Selenial Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 Gameplay purposes...and besides I never said that cannon fodder is absolutely useless against main characters, sure at times they may get in their few licks but for the most part they are outmatched most of the time. No. Not Gameplay. I'm not going to Ruin the Knight story, so i'll put this in spoiler tags. It's an act 3 spoiler, END of act 3, so careful. You have been warned. When facing against the Emperor the knights love interest is captured, the Emperor himself states that fighting the extra sith on the way to saving them will weaken the Knight for the battle with Vitiate, and Scourge warns this too, this implies they were somewhat a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) You know I am completely lost as to what we are talking about here...what exactly are we talking about here? Cannon Fodder vs Named Characters Or Cannon Fodder vs Cannon Fodder? I'm not going to Ruin the Knight story, so i'll put this in spoiler tags. It's an act 3 spoiler, END of act 3, so careful. You have been warned. Nah it's fine I have played through all the classes, but that is just a quote....and do we know the specifics of what happened? Again...they can get their licks in at times, but they aren't gonna beat the character. Edited September 9, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) And yet Sith Warriors, un named Sith Warriors have proven to be hard enemies for people like the Hero of Tython... lol, uh I kill an average of 20-30 daily just for kicks on my Hero of Tython... once the Hero reaches the third act, they're honestly a wreaking ball. They march straight through DK, Kaas City, and into the Dark Temple for goodness sakes. And despite the "weakening" he/she got from facing the sith they still had the power to kill one of the greatest sith ever. I see no weakness here... merely lying sith naysayers who want to see the JK fail or expect him/her to. Even non force sensitives are expected to kill sith in this game, don't anticipate getting much support for ytour argument by referencing swtor in which they ARE the fodder. Ordinary sith were pathetic so this argument is just silly sel. Edited September 9, 2013 by StarSquirrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) No. Not Gameplay. I'm not going to Ruin the Knight story, so i'll put this in spoiler tags. It's an act 3 spoiler, END of act 3, so careful. You have been warned. When facing against the Emperor the knights love interest is captured, the Emperor himself states that fighting the extra sith on the way to saving them will weaken the Knight for the battle with Vitiate, and Scourge warns this too, this implies they were somewhat a threat. ... I don't know what to say... I do need a 'raised eyebrows' smilie though. I do that a lot. Edited September 9, 2013 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 /facepalm. I think I misread. Nothing to see here. You didn't, I mis typed. Basically, I'm saying Maul > Dooku in terms of Saber Skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 ... I don't know what to say... What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 You didn't, I mis typed. Basically, I'm saying Maul > Dooku in terms of Saber Skill. See this is why I need a raised eyebrow smilie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 lol, uh I kill an average of 20-30 daily just for kicks on my Hero of Tython... once the Hero reaches the third act, they're honestly a wreaking ball. They march straight through DK, Kaas City, and into the Dark Temple for goodness sakes. Even non force sensitives are expected to kill sith in this game, don't anticipate getting much support for ytour argument by referencing swtor in which they ARE the fodder. Ordinary sith were pathetic so this argument is just silly sel. I've warned of this Before, but even Beni cannot stay completely Un-biased, angering him by calling his arguments "silly" right before the closure isn't a fantastic way to support warren. And how about you look up a couple posts... you killing 20-30 daily for kicks... Now THAT is game mechanics. As is what's in your spoiler. Cutscenes? Not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 its called logic I will get to you when I get home from work until then listen to wolf he does know what he is talking about here.Before you do, familiarize yourself with the term: Taken from Wikipedia: Cannon fodder is an informal, derogatory term for military personnel who are regarded or treated as expendable in the face of enemy fire. The term is generally used in situations where soldiers are forced to deliberately fight against hopeless odds (with the foreknowledge that they will suffer extremely high casualties) in an effort to achieve a strategic goal. An example is the trench warfare in World War I. The term may also be used (somewhat pejoratively) to differentiate infantry from other forces (such as artillery, air force or the navy), or to distinguish expendable low-grade or inexperienced soldiers from supposedly more-valuable veterans. Taken from tvtropes: In most wartime shows that focus on Ace Pilots and other Military Mavericks, there will be a point when these are contrasted to "normal" foot soldiers who wear red shirts for standard issue uniform. They have weak weaponry, little to no armor, their only strength are their numbers, and their only available tactic is Zerg Rush. And, of course, they die en masse. It is the latter fact that almost certainly gonna cause tension between them and said ace pilots and mavericks (who, at the very least, receive Plot Armor, if not better equipment and training), ranging from alienation to open enmity. Highly trained Sith Warriors extremely skilled in using the Force and lightsabers in combat situation, on top of being clad head to toe in durasteel armor can only be defined as "cannon fodder" in relation to fictional works. In the Hope Trailer we see Sith fill the role of cannon fodder who are contrasted with plot armor coated characters such as Satele Shan and Jace Malcolm, who we see charging into battle hacking them down left right and center. And in SWTOR itself we see the playable character hacking through swathes of Force sensitives of their caliber. However, outside the realm of fictional works, the word cannon fodder does not apply. Sith Warriors are not expendable, sent to fight against insurmountable odds with little chance of success, only effective in large numbers or ever experience high casualties. They are the opposite, their are elite warriors, veteran fighters, each their own taskforce designed to lead lesser troops into battle. They are not lesser troops in themselves. The only unit in this particular Kaggath that can be described as cannon fodder are the battle droids, for obvious reasons. Simply put, the term "cannon fodder" is being used in the context of fiction, of plot device. However outside of such works the phrase is merely a definition, nothing more, and it is not suitable definition for Sith or Massassi warriors. Nor does it alone bear any weight whatsoever as an argument for that reason. Instead we should judge characters by their own merits, not by their fictional designations, else we degrade constructive debate. Let's all remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 What? I won't say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 See this is why I need a raised eyebrow smilie. Grrr. We're not going to go into this here, but Maul was a fantastic saber duelist, he beat Qui-Gon with ease, Qui-Gon and Kenobi without much difficulty, his raw