The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 13: Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Darth Zannah

[LadyKulvax]

I think Ulic's duelling capabilities are being rather under-rated, he was a master Form V duellist and was listed as being 'Incredibly fast' it should be noted also, that he is considered the best Duellist in the Jedi Order before he leaves, he is very very good and is much more skilled than the brute that Zannah openly admits would beat her down, in the five on two battle, she had to use the padawan to slow him down and force the Knight to relent upon his pressure.

 

Let us not forget that he duelled (albeit briefly) a pre-prime Exar Kun, whom as has been noted was still the best by far in the galaxy, only Ulic's speed and natural mastery allowed him to fend off Kun and even go on the offensive.

 

His duelling ability is even more impressive after losing his connection with the Force, even with the loss of the Force, he still not only defeats another powerful fallen Jedi but still regains some form of battle precognition, enabling him to sense his opponents attacks before they make them.

 

He was even more deadly as a Sith Lord, because he was quite adept at channelling his rage but he did it very effectively, greatly multiplied his stamina, endurance and strength.

 

Whilst Zannah's sorcery is impressive, it is surprisingly rarely used at all, she favours the mind games over the far more practical offensive attacks she can muster, but it seems there is reason for this, the most powerful ability she ever displayed was only possible when she drew heavily on Lake Natth, whilst this display pretty much left Bane in the fetal position until he fell back on Essence Transfer, it was only ever done that one time and nothing even close to as powerful was seen before or after from her.

Her most powerful abilities simply aren't applicable unless she finds some kind of immensely powerful Dark Side Nexi/Well to draw upon.

 

Now Ulic's mental capabilities are being very sharply driven down, as he is noted as being able to use the Light Side to defend his mind against telepathic attacks, as a Sith Lord this was very very greatly boosted and he was known as the 'iron willed' by Exar Kun himself.

 

Where the Force comes in, Ulic Qel-Droma was something of a wrecking ball with Telekinesis, his Telekinetic attacks were nothing like refined mastery but their sheer power easily made up for this lack of focus, he was able to channel his rage into very powerful telekinetic waves or direct force pushes, when he started to grow notably in power as a Sith Lord, he absolutely loved Force Choke and he was very effective with it, overall though Ulic did prefer outright Lightsaber attacks, mirroring his own master Exar Kun, but when engagements got heavy that is when he laid the smackdown with the force and telekinetically beat the holy hell out of opponents.

 

Ulic Qel-Droma wins as I don't see how Zannah is going to be able to use her favoured abilities in mental attacks and there is nothing in their area that would give her anywhere near as much power to draw upon as Lake Natth, her force powers are basically nullified here, it's going to come down to her Soresu Mastery and some force abilities vs Ulic's Form V mastery, 'super human' physical abilities and his 'let's blow everything the **** up' Force attacks.

Edited September 11, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

There you are, Rayla!

 

Edit: And I can't help but agree with you.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Aurbere

[LadyKulvax]

There you are, Rayla!

 

Edit: And I can't help but agree with you.

 

My sub ran out and food takes priority, but I'm back now.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Crap I suppose I did forget about that bit with Zannah and her sorcery being amplified(well that and my knowledge is meh about her). << Taking note of that, then yeah I could see Ulic winning this fully now rather than just a saber duel.

 

Me thinks though it is time to call this one then.

 

Also wb Ralya.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

My sub ran out and food takes priority, but I'm back now.

 

Well, can't blame that. I fully understand. Welcome back, though.

[sell-dog]

he is very very good and is much more skilled than the brute that Zannah openly admits would beat her down, in the five on two battle, she had to use the padawan to slow him down and force the Knight to relent upon his pressure.

 

He was even more deadly as a Sith Lord, because he was quite adept at channelling his rage but he did it very effectively, greatly multiplied his stamina, endurance and strength.

 

Whilst Zannah's sorcery is impressive, it is surprisingly rarely used at all, she favours the mind games over the far more practical offensive attacks she can muster, but it seems there is reason for this, the most powerful ability she ever displayed was only possible when she drew heavily on Lake Natth, whilst this display pretty much left Bane in the fetal position until he fell back on Essence Transfer, it was only ever done that one time and nothing even close to as powerful was seen before or after from her.

Her most powerful abilities simply aren't applicable unless she finds some kind of immensely powerful Dark Side Nexi/Well to draw upon.

 

Now Ulic's mental capabilities are being very sharply driven down, as he is noted as being able to use the Light Side to defend his mind against telepathic attacks, as a Sith Lord this was very very greatly boosted and he was known as the 'iron willed' by Exar Kun himself.

