Kaggath Tournament - Droid Supremacy vs Undying Brotherhood

[Beniboybling]

You're presenting some sad, sad arguments Beni... I'm showing you evidence, you're saying "well just look at that! There is no WAY it can be shot through!" and showing no sources as to why. But guess what, republic soldiers did it all the time with standard blasters themselves. And no way in hell that it can stop laser cannons. There are shields that can't take more than 1-2 laser cannon blasts. That is total assumption and BS.

 

That said, the E-5 blaster is not any ordinary blaster.

 

Because they were using non-living soldiers, they souped the gun up and made it smaller. This thing deals more damage per shot (and gets more shots faster for longer) as a result but is less accurate (hence the Napoleonic type fighting on Geonosis). These aren't the blasters of the TOR era, they are mentioned as being more powerful than a normal blaster (which is already noted as being capable of penetrating durasteel.)

No sources? Did you miss the clear reference I made to the SWTOR Encyclopedia that specifically states that the armor of a Sith Warrior is not only made of durasteel, but able to withstand the full impact of a blaster bolt? Or did you convenitently choose to ignore that in favour of your rampant and unsupported speculation.

 

Please, how about you show me your sources? Because I see none.

 

P.S. Technology is universal.

[Selenial]

I'm sorry, but why, of a sudden, my droids are attacking me? DS has no Spider Droids, Trade Federation had access to them via Commerce Guild, but not on his own. And If HK-01 could really hack droids, which no one has explained exactly how happens, Malgus would never take them to Geonosis. Perhaps he would take a decoy to trace HK's position, but never a force capable of disrupt his plans.

 

This is a good point.

 

Either HK-01 should be on Planet, or G0-T0 should (depending on who controls them)

 

You say G0-T0 could set them up on planet, but he couldn't, because he would have done so on Nar Shadaa. I mean come on, he had a stealthed Vessel to avoid people killing him, if he could control them cross-Galaxy he would have just chilled on some Forgotten planet and killed people from across the Stars.

[StarSquirrel]

You spelt Sane wrong.

lol Sel, and yes I was being a tad more confrontational than I should have.

 

And no my point still stands, go read it if you'd like. I've yet to see a source that says the durasteel armor could resist a laser cannon or anything stronger than an average blaster (which the E-5 was). Show me some actual sources and we can move on.

[Selenial]

No sources? Did you miss the clear reference I made to the SWTOR Encyclopedia that specifically states that the armor of a Sith Warrior is not only made of durasteel, but able to withstand the full impact of a blaster bolt? Or did you convenitently choose to ignore that in favour of your rampant and unsupported speculation.

 

Please, how about you show me your sources? Because I see none.

 

P.S. Technology is universal.

 

See, this is why you don't talk down to Beni.

 

He throws neutrality out the window and completely demolishes your argument...

 

Besides, Beni's right. I mean, you say Republic Troops did it all the time... But they didn't. You see in the Hope Trailer, that the Sith Forces had Many droids with them, and at the End every droid was destroyed. All that was left was Sith, and the Sith were brutally crushing them. If they could shoot through the Armour so easily, the sith would have been destroyed "Knightfall" style.

[Selenial]

lol Sel, and yes I was being a tad more confrontational than I should have.

 

And no my point still stands, go read it if you'd like. I've yet to see a source that says the durasteel armor could resist a laser cannon or anything stronger than an average blaster (which the E-5 was). Show me some actual sources and we can move on.

 

Vader's armor took blaster bolts pretty easily.

 

It was Durasteel, barely any thicker than that the SW would be wearing

[StarSquirrel]

No sources? Did you miss the clear reference I made to the SWTOR Encyclopedia that specifically states that the armor of a Sith Warrior is not only made of durasteel, but able to withstand the full impact of a blaster bolt? Or did you convenitently choose to ignore that in favour of your rampant and unsupported speculation.

 

Please, how about you show me your sources? Because I see none.

 

P.S. Technology is universal.

 

This which clearly states the E-5 is a more powerful blaster. This which is what you 'claim' but have no proof could be stopped by the same armor.

