the least.

 

Ulic IS faster he is noted as being extremely fast with endless stamina, she is not noted for any feats of speed whatsoever, this works to his advantage greatly.

 

Combine his ability to use the environment against her and greater feats of speed (literally so fast that the army he was facing couldnt land a blow on him, until his allies started getting overwhelmed and he pulled back) and it makes Zannah's ability to keep him off of her a nightmare for her, all Ulic needs to take her out is that nice big target of a hilt and she is mincemeat, with a double-bladed lightsaber she may be quite able to hold him off, single blade? she's dead, if not dead then she whilst she recovers from her broken weapon, she is once again getting stuff thrown right into her face, making her ability to recover minimal.

 

This is where the physique comes in, she has proven to be rather frail when it comes to injuries, Ulic is a freaking beast, one blow and she is nursing a wound, these types of disadvantages she really cannot afford to concede, Ulic can take injuries and easily, this difference would prove integral in an area where heavy objects are getting thrown at and about her willy nilly.

 

In my opinion the arena works directly into Qel-Droma's advantage and gives him the win in a lightsaber duel.

Fortunately she doesn't need to win the duel, as a Soresu wielder the intention of a lightsaber duel for her to simply hold off her opponent. And given that Zannah has done this successfully against a mirror image of Ulic then I see no reason why she can't do it again.

 

I'd also point out that Zannah's "big' double-bladed lightsaber has never made it difficult for her to move before. And there is plenty of space in the open design of the Great Jedi Library. Indeed it didn't seem to hinder her in the narrow halls of the Stone Prison, or in the confined space of the fortress on Tython. Her lightsaber has never been noted to hinder her in any manner, and to assume it would is pure speculation. The increased surface area will simply make it much much easier for her to deflect Ulic's attacks with a spinning saber ward etc. much like how it was easy for Maul to hold of Kenobi and Jinn, and he wasn't even using Soresu.

 

Also we cannot assume that just because Ulic has telekinetic abilities, that he will use them, he is primarily a lightsaber duelist and I don't think has ever used telekinesis in the midst of a lightsaber duel. Nor does it suit his style, I doubt he is going to break off to attack Zannah and if he does, it will only help her. She is more than capable of shielding herself from such attacks or slicing them apart with her saber, it will merely give her a moment of reprieve and a chance to retreat or build her sorcery attack.

 

If Zannah does suffer an injury or have her lightsaber cut in half? Then she'll likely resort to mental assaults immediately, which still has a strong chance of working. Given the struggle it took for such a strong and prepared mind as Bane's to resist. And even then she is not done. She can run from Ulic if need be then catch him unawares with an even more powerful attack.

[LadyKulvax]

Again we are going round in circles but I will make it as simple as this:

 

Bane did not have Ulic's advantage, that advantage being having dealt with exactly those types of illusions himself and the mental barriers still afford him increased willpower as it takes a strong mind to erect them in the first place, Bane never seemed to ever have the ability to protect his mind in any way at all, Ulic did.

 

Simply put even if the illusions he suffered through were not as powerful as Zannah's, he still has a LOT of experience with them and that is an obvious advantage, combine this with his very strong willpower and I just dont see how Zannah's illusions will have so much of an effect on him, we know as a matter of fact that any force user who has dealt with illusions before, will have the advantage of experience against them in future encounters, we have seen it before, Ulic will have said advantage, Bane never has.

[Beniboybling]

Singularly no, combined definitely, there were a LOT of them.

 

I do not agree with Bane being outright stronger, in the force Bane probably takes it, but willpower, I am not convinced, the only moment that Ulic ever had a lapse of will was when he struck down his brother but it should be noted, his brother used their bond heavily in their battle to try and convince him to turn back to the good side, this had the added effect of flooding Ulic with guilt and remorse when Ulic cut him down.

Not even combined, Zannah as a child is more powerful than a single dark side adept. I mean how many are we talking here, a dozen? More? Also noting that more does not mean better, in the end none of them have Zannah's capabilities so all they can really do is conjure more snakes and spiders etc. If it really had been as potent as Zannah's attacks then Keto's intention would have been to kill him, not to turn him or control him. It was a killing power.