 

Where the Force comes in, Ulic Qel-Droma was something of a wrecking ball with Telekinesis, his Telekinetic attacks were nothing like refined mastery but their sheer power easily made up for this lack of focus, he was able to channel his rage into very powerful telekinetic waves or direct force pushes, when he started to grow notably in power as a Sith Lord, he absolutely loved Force Choke and he was very effective with it, overall though Ulic did prefer outright Lightsaber attacks, mirroring his own master Exar Kun, but when engagements got heavy that is when he laid the smackdown with the force and telekinetically beat the holy hell out of opponents.

 

Ulic Qel-Droma wins as I don't see how Zannah is going to be able to use her favoured abilities in mental attacks and there is nothing in their area that would give her anywhere near as much power to draw upon as Lake Natth, her force powers are basically nullified here, it's going to come down to her Soresu Mastery and some force abilities vs Ulic's Form V mastery, 'super human' physical abilities and his 'let's blow everything the **** up' Force attacks.

 

First that brute Jedi with the scrub Knight (yes he was Knight also, just focused on diplomacy) was in Rule of Two ie 10 years before the Zannah with the abilities we are supposed to be considering here so I don't know if we can hold that against her. Second that big guy was being bolstered by a master's battle meditation. In the duel against Bane I think it is reasonable to say that Bane was also drawing on the nexus to boost his initial onslaught at the very least. The novel doesn't explicitly say he was, but it also doesn't say he wasn't. Bane was well aware of the nexus and power of the Dark Side that Ambria was (says explicitly in Path of Destruction) and I think it's highly unlikely that with all of Bane's cunning and intelligence he would not have tried to use this inherit power to his advantage.

 

Before I continue, I will address the response that is sure to come regarding my reasoning of Bane's mutual drawing on the nexus. I am using a similar reasoning others used in the Kas'im Duro duel. Nowhere is it stated that Hapes Fountain Palace has a garden, but no source states that there is not a garden and thus it became reasonable to assume there was a garden and that garden played a critical role in the duel. Nowhere does it state that Bane was or was not drawing on the nexus, but due to reasoning in previous paragraph it is logical to say that he was drawing on the nexus as well.

 

That means that Zannah's saber shield was able to hold off the power onslaught of two power duelist while they had the powers boosted (the one with the Jedi shouldn't really be considered as it's pre-prime Zannah but let's keep it for the sake of argument). Now I know the novels state that she was having some troubles holding the defense, but at the end of the day the defense did NOT break and that's all that really matters. Then Bane switches to a speedy and unpredictable style (probably still drawing on the nexus) and he wasn't able to break the defense either. Call me stubborn but I see no way that Qel-Droma, who will not have his powers boosted by the environment, is going to break her defense.

 

Now to other force powers and I will not address the tendrils as they will not apply. By the time of Zannah's prime she could be attacking her opponents mind in an instant and not having to do a 1 second hand maneuver like she had to in Rule of Two. Zannah must have a strong Force Barrier as Bane did not try to break it in their duel (as he has done to others in Path of Destruction and Bane > Qel-Droma (per the REAL Sith rankings as it has been stated here that his prime was as a Sith)) so Qel-Droma's Force Choke does not apply. No matter how good Qel-Droma is with Telekinesis it will take him longer to manage a respectable attempt at Zannah than it will take for Zannah to instantly (or simultaneously with her naturally heightened precognition) attack his mind. Kun said Ulic was strong willed yes but I think he's talking about his stubbornness and possibly arrogance as Aurbure said in the description. Kun is not saying that Qel-Droma is emotionally stable as he clearly is not. When Qel- Droma killed his brother he had a complete emotional breakdown and was out of the game for some time. If Zannah attacks his mind and brings out his biggest fears, what will Qel-Droma see? I'm gonna guess, and probably be right, that it will be something related to his murdering of his brother.

 

Take Set Harth for example. I know Q-D > Harth but we must give Harth a little credit as the Jedi of that time considered him to be the most dangerous person in the galaxy as they didn't know about Bane and Zannah. Harth, a fallen Jedi like Q-D, had no idea what was coming when Zannah attacked his mind and it took him 2 days to recover. Obviously it won't take Q-D 2 days to recover but all Zannah will need is a couple seconds. The only person that broke Zannah's mind assault was Bane who know how to defend against it, was a true Sith, and also as previously mentioned probably had his powers boosted by the nexus. All Zannah's fights she incorporates her sorcery to a degree so I'm not sure why you're saying it is rarely used at all. Given Q-D emotional reactions to the death of his brother and the fact that Zannah can assault his mind in the blink of eye while defending attacks (as she's done twice in her prime against Harth and Bane) to me it is Zannah who will be winning this one.