 

and I know about the tech rule, but E-5's are more powerful not by tech but by purpose.

 

Also, ok so yes, I mentioned that the plated parts could likely withstand shots from a blaster. Your SWTOR encyclopedia quote was not ignored. It just doesn't deal with Laser Cannons.

 

Essentially I'm not trying to say that the armor is ineffective. I just want to ensure we aren't getting the impression that it is somehow invincible or that Sith wearing it can't be killed by blasters. They can or the republic would have lost every major ground engagement jedi weren't present for in swtor.

[Beniboybling]

Beni, why the hell would you want your ranged units that are intentionally designed to be above the infantry and have good range be moving with your Melee forces? Just because they can?

Yes, exactly. Its simply logic. The closer you are to your opponent the more damage your weaponary is going to do. Why reside at the rear of your forces when your very design allows you to move closer amongst your own troops and therefore do greater damage?

 

Take a look at this image:

 

http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/4810/565322-homingspidergeonosis.jpeg

 

The spider droids walks amongst its troops, if it had been at the rear of the force I don't it would even be in range of many of the enemies forces. However because its a walker (not artillery) it is capable of walking amongst even melee forces who can merely move around and through its legs with ease. Providing optimal ranged support and taking the heat off the surrounding troops. You can rail against it all you like, but until you find some evidence of spider droids taking up the rear in any military formation, it remains optimistic speculation.

 

And finally, spider droids, unless their are walls or bodies of water, they are highly unlikely to accompany any major forces. Again bearing in mind that Malgus' force will be split into multiple parts, their are not enough droids to flank an entire army, and the tactical ability to Malgus, Ventress and Durge and more than enough to minimize casualties.

 

I'm also point out that the Force-augmented speed as well as the ranged abilities - i.e. saber throw/disc throw - mean they can likely dispatch spider droids with relative ease.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

I'm sorry, but why, of a sudden, my droids are attacking me? DS has no Spider Droids, Trade Federation had access to them via Commerce Guild, but not on his own. And If HK-01 could really hack droids, which no one has explained exactly how happens, Malgus would never take them to Geonosis. Perhaps he would take a decoy to trace HK's position, but never a force capable of disrupt his plans.

I explained:

 

First, lets look at the information at hand:

 

Taken from HK-01's Wookieepedia page:

 

HK-01 began secretly reprogramming his fellow droids, aiming to liberate his automaton brethren from their sentient masters. HK-01 set the droids to rise up in revolution at his command, and across the galaxy, droids suddenly became violent and aggressive towards their owners. Once-loyal battle droids turned against their masters, and subjugated entire planets in the name of the Droid Revolution.

 

Despite his impressive command of his new army, HK-01 was unable to remain in control of the droids, and his orders were soon deciphered and traced by agents of the Galactic Republic. The Jedi Knights were able to locate the source of these dangerous communications, and shut HK-01 down.

Taken from the Wookieepedia page on Droid Supremacy:

 

Droid supremacy was the ideal held by droids with high enough sentience programming to override their life preservation programming and revolt against their organic owners. This only instigated Anti-Droid sentiment in the organic populace, fanning the flames of hate and causing problems for the droid rights movement. It's unconfirmed as to whether they maintained separate personality matrices among individual robots...

 

...HK-01 and his droid army promoted this as his reason for starting the Great Droid Revolution.

 

From this we can gather that:

 

1. HK-01 reprogrammed droids wirelessly, it would be impossible for him to take over entire planets my manually 'liberating' each and every droid . Reference to 'dangerous communications' is also made.

 

2. There are limits to the duration and extent of his control, however his 'peak' likely numbers in the millions. His communications can also be deciphered and traced to discover the source of the transmissions.

 

3. HK-01 instigated rebellion by subverting the life preservation programming of the droids he hacked, as this would cause them to rebel in the manner that they did, and HK-01 supported Droid Supremacy.

 

4. HK-01 is capable of commanding the droids under his control, evident from the use of the word 'orders' and the fact that his droid 'army' was able to organize and take over entire planets.