Saber skills are profound. He was trained directly under Sidious from quite a young age, he learnt it all But yeh, lets not go into this here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I won't say. Tellll meee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 But yeh, lets not go into this here... We both know why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 You know I am completely lost as to what we are talking about here...what exactly are we talking about here?What we are talking about here is the incorrect use of the word "cannon fodder" - which we seem to have in spadefuls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 Tellll meee! Fine. Your evidence is not concrete for obvious reasons. But the most obvious one would be that the red scumbag is telling the player that the Sith Warriors will weaken the player before he fights the false one. Obviously he means that the player needs to be at full strength, and that the false one is getting stronger as time passes, not that the Sith would pose a challenge. And yes, I didn't use SPOILER tags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 lol, uh I kill an average of 20-30 daily just for kicks on my Hero of Tython... once the Hero reaches the third act, they're honestly a wreaking ball. They march straight through DK, Kaas City, and into the Dark Temple for goodness sakes. And despite the "weakening" he/she got from facing the sith they still had the power to kill one of the greatest sith ever. I see no weakness here... merely lying sith naysayers who want to see the JK fail or expect him/her to. Even non force sensitives are expected to kill sith in this game, don't anticipate getting much support for ytour argument by referencing swtor in which they ARE the fodder. Ordinary sith were pathetic so this argument is just silly sel.I'd just like to point out here that you've completely misinterpreted Selenial's argument here, and that this in fact supports it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) What we are talking about here is the incorrect use of the word "cannon fodder" - which we seem to have in spadefuls... Naw the term is right. When a character is far greater then some random mook, they are cannon fodder to them plot or no plot because they have taken on much worse. Edited September 9, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarSquirrel Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I've warned of this Before, but even Beni cannot stay completely Un-biased, angering him by calling his arguments "silly" right before the closure isn't a fantastic way to support warren. And how about you look up a couple posts... you killing 20-30 daily for kicks... Now THAT is game mechanics. As is what's in your spoiler. Cutscenes? Not so much. I addressed what you posted above for one (edited into spoiler). Also, please stop make me sound far more harsh than I am being, I don't all smilies at the end of everything but it seems I should start doing so to prevent you from hearing the wrong tone of voice so to speak. And I haven't called Beni's argument silly, only yours. And Beni is a big boy, he can take it even if I did Sel I really have nothing against you at all I'd prefer not to have this chat again, I'm a rather jovial person irl so try reading things with that tone from me. Might help perceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 Fine. Your evidence is not concrete for obvious reasons. But the most obvious one would be that the red scumbag is telling the player that the Sith Warriors will weaken the player before he fights the false one. Obviously he means that the player needs to be at full strength, and that the false one is getting stronger as time passes, not that the Sith would pose a challenge. And yes, I didn't use SPOILER tags. Obviously they're not going to be a Challenge for the HOT, but come on, if they're strong enough to stand against her at least, and strong enough to lower her strength they're strong enough to not be Called Canon Fodder, as they'd at least last a little while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 Naw the term is right. When a character is far greater then some random mook, they are cannon fodder to them plot or no plot because they have taken on much worse.That is not a correct use of the term cannon fodder, at least the actual term and not the plot device. What you are referring to is being outclassed. Regardless, let's get back to the big picture. Durge will have his hands full with half a dozen Sith Warriors. Who are much better combat specialists compared to squishy Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 I addressed what you posted above for one (edited into spoiler). Also, please stop make me sound far more harsh than I am being, I don't all smilies at the end of everything but it seems I should start doing so to prevent you from hearing the wrong tone of voice so to speak. And I haven't called Beni's argument silly, only yours. And Beni is a big boy, he can take it even if I did Sel I really have nothing against you at all I'd prefer not to have this chat again, I'm a rather jovial person irl so try reading things with that tone from me. Might help perceptions. I don't like people calling mah arguments Silly, and useless.... And pointless... And of course, Beni agreed with me concurrently... However, I think we both came off Harsher than intended in our posts... Truce? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 That is not a correct use of the term cannon fodder, at least the actual term and not the plot device. What you are referring to is being outclassed. Regardless, let's get back to the big picture. Durge will have his hands full with half a dozen Sith Warriors. Who are much better combat specialists compared to squishy Jedi. Outclassed/Cannon Fodder, it all means the same thing when regards putting up some random guys against a big named character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted September 9, 2013 Author Share Posted September 9, 2013 Fine. Your evidence is not concrete for obvious reasons. But the most obvious one would be that the red scumbag is telling the player that the Sith Warriors will weaken the player before he fights the false one. Obviously he means that the player needs to be at full strength, and that the false one is getting stronger as time passes, not that the Sith would pose a challenge. And yes, I didn't use SPOILER tags.Lol, the false one. I think you mean the glorious and most exalted Emperor Vitiate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 Naw the term is right. When a character is far greater then some random mook, they are cannon fodder to them plot or no plot because they have taken on much worse. You're calling them Canon Fodder against very strong foes, and then using the fact that they're Canon fodder to say they wouldn't stand a chance against Durge... THAT's what we have an issue with here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 9, 2013 Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) Obviously they're not going to be a Challenge for the HOT, but come on, if they're strong enough to stand against her at least, and strong enough to lower her strength they're strong enough to not be Called Canon Fodder, as they'd at least last a little while. That's only obvious reason numero uno. I think there are two more obvious reasons that could potentially invalidate your argument. Edited September 9, 2013 by Aurbere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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