 

That is a record for longest post I've ever made welcome any and all reactions.

 

Side-note (and maybe I shouldn't say this) but I refuse to let the characters from the Bane trilogy go 0-3 without a fight! Especially when I plan to name my future hypothetical dog "Zannah"

Edited September 11, 2013 by sell-dog

[LadyKulvax]

You have missed the fact that he was noted to have the ability to block his mind from telepathic assaults, which greatly enhanced as a Sith Lord, meaning he had exceptional defences against mental attacks, this instantaneously makes Zannah's force abilities far less applicable and almost a waste of time.

 

Also it would be hard to show him flashbacks of his murdering his Brother when he hadn't done it yet, Ulic here is taken as a Sith Lord, not the repentant force-stripped Ulic from when he did kill his brother.

 

And having just read Rule of Two it clearly states if it wasn't for the noob interrupting the brute's onslaught she would have gone down, no questions about it, she actively used the other Jedi against his ally, she was saved by the foolhardiness of the Jedi, not her own Soresu defence, if she had trouble against this brute she is going to have trouble with one of the best duellists in the entire Old Sith Wars, he was a master Form V duellist and was incredibly fast, he was noted among all the Jedi at that time as the clear superior amongst them all.

 

Her Force Barriers have never been noted as anything exceptional, yet Ulic's telekinesis and Force Choke attacks were said to be exceptional and very powerful, he had no qualms about wrecking everything in his path.

 

Ulic's Djem-So mastery beats Zannah's high proficiency with Soresu, Ulic is noted as one of the best of the entire era and he didnt even need a connection to the force to still beat the hell out of another Fallen Jedi which is very telling of his abilities and points to a natural mastery over the form.

 

As far as physical prowess goes, this is not even a contest, Ulic has an extremely high threshold for pain, as seen when he shrugged off torturing devices, his stamina was almost unlimited with his power in the Dark Side, his strength was immense even without his dark side bolstering and his endurance was noted as endless even before his turn to the dark side as seen when he and Nomi Sunrider held off an entire army together for three nights.

 

He and Kun are seen as by far the worst fallen Jedi in the Order's history, their names were infamous long after the houses that bore them were ancient history, they were seen as the very start to the Old Sith Wars and the reason for why the Order declined so rapidly and lost so much, even the Sith Emperor's empire noted their accomplishes despite them being obvious rivals and clear insults to the Emperor's rule from Marka Ragnos and his ilk.

 

Ulic Qel-Droma is the better duellist and his force abilities are the only ones that seem applicable here, Zannah's favoured abilities against the Mind most likely wont have any effect, Ulic can easily outlast her, she has no greatly empowering places or items to draw from to unleash her most powerful ability and all she can do is hope to tire him out with a Soresu defence, Ulic however is noted for his stamina and endurance and if anyone tires out it will be Zannah.

 

-----------------------------

 

It is a shame really because Zannah is one of my favourite characters, she is not Z**** powerful but she is very very interesting, however I refuse to allow Ulic Qel-Droma to be under-rated so badly, it is high time he gets the credit he deserves.

[konstadinosblue]

Aurb, are you making you're desicion soon, or should I step up to defend my Dark Lady?

[Beniboybling]

Nice to see you back Rayla!

 

Anyway, I'm still confident that Zannah would win.

 

Sell-dog brings up some good points but I'd like to add to that. Firstly in terms of sorcery, I'd like to make clear that Zannah's mental attacks were a product of sorcery and were not in anyway amplified by Lake Nath - at all. So Zannah's Force abilities are very much on the cards, and will be key to her victory.

 

And I think we have strong reasons to believe that Ulic will succumb to Zannah's mental attack:

 

 

1. Despite having an 'iron will' (which is an interpretable statement to say the least) Ulic clearly never fully embraced the dark side, physically and mentally weakened when he killed his brother which in turn made him susceptible to attack from Nomi. Dredging up his worst fears will place him in a similar position.
    
    
   
2. Ulic never learned to distinguish illusions from real life, and the first step toward overcoming such an attack is recognizing that the illusions are not real, only then does strength of will come into play.
    
    
   
3. Bane is a demonstrably more powerful Force user than Ulic, will arguably a much stronger will. And yet he had trouble resisting one of Zannah's instant attacks, if Zannah had had time to prepare he would have been torn apart - and Zannah knew it. If Zannah has time to prepare in this duel, Ulic will fare no better.
    