 

The evidence is clear, HK-01 is capable of transmitting dangerous communications to fellow droids causing their life preservation programming to be overridden leading them to rebel against their masters. Once this is done, he is capable of commanding these droids to exact his commands. Given that G0-T0 was familiar with this same technology, which he used to create a Droid Army of his own, its more than plausible to assume that G0-T0 would be capable of transmitting HK-01's signal across the Brotherhood's worlds and across battlefields.

 

Though I agree after the first 'hit' Malgus would get wise to G0-T0's plans and put in place some measures to prevent it. I can't seem why simply jamming transmissions wouldn't get the job done.

[Beniboybling]

You spelt Sane wrong.

He also spelt facts wrong.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

He also spelt facts wrong.

 

Feel like Replying to my PM?

[Aurbere]

Vader's armor took blaster bolts pretty easily.

 

It was Durasteel, barely any thicker than that the SW would be wearing

 

Vader's armor took way more than that.

[StarSquirrel]

Yes, exactly. Its simply logic. The closer you are to your opponent the more damage your weaponary is going to do. Why reside at the rear of your forces when your very design allows you to move closer amongst your own troops and therefore do greater damage?

 

Take a look at this image:

 

http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/4810/565322-homingspidergeonosis.jpeg

 

Look at this

 

Now, where are the spider droids? Behind the advanced walkers and b1's? really? Hmm... Anyway. The idea that they do more damage is unsupported as they have a focused beam known to be capable of anti-air. If they can hit things several thousand meters up, I doubt the distance of a battlefield in which melee units are participating will reduce their effectiveness.

 

The spider droids walks amongst its troops, if it had been at the rear of the force I don't it would even be in range of many of the enemies forces. However because its a walker (not artillery) it is capable of walking amongst even melee forces who can merely move around and through its legs with ease. Providing optimal ranged support and taking the heat off the surrounding troops. You can rail against it all you like, but until you find some evidence of spider droids taking up the rear in any military formation, it remains optimistic speculation.

Not artillery? really?

Role(s)

Self-propelled artillery[1

Must've misread that.... or not... Artillery can be carried on walkers. Like this for instance. I've already dealt with the other points. Also, they have a tendency to explode when hit... on top of the fact they could fall rather easily. Do you really want that on top of your biological troops? They can best support from range, that is how they where designed.

 

finally, spider droids, unless their are walls or bodies of water, they are highly unlikely to accompany any major forces. Again bearing in mind that Malgus' force will be split into multiple parts, their are not enough droids to flank an entire army, and the tactical ability to Malgus, Ventress and Durge and more than enough to minimize casualties.

 

Considering they are the only form of artillery support for both factions, it is very safe to assume they'd be used by such. Also, Geonosis has many spires of rock, cliffs, and canyons that Spider Droids can be useful on.

 

Now that we get into tactics, that is a separate issue that I agree will be in the UB's favor.

 

I'm also point out that the Force-augmented speed as well as the ranged abilities - i.e. saber throw/disc throw - mean they can likely dispatch spider droids with relative ease.

Yes, that is likely. Not before some damage is done, but that is a good point I'd expect no less from the sith. I never suggested otherwise. Everything I expect the Spider droids to accomplish would happen within 30 sec -1 minute. Not long at all before I see them being targeted by the Sith and destroyed. That said they can do some incredible damage in the opening blast alone.

 

Also, you seem to think I put more stock in them than I do. They are a game changer but they wont win the battle. I'm smarter than to think that.

[Beniboybling]

This which clearly states the E-5 is a more powerful blaster. This which is what you 'claim' but have no proof could be stopped by the same armor.

 

and I know about the tech rule, but E-5's are more powerful not by tech but by purpose.

 

Also, ok so yes, I mentioned that the plated parts could likely withstand shots from a blaster. Your SWTOR encyclopedia quote was not ignored. It just doesn't deal with Laser Cannons.

 

Essentially I'm not trying to say that the armor is ineffective. I just want to ensure we aren't getting the impression that it is somehow invincible or that Sith wearing it can't be killed by blasters. They can or the republic would have lost every major ground engagement jedi weren't present for in swtor.