 

In terms of willpower, Bane has not had a single lapse. Even when confronted by his worst fears while being assaulted by a blindling painful sorcery attack he persevered. He killed without remorse and completely embraced the dark side, if he had a brother, he would have killed him just as cold-heartedly. It may have given him pause, but he would have done it. And no way in hell would he ever have been turned to the light.

 

On the other hand Ulic has been tricked by illusions, overwhelmed by grief and remorse and does have the Force power, preparation or warning Bane had, all vital when combating Zannah's attacks. Ulic has a very conflicting personality, he has ties to the Jedi and he has regrets and loved ones. Things that could be used against him.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Again we are going round in circles but I will make it as simple as this:

 

Bane did not have Ulic's advantage, that advantage being having dealt with exactly those types of illusions himself and the mental barriers still afford him increased willpower as it takes a strong mind to erect them in the first place, Bane never seemed to ever have the ability to protect his mind in any way at all, Ulic did.

 

Simply put even if the illusions he suffered through were not as powerful as Zannah's, he still has a LOT of experience with them and that is an obvious advantage, combine this with his very strong willpower and I just dont see how Zannah's illusions will have so much of an effect on him, we know as a matter of fact that any force user who has dealt with illusions before, will have the advantage of experience against them in future encounters, we have seen it before, Ulic will have said advantage, Bane never has.

Every trained Force user has the abilty to protect ones mind. Its absurd to believe that Bane would not do everything he could to make his mind an iron prison knowing that without a doubt one day Zannah's mental assaults would be turned against him. Ulic may have experience, but not on anything on the scale of Zannah's power. I'm sure Bane had powerful mental shields as well, the power of said shields determined by his personal Force power, that is greater than Ulic's.

 

However what is most important is the element of surprise, caught of guard by such a powerful mental attack and Ulic is going to be in trouble, unlike Bane who was able to steel his mind before the attack came. And if all goes Zannah's way, the attack will be even more powerful. And if it fails... rinse and repeat. His mind will slowly weaken.

 

One can have experience of a sword wound to the chest and don some armor, but if that armor ain't good enough, it just ain't good enough. There is no special means by which one can resist such attacks, its all about mental strength.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

You missed the point where i specifically stated that his brother was actively using their bond against him to turn him back to the light, very little you can do about that, he was basically forced into having his will barriers torn down and allowing remorse, etc... into his mind, it wasnt self-induced.

 

Also the Death Witches were the priestesses of the Krath Cult all capable of using illusions, they were more likely in the hundreds by the time the Krath were erecting Sith Temples everywhere, i'd look at the panels for guidance but they are awful for making canonical judgements and usually not even coherent, i would hazard a guess at all 'three dozens' that were there at the time, that is still extremely potent and would still give Ulic excellent experience with Illusions, no matter how powerful you judge them to be.

 

They were more than just little Dark Side adepts they were the fulfilment of Freedon Nadd's uprising and used ancient Sith teachings and techniques themselves to gain their power and mastery over sorcery.

 

Simply put Ulic has more than enough experience with illusions to handle them another time, one strong attack is no match for weeks long mental torture and illusions that got worse and worse as time wore on.

 

The Illusions they summoned were noted to be 'as powerful as those of Naga Sadow' according to the ancient Jedi of the time, yeh, don't see how that is weak AT ALL.

Edited September 11, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

But yes, let's leave the effectiveness of Zannah's illusions up to Aurbere to decide. But really if we accept that Bane is stronger than Ulic, then Ulic really doesn't stand a chance against such potent sorcery.

 

But nevermind, Aurbere you make the decision.

 

Very well. I think I will leave the judgment on the effectiveness of the illusions to the final decision.

[LadyKulvax]

Very well. I think I will leave the judgment on the effectiveness of the illusions to the final decision.

 

We aren't exactly getting anywhere, though I have found a little gem that equates the Krath Cult's illusions to Naga Sadow's.

 

You may as well make the final decision now and let us move on to the next battlezone.