    
   
4. Ulic will be completely unprepared for the attack. When Zannah used her magic against Bane he was aware of the imminent attack and steeled his mind, he was also aware of how to counter it (and knowledge helped him realise the illusions were not real.) Ulic has none of these advantages, he will be caught completely off-guard as as such unable to erect a proper defense, by the time he realizes what's happening it will be too late.
   

 

So in reality, once Zannah zaps him with magic its pretty much over. Their is a small possibility that he will be able to resist an off-the-bat attack, but lets remember that before her prime Jedi Knight Sarro Xaj was utterly devastated by such a move. Against a charged attack Ulic stands no chance at all. Also noting she can use a less powerful variant as a distraction and then close in and finish him off while he is occupied, much like she did against Xaj.

 

It is therefore a question of whether Ulic can overwhelm Zannah before she can to attack. And despite Ulic's skills I don't believe he can. Sell-dog is correct to point out that her duel with Xaj (who was empowered by Battle Meditation) was 10 years before her prime, and in her prime she fared much better against Bane - a stronger and more skilled duelist, and arguably stronger and more skilled duelist than Ulic himself.

 

And yet we note the following from the duel:

 

...Bane pressed the action with a devastating, complex combination of attacks, but Zannah was able to intercept, parry, or deflect each one. Her defensive style was simple, but performed correctly it was nearly impenetrable.

 

Recognising this, Bane backed off and changed tactics. Instead of a savage, relentless pressure meant to overwhelm her, he settled into a pattern of feints and quick thrusts, probing and prodding her defenses in search of a weakness as the two settled in for a long battle of attrition.

 

Zannah can handle power duelists just fine.

 

In terms of Force abilities, I don't see much evidence of Ulic using telekinetic attacks in combat at all liberally. Though regardless they are going to have little effect on a powerful Force wielder such as Zannah. She can simply throw up a Force shield to absorb and expel the impact. Futhermore Ulic is going to be pushing the offensive, in order to use such power he'd have to break away from the battle which would only give Zannah an opportunity to attack with sorcery.

 

And of course, if Zannah is overwhelmed she can use her acrobatics to extract herself from the situation and then cloak herself in the Force. Then simply retreat and recuperate before luring Ulic into a deadly trap.

 

Altogether, there is no way Ulic can win. His onslaught is not skilled or powerful enough to break through Zannah's defense and as he attempts to Zannah will be building up a devastating mental attack which will tear his mind apart.

[Beniboybling]

recover. Obviously it won't take Q-D 2 days to recover but all Zannah will need is a couple seconds.

He'll need more than two days to recover, he'll be dead!

[Beniboybling]

You have missed the fact that he was noted to have the ability to block his mind from telepathic assaults, which greatly enhanced as a Sith Lord, meaning he had exceptional defences against mental attacks, this instantaneously makes Zannah's force abilities far less applicable and almost a waste of time.

Mind tricks =/= Sith Sorcery.

 

This is not simply a standard application of Force fear. As we see with all aspects of Sith Sorcery the are incredibly difficult to defend against. And it is explicitly stated in Dynasty of Evil that the only way to defend against Zannah's sorcery is through sheer strength of will. No barriers, no blocks, nothing so conventional. No Force user has said to be able to resist Summon Fear, even Bane had his fears made manifest. Ulic will be the same.

 

This is also making the assumption that Ulic is more powerful than Zannah. And given that Zannah was able to pulverize flesh and kill Jedi instantaneously at an extremely young age, I'd say he is not. Henceforth with a deal of preparation, Zannah is capable of breaking through any barriers Ulic may be capable of raising.

[konstadinosblue]

Nice to see you back Rayla!

 

Anyway, I'm still confident that Zannah would win.

 

Sell-dog brings up some good points but I'd like to add to that. Firstly in terms of sorcery, I'd like to make clear that Zannah's mental attacks were a product of sorcery and were not in anyway amplified by Lake Nath - at all. So Zannah's Force abilities are very much on the cards, and will be key to her victory.

 

And I think we have strong reasons to believe that Ulic will succumb to Zannah's mental attack:

 

 

1. Despite having an 'iron will' (which is an interpretable statement to say the least) Ulic clearly never fully embraced the dark side, physically and mentally weakened when he killed his brother which in turn made him susceptible to attack from Nomi. Dredging up his worst fears will place him in a similar position.
    
    
   
2. Ulic never learned to distinguish illusions from real life, and the first step toward overcoming such an attack is recognizing that the illusions are not real, only then does strength of will come into play.
    