I am claiming nothing, I said I 'expect' it could withstand a few hits or glancing hits from laser cannons, as in the less powerful laser cannons mounted on a Super Battle Droid. If Sith armor can withstand the full impact of a blaster bolt, a underpowered laser bolt - while likely to do more damage - probably isn't going to tear right through what would seem to be extremely tough armour. I expect they could take several hits and glancing blows before being felled.

 

Concerning the E-5 Blaster rifle, it is 'powerful' not more powerful. We have no evidence to suggest it was more powerful than an standard E-11 Blaster rifle which is said to produce a 'very powerful particle beam'. And I'm afraid its pure speculation on your part that because they were designed for droids they were more powerful. It is noted that the designers 'skimped' on certain features, not improved its capabilites. Making references to user friendly and likely more expensive elements that they removed. Nothing was said about improved firepower or rate of fire.

 

All we know is that Sith Warrior armor can withstand the full force of a blaster rifle, which is what the B1 battle droid uses. The fact that the word 'powerful' is mentioned on its Wookiee page does not change this. Funnily enough all blaster rifles are powerful, they are after all lethal weapons designed to kill.

 

P.S. I expect most ground engagements where Sith were present and Jedi were not fell in the favour of the Sith, without the Jedi Order I expect that the Republic would have been defeated in short order.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Look at this

 

That... Is Adorable.

 

Seriously the Cutest art of a droid I've ever seen.

[Selenial]

Vader's armor took way more than that.

 

It seems StarSquirrel and Beni both conveniently missed my post

[StarSquirrel]

Though I agree after the first 'hit' Malgus would get wise to G0-T0's plans and put in place some measures to prevent it. I can't seem why simply jamming transmissions wouldn't get the job done.

If Malgus doesn't capture Geonosis (ie.. loses or destroys it), he has no place to build more of them anyway so it doesn't matter...

[StarSquirrel]

It seems StarSquirrel and Beni both conveniently missed my post

No I saw it, just didn't add anything more than what Beni had already cited via the SWTOR encyclopedia. Sorry Sel I wasn't trying to ignore you I just didn't see any need to comment.

[Selenial]

No I saw it, just didn't add anything more than what Beni had already cited via the SWTOR encyclopedia. Sorry Sel I wasn't trying to ignore you I just didn't see any need to comment.

 

Well it sort of ends the need to Argue. Vader's suit was completely Durasteel, wasn't particularly thick because he was still able to move fine, and shrugged off some damn powerful stuff...

[Aurbere]

Well it sort of ends the need to Argue. Vader's suit was completely Durasteel, wasn't particularly thick because he was still able to move fine, and shrugged off some damn powerful stuff...

 

It was more than just Durasteel, I think.

[Selenial]

If Malgus doesn't capture Geonosis (ie.. loses or destroys it), he has no place to build more of them anyway so it doesn't matter...

 

*

.*

 

Yo. Yo Star, Ima let you finish, Ima let you finish, but the Undying Brotherhood has some of the best ground forces of all time... OF ALL TIME!!!!!

 

 

(This Joke was brought to you by Darthipedia.)

Edited September 3, 2013 by Selenial

[StarSquirrel]

I am claiming nothing, I said I 'expect' it could withstand a few hits or glancing hits from laser cannons, as in the less powerful laser cannons mounted on a Super Battle Droid. If Sith armor can withstand the full impact of a blaster bolt, a underpowered laser bolt - while likely to do more damage - probably isn't going to tear right through what would seem to be extremely tough armour. I expect they could take several hits and glancing blows before being felled.

 

Concerning the E-5 Blaster rifle, it is 'powerful' not more powerful. We have no evidence to suggest it was more powerful than an standard E-11 Blaster rifle which is said to produce a 'very powerful particle beam'. And I'm afraid its pure speculation on your part that because they were designed for droids they were more powerful. It is noted that the designers 'skimped' on certain features, not improved its capabilites. Making references to user friendly and likely more expensive elements that they removed. Nothing was said about improved firepower or rate of fire.

 

All we know is that Sith Warrior armor can withstand the full force of a blaster rifle, which is what the B1 battle droid uses. The fact that the word 'powerful' is mentioned on its Wookiee page does not change this. Funnily enough all blaster rifles are powerful, they are after all lethal weapons designed to kill.