Edited September 11, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

We aren't exactly getting anywhere, though I have found a little gem that equates the Krath Cult's illusions to Naga Sadow's.

 

You may as well make the final decision now and let us move on to the next battlezone.

 

Alright, give me an hour or two.

[Beniboybling]

You missed the point where i specifically stated that his brother was actively using their bond against him to turn him back to the light, very little you can do about that, he was basically forced into having his will barriers torn down and allowing remorse, etc... into his mind, it wasnt self-induced.

 

Also the Death Witches were the priestesses of the Krath Cult all capable of using illusions, they were more likely in the hundreds by the time the Krath were erecting Sith Temples everywhere, i'd look at the panels for guidance but they are awful for making canonical judgements and usually not even coherent, i would hazard a guess at all 'three dozens' that were there at the time, that is still extremely potent and would still give Ulic excellent experience with Illusions, no matter how powerful you judge them to be.

 

They were more than just little Dark Side adepts they were the fulfilment of Freedon Nadd's uprising and used ancient Sith teachings and techniques themselves to gain their power and mastery over sorcery.

 

Simply put Ulic has more than enough experience with illusions to handle them another time, one strong attack is no match for weeks long mental torture and illusions that got worse and worse as time wore on.

 

The Illusions they summoned were noted to be 'as powerful as those of Naga Sadow' according to the ancient Jedi of the time, yeh, don't see how that is weak AT ALL.

If it is the case that Ulic's brother exploited his bond in such a way, then Zannah's attack will do just the same. She'll draw on those feelings of grief and remorse to overwhelm him and break through his barriers, which is why the attack is so potent. It is this mental weaknesses that Zannah will exploit and use against him with devastating effect.

 

Now I find it very hard to believe that their were 36 Death Witches all crammed into one room assaulting Ulic's mind, that seems overkill and gross exaggeration, especially given the fact that Wookiee doesn't make a single mention of Death Witches, nor are Death Witches said to make an appearance in the comics. And again, experience is entirely obsolete. There is no specific means by which such illusions can be resisted, its just pure strength of will.

 

Again the armor analogy, if you have experience being wounded, that isn't going to make the armor you don any stronger. Experience would only prompt Ulic to strengthen his mental will, which I accept. But it was knowledge that prompted Bane to strengthen his own, yet Bane, as a more powerful Force user, and no mental weaknesses to speak of, likely had a stronger will, or rather better armor.

 

And even if we accept that Ulic is even close to Bane's power, this time Zannah's going to be using a battleaxe instead of a sword, or alternatively keep hacking away at his mental defenses until he breaks.

 

P.S. Naga Sadow's illusions were nowhere near as potent as Zannah's - he may very well have been capable of greater products of Sith Sorcery, but clearly not able to project them across the galaxy.

[Beniboybling]

We aren't exactly getting anywhere, though I have found a little gem that equates the Krath Cult's illusions to Naga Sadow's.

 

You may as well make the final decision now and let us move on to the next battlezone.

Not exactly a find, as a direct cross-comparison would tell us the same thing. Naga Sadow could great illusions of big battleships just like Keto, though if I recall correctly Sadow's illusions could cause physical harm, while Keto's could not.

 

But its all moot anyway, experience does not make you any more resistant to dark side attacks.

[Beniboybling]

Alright, give me an hour or two.

I would give a scenario, but in reality I see this fight panning out almost identically to the fight between Bane and Zannah as Ulic has an almost identical skill set.

 

Except this time Zannah won't fall and her Sith Sorcery will be performed at full power. Tearing Ulic's mind to shreds. Even with a strong will close to that of Bane's, he won't be able to resist an even more powerful assault.

[LadyKulvax]

Beni we get your opinion, forcing the point on him wont make any leeway, would you like me to continue going in circles with you or should we stop wasting our collective time?

[Beniboybling]

Beni we get your opinion, forcing the point on him wont make any leeway, would you like me to continue going in circles with you or should we stop wasting our collective time?

Debate at waste of time? Never! But if you feel we've reached an impasse then very well.

 

I leave the decision in your hands Aurbere, either way Darth Traya wins...