    
   
3. Bane is a demonstrably more powerful Force user than Ulic, will arguably a much stronger will. And yet he had trouble resisting one of Zannah's instant attacks, if Zannah had had time to prepare he would have been torn apart - and Zannah knew it. If Zannah has time to prepare in this duel, Ulic will fare no better.
    
    
   
4. Ulic will be completely unprepared for the attack. When Zannah used her magic against Bane he was aware of the imminent attack and steeled his mind, he was also aware of how to counter it (and knowledge helped him realise the illusions were not real.) Ulic has none of these advantages, he will be caught completely off-guard as as such unable to erect a proper defense, by the time he realizes what's happening it will be too late.
   

 

So in reality, once Zannah zaps him with magic its pretty much over. Their is a small possibility that he will be able to resist an off-the-bat attack, but lets remember that before her prime Jedi Knight Sarro Xaj was utterly devastated by such a move. Against a charged attack Ulic stands no chance at all. Also noting she can use a less powerful variant as a distraction and then close in and finish him off while he is occupied, much like she did against Xaj.

 

It is therefore a question of whether Ulic can overwhelm Zannah before she can to attack. And despite Ulic's skills I don't believe he can. Sell-dog is correct to point out that her duel with Xaj (who was empowered by Battle Meditation) was 10 years before her prime, and in her prime she fared much better against Bane - a stronger and more skilled duelist, and arguably stronger and more skilled duelist than Ulic himself.

 

And yet we note the following from the duel:

 

...Bane pressed the action with a devastating, complex combination of attacks, but Zannah was able to intercept, parry, or deflect each one. Her defensive style was simple, but performed correctly it was nearly impenetrable.

 

Recognising this, Bane backed off and changed tactics. Instead of a savage, relentless pressure meant to overwhelm her, he settled into a pattern of feints and quick thrusts, probing and prodding her defenses in search of a weakness as the two settled in for a long battle of attrition.

 

Zannah can handle power duelists just fine.

 

In terms of Force abilities, I don't see much evidence of Ulic using telekinetic attacks in combat at all liberally. Though regardless they are going to have little effect on a powerful Force wielder such as Zannah. She can simply throw up a Force shield to absorb and expel the impact. Futhermore Ulic is going to be pushing the offensive, in order to use such power he'd have to break away from the battle which would only give Zannah an opportunity to attack with sorcery.

 

And of course, if Zannah is overwhelmed she can use her acrobatics to extract herself from the situation and then cloak herself in the Force. Then simply retreat and recuperate before luring Ulic into a deadly trap.

 

Altogether, there is no way Ulic can win. His onslaught is not skilled or powerful enough to break through Zannah's defense and as he attempts to Zannah will be building up a devastating mental attack which will tear his mind apart.

 

Ok, I guess we doing just fine.....Let me lend a hand in anyway I can.....

[Aurbere]

Aurb, are you making you're desicion soon, or should I step up to defend my Dark Lady?

 

I'm not sure yet.

[Aurbere]

I'm not sure if this would have any bearing on the debate, but Ulic did have a 'close' relationship with a Sorceress. And has been witness to acts of Sorcery several times over, as well as having the mental ability to resist Warb Null's Aura of Dread.

[LadyKulvax]

Ulic Qel-Droma faced down a far superior duellist than Bane, Exar Kun. Exar Kun even before his prime was way beyond anyone else yet Ulic was a match for him, Ulic managed to face arguably the best duellist in the entirety of the Old Republic era until the last decades of the Golden Age of the Jedi, simply put if he can take on Exar Kun he can more than take on Darth Zannah.

 

It should be noted that he is not some brute force duellist whatsoever, he is an exceptionally fast duellist and a master of Djem-So, simply put his technique does not make him slow, it just makes him a lot deadlier.

 

His physical abilities still give him a large advantage because he is much faster and stronger than she is, she can't escape all that well when she can't even out-run her pursuer.

 

It should also be noted that Ulic suffered through the Naddist Uprising and took on the sorcery of the Krath cult, he faced both torture and mental assaults, some of them sorcery based, he has faced Zannah's pet favourite ability before, he didn't cave then, he only went and got more powerful by going fully Dark Side, so he is hardly helpless against Sith Sorcery.

 

He has not only experienced similar, if not the same thing before and managed to overcome the attacks, once again telepathic attacks are not just mind tricks or mind control, it is any mental assault, Ulic learnt how to defend against such things with the light side, he then got even more powerful started to build mental walls and then started to use Mind Control himself, so not only is he highly proficient against telepathic attacks, he has also faced off against sorcery based mental assaults whilst being tortured.