 

P.S. I expect most ground engagements where Sith were present and Jedi were not fell in the favour of the Sith, without the Jedi Order I expect that the Republic would have been defeated in short order.

 

You make good points. I reread the material and looked up other blasters as well. Alright, Alright I'll accept that they can withstand a blaster rifle. (still not convinced on the laser)

 

See, good arguments, counters to my arguments, as well as references were all I needed. I'm sorry if I was getting short with you.

[marcelo_sdk]

If Malgus doesn't capture Geonosis (ie.. loses or destroys it), he has no place to build more of them anyway so it doesn't matter...

 

That makes me wonder: will GO-TO really use Hk's hack on Geonosis? Malgus is a very smart leader, he'll obviously try to capture the factories for his own use. But he'll never give up victory for that, if he sees destroying them is the best way, he'll do it. And, when his droids are hacked by an unknown source at the moment and begin attacking him, I doubt he'll take the risk of producing more droids, he'll level the factories. GO-TO surely knows that, if he hack Malgus's droids, he'll likely make some damage to his forces, but would it be worth losing all of Geonosis factories? Remember, this is a droid concerned with Galaxy's preservation, and losing it's most powerful droid factory would not help it.

[Beniboybling]

Look at this

 

Now, where are the spider droids? Behind the advanced walkers and b1's? really? Hmm... Anyway. The idea that they do more damage is unsupported as they have a focused beam known to be capable of anti-air. If they can hit things several thousand meters up, I doubt the distance of a battlefield in which melee units are participating will reduce their effectiveness.

I fail to see your points, the walker droids are scattered amongst the troops, made quite clear by the image I provided. And the spider droids are placed in front because as low-lying units, the battle droids can shoot above them. Unfortunately this advantage is moot in terms of a melee force, and in the end the slow moving craft will merely get in the way of advancing forces, before being quickly engulfed and unable to fire over taller units.

 

As for your second point, are you implying that if a laser beam fired at you from point blank range, it would do less damage that if fire 200 metres away. I'm not sure that's true. Bearing in mind that the spider droid is also armed with laser cannons and ion weapons which would be more effective at closer range. Regardless this doesn't change the fact that 1. the walkers can walk amongst their forces without hazard 2. the walkers walked amongst droid forces during the Clone Wars, implying this was their optimal emplacement. The only reason they would position themselves behind Malgus' force is to satisfy your own strategy. You have failed to put forward any other reasons, other than that its not absolutely necessary for them to be positioned amongst the engaging forces.

Not artillery? really? Must've misread that.... or not... Artillery can be carried on walkers. Like this for instance. I've already dealt with the other points. Also, they have a tendency to explode when hit... on top of the fact they could fall rather easily. Do you really want that on top of your biological troops? They can best support from range, that is how they where designed.

Fair enough, though this does not change the fact that they are walkers, and as walkers are able to move amongst the ranks of a melee force without getting in anybody's way.

 

And fortunately, Massassai warriors and Sith are perfectly capable of evading slow falling objects, which once disabled will cease its advance and simply be left behind, with the forces spreading out to give it some room to fall.

Also, you seem to think I put more stock in them than I do. They are a game changer but they wont win the battle. I'm smarter than to think that.

So I assume you've abandoned the argument that together with the Trade Federation army they will massacre the Sith and Massassai forces in a style akin to the Arena Battle of Geonosis.

[StarSquirrel]

Well it sort of ends the need to Argue. Vader's suit was completely Durasteel, wasn't particularly thick because he was still able to move fine, and shrugged off some damn powerful stuff...

A little off topic but-

The suit was constructed using various methods of Sith alchemy which served to augment Vader's severely diminished physical strength and vitality

And it weighed 120 kilograms. Not quite like the SWTOR sith warriors suits so I'd hesitate to compare them. But yes the Durasteel argument is done, I agreed with Beni.

[Beniboybling]

Feel like Replying to my PM?

There is not much to say, all I wanted to know is what kind of changes to expect. I still need to give it some thought.