 

Illusions are a whole other practice but she requires concentration to do so, if Ulic knows he is facing a Sith, has seen exactly the same type of sorcery used against him and his managed to pull through the encounter, Zannah's illusions are going to be much less effective against him and she may wall be killed by him charging, or being Force Choked out of her concentration or if she is really unlucky, she gets telekinetically beaten the arse off of her.

[sell-dog]

Also it would be hard to show him flashbacks of his murdering his Brother when he hadn't done it yet, Ulic here is taken as a Sith Lord, not the repentant force-stripped Ulic from when he did kill his brother.

 

And having just read Rule of Two it clearly states if it wasn't for the noob interrupting the brute's onslaught she would have gone down, no questions about it, she actively used the other Jedi against his ally, she was saved by the foolhardiness of the Jedi, not her own Soresu defence, if she had trouble against this brute she is going to have trouble with one of the best duellists in the entire Old Sith Wars, he was a master Form V duellist and was incredibly fast, he was noted among all the Jedi at that time as the clear superior amongst them all.

 

Her Force Barriers have never been noted as anything exceptional, yet Ulic's telekinesis and Force Choke attacks were said to be exceptional and very powerful, he had no qualms about wrecking everything in his path.

 

As far as physical prowess goes, this is not even a contest, Ulic has an extremely high threshold for pain, as seen when he shrugged off torturing devices, his stamina was almost unlimited with his power in the Dark Side, his strength was immense even without his dark side bolstering and his endurance was noted as endless even before his turn to the dark side as seen when he and Nomi Sunrider held off an entire army together for three nights.

 

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Everything Beni has said I clearly agree with and will not reinforce his comments for the sake of time. I will address the paragraphs I quoted sequentially.

 

1. You're right about considering Q-D in his prime and thus he wouldn't see his brother. However his later emotional breakdown when the murder occurs suggests a lack in emotional stability (after all he is calling upon the Dark Side) and also shows the problems of fallen Jedi vs true Sith. Bane & Zannah preached that once you are Sith you are to shred your former life behind. Bane didn't recognize his fellow trooper years later and Zannah felt no remorse over driving her cousin insane to his death. It also speaks to fallen Jedi not having countered their true fears as well as a true Sith has. Q-D being not a true Sith I think will allow Zannah's mind attacks to be more effective than you state but certainly just a difference of opinions and unlikely we will completely agree on it.

 

2. Having read it recently as well I know what the book states. The noob then goes to assist the others vs Bane etc. However while Zannah was having some trouble holding off just the brute (under battle mediation) she was holding him off and like I stated previously, at the end of the day her defense have NEVER been broken and that's all that matters.

 

Also, and I cannot stress this enough, you point out that we must consider Q-D in his prime so the murder of brother with mind assaults images does not apply. That duel with the brute was 10 years before Zannah's prime who is the Zannah who were supposed to be thinking about for this deal so it should not apply either. I feel that it's like if someone said on the REAL Jedi list that Luke isn't #1 because he lost to Vader in ESB.

 

3. Her Force Barriers haven't been stated as being exceptional but given the content in the novels we can assume they were. In Path of Destruction Bane breaks through a couple fellow Sith's Force Barriers to Force Choke them. In the final duel Bane never does this. Why doesn't he do this? Because he knows he can't so why waste the effort. That duel was about establishing the master. If Bane knew he could break her barrier, he would've done it to prove a point and minimize risk and then gone on his way with Cognus.

 

4. Q-D has a high threshold for pain yes that's true. We don't really know anything specific about Zannah's threshold for pain. Why is that? Because no one ever landed an attack on her. Also with all the infiltrating she was doing, no one realized what her intentions were thus torturing her etc etc. This complements what we already know about Zannah's cunning and defenses that we know nothing about her pain threshold as she was never in a situation to put it to the test. Thus while it is certainly fair to bring up Q-D's threshold for pain, I think it is unfair to then began to compare it with Zannah's.

 

 

 

Again I welcome any and all comments

[sell-dog]

Ulic Qel-Droma faced down a far superior duellist than Bane, Exar Kun. Exar Kun even before his prime was way beyond anyone else yet Ulic was a match for him, Ulic managed to face arguably the best duellist in the entirety of the Old Republic era until the last decades of the Golden Age of the Jedi, simply put if he can take on Exar Kun he can more than take on Darth Zannah.

 

It should be noted that he is not some brute force duellist whatsoever, he is an exceptionally fast duellist and a master of Djem-So, simply put his technique does not make him slow, it just makes him a lot deadlier.

 

His physical abilities still give him a large advantage because he is much faster and stronger than she is, she can't escape all that well when she can't even out-run her pursuer.

 

It should also be noted that Ulic suffered through the Naddist Uprising and took on the sorcery of the Krath cult, he faced both torture and mental assaults, some of them sorcery based, he has faced Zannah's pet favourite ability before, he didn't cave then, he only went and got more powerful by going fully Dark Side, so he is hardly helpless against Sith Sorcery.

 

He has not only experienced similar, if not the same thing before and managed to overcome the attacks, once again telepathic attacks are not just mind tricks or mind control, it is any mental assault, Ulic learnt how to defend against such things with the light side, he then got even more powerful started to build mental walls and then started to use Mind Control himself, so not only is he highly proficient against telepathic attacks, he has also faced off against sorcery based mental assaults whilst being tortured.

 

Illusions are a whole other practice but she requires concentration to do so, if Ulic knows he is facing a Sith, has seen exactly the same type of sorcery used against him and his managed to pull through the encounter, Zannah's illusions are going to be much less effective against him and she may wall be killed by him charging, or being Force Choked out of her concentration or if she is really unlucky, she gets telekinetically beaten the arse off of her.

 

Yes, but I feel that it is the user behind the ability that matters more than just the ability itself.

 

Zannah > anyone in the Krath cult. The only people better at sorcery in history than Zannah at that time are the Sith Emperor and Kun and then possibly Freedon Nadd and Naga Sadow. Given that Q-D never faced an assault from any of those guys (as you mention Kun and Q-D dueled and I don't remember other Force Powers coming into it) he'll be in for a surprise

[LadyKulvax]

Erm she has had blows dealt to her, many times over actually, you know like when Bane beat the crap out of her, with no lightsaber, by catching her by the hilt, or the time he grabs her by the throat and nearly strangles her to death? or how about the time he charges/force pushes her into the grave because her situational awareness is shockingly amateur, her defence is by no means perfect.

 

Also, the reason I take her duel from Rule of Two into consideration here is that she got to a certain level with lightsaber combat then spent ten years desperately searching for newer sorcery techniques, this mission ended with her finding the technique to summon Dark Side Tendrils and other constructions of Dark Side energy.

 

Also, you greatly underestimate the level of sorcery used by the Krath Cult, it was FAR above anything Zannah ever showed, the Krath summoned enormous and powerful illusions via their sorcery, they drove republic navy members mad in the thousands and Aleema Keto herself could summon the Force Blast a sorcery based assault of pure Dark Side energy, one of the most powerful displays of Sith sorcery, Zannah is not a better sorceress than the entire Krath cult nor Aleema Keto, whom has shown similar abilities as well as ones on a far larger scale and sorcery attacks on greater magnitudes than Zannah ever has.

[Beniboybling]

or how about the time he charges/force pushes her into the grave because her situational awareness is shockingly amateur, her defence is by no means perfect.

This is hardly the case, the grave scenario was a result of Zannah's concentration being split between Bane and her attack. And in all honesty was outside of her spacial awareness. On the other hand she was fully aware that Bane was attempting to push her back against the wall, a tactic she herself employed against Bane on Ambria. Also noting that Bane did not charge/Force push her into said grave, she merely tripped.

 

In fact the only defence that matters is the one she uses against Bane in their final duel, all confrontations prior to that had special circumstances working against her. And through the entirety of that duel Bane failed to penetrate her defense through lightsaber combat once, even when on the ground with Bane hacking and kicking at her and her vision blurred she still managed to parry his every strike.

 

Indeed it is vital that we take into account Zannah's progression as a duelist over the decades of her training, for by the time she seized the mantle she had become a highly skilled master of Soresu. And of course her use of the saberstaff increases her defensive capabilities tenfold. Darth Maul being the perfect example.

 

Essentially, even against a skilled duelist such as Qel-Droma, Zannah's form will be "nearly impentrable."

[Wolfninjajedi]

This is hardly the case, the grave scenario was a result of Zannah's concentration being split between Bane and her attack. And in all honesty was outside of her spacial awareness. On the other hand she was fully aware that Bane was attempting to push her back against the wall, a tactic she herself employed against Bane on Ambria. Also noting that Bane did not charge/Force push her into said grave, she merely tripped.

 

In fact the only defence that matters is the one she uses against Bane in their final duel, all confrontations prior to that had special circumstances working against her. And through the entirety of that duel Bane failed to penetrate her defense through lightsaber combat once, even when on the ground with Bane hacking and kicking at her and her vision blurred she still managed to parry his every strike.

 

Indeed it is vital that we take into account Zannah's progression as a duelist over the decades of her training, for by the time she seized the mantle she had become a highly skilled master of Soresu. And of course her use of the saberstaff increases her defensive capabilities tenfold. Darth Maul being the perfect example.

 

Essentially, even against a skilled duelist such as Qel-Droma, Zannah's form will be "nearly impentrable."

 

While Zannah does have the double bladed saber which would give her an edge against Ulic as he hasn't faced one before(IIFC), this doesn't mean that her defense won't be penetrated. The double bladed saber does have it's flaws too, IE: Limited movement, not being able to adjust posture, big target because of the hilt

 

If Zannah's saber is destroyed she is gonna be SOL.

[LadyKulvax]

Zannah's form was nearly impenetrable against the people she battled certainly, I'd like to see her attempt to duel Exar Kun and live to talk about it though, Ulic Qel-Droma doesn't just have mastery of his form working for him, he has intense speed even whilst using such a form, indeed he was noted as being super human even among the force users of his time, his stamina and endurance seemed to be endless which only enforced his speed, his strength was enormous and was channelled very effectively into his Djem-So, he duelled far more like Vader pre-Mustafar than closer to any other Form V specialists.

 

His natural ability as a lightsaber combatant is further proven when he has the force stripped from him and he still beats down a fallen Jedi, without any aid in the force, this guy is a physical powerhouse simply put and his natural instincts not force based instincts were on the levels of the best of the Echani.

 

Ulic Qel-Droma could defeat many multiples of enemies with ease(an army, along with his few allies) and this is way before his prime, he was later able to duel one of the best that ever lived on equal terms and though this is not prime Exar Kun he was still clearly above and beyond anyone else in his time, we have all spoken on how many leagues above Exar Kun was for his time and the fact that Ulic Qel-Droma was the only one that ever managed to match him in a straight up lightsaber duel speaks volumes for Qel-Droma.

 

Simply put whilst Zannah can maintain an impressive defence she cannot maintain it indefinitely, Ulic can maintain whatever he damn well wants, he is a physical powerhouse even without the Force, with the Force, well he can endure enormous amounts of torture and pain, he can move faster than Zannah easily and his strength is immense, he out-powered Warb Null who was a physical tank on Vader levels and it should be noted, was enhanced with and wore armour enhanced by Sith Magic and Sorceries.

 

Zannah can go on the defensive all she wants but she will tire, he will not, he can beat the snuffing out of her with telekinetic waves and direct assaults, her ability to perform her mental assaults and sorcery based illusions against him effectively are very questionable and if she does try it, it will most likely result in one thing, her own severe injury or even death, as I stated before, Ulic has gone through more than his fair share of illusions from arguably better sorcery practitioners and actively had mind blocks against such attacks put in place, simply put he has a strong enough will not to fall for the same thing twice (which we do see happening, the illusions directed against him he saw through easier every time they attempted it).

 

So if my assertion is correct it is basically down to Zannah's Soresu mastery vs Ulic's Djem-So mastery, vastly superior physique and telekinetic smackdowns.

[LadyKulvax]

While Zannah does have the double bladed saber which would give her an edge against Ulic as he hasn't faced one before(IIFC), this doesn't mean that her defense won't be penetrated. The double bladed saber does have it's flaws too, IE: Limited movement, not being able to adjust posture, big target because of the hilt

 

If Zannah's saber is destroyed she is gonna be SOL.

 

Sources are unclear on whether or not Exar Kun had his double-bladed lightsaber already when he faced Ulic, or should I say contradictory at best, but he certainly saw Exar Kun wield it firsthand.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Sources are unclear on whether or not Exar Kun had his double-bladed lightsaber already when he faced Ulic, or should I say contradictory at best, but he certainly saw Exar Kun wield it firsthand.

 

Eh I guess seeing it would help somewhat then.

[Aurbere]

I'm not sure if this would have any bearing on the debate, but Ulic did have a 'close' relationship with a Sorceress. And has been witness to acts of Sorcery several times over, as well as having the mental ability to resist Warb Null's Aura of Dread.

 

^Just pointing this out in case people missed it.

[LadyKulvax]

^Just pointing this out in case people missed it.

 

Yeh I included these details in my own posts, Ulic is not falling for the same thing twice and the illusions he did face were indicatively better than any of the ones Zannah used, Aleema Keto alone could summon enormous and very dangerous illusions herself.