Kaggath Tournament - Droid Supremacy vs Undying Brotherhood

[Selenial]

Not exactly, you only ever see two Interdictors but you never see any more than 6-7 Republic vessels. I assume other battles were going on elsewhere.

 

You see about 17 Hammerheads in one shot. 5 as the camera looks over a small portion of the battlefield, and 12 firing at the Star Forge... On the other hand, you see huge shots of the battle field, you see the Republic ships arrive and the Interdictors orbiting, and I only ever saw 2 Interdictors.....

 

Yes there were likely more, but probably at the same Ratio.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Selenial

[Warren-Stride]

The only way DS can win is by massing all it's forces on Geonosis to prevent the loss of the planet.

 

Not exactly true. But hey, if that's what your terms are.

 

 

Numbers

 

Battle of Geonosis.

 

192,000 clones/200 Jedi vs 1 million battle droids - Battle droids outnumber 5-1

 

DS vs UB

 

10,000 Massassi/1,000 SWs vs 250,000 battle droids - Battle droids outnumber 227-1

 

Odds Difference = x45.4

 

 

Death Rate

 

Battle of Geonosis

 

Clone Casualty Rate

192,000 total / ~20k dead + ~12k seriously injured = 16% death rate

 

Jedi Casualty Rate

212 total / 179 dead = 84% death rate

 

DS vs UB

 

Massassi Casualty Rate

10,000 Massassi x .16 (Death Rate) = 1,600 dead x 45.4 (Odds Difference) = 72,000 Massassi dead

 

Sith Warrior Casualty Rate

1,000 SWs x .84 (Death Rate) = 840 dead x 45.4 (Odds Difference) = 38,000 Sith dead

 

 

 

Obviously the numbers are not fact. They are not meant to be taken as fact. But this is simply to put things in perspective. If the UB invades Geonosis in 5 days after the start of the Kaggath, they will be 45 times as outnumbered as the clones were. If the death rate was 16% with 5-1 odds, imagine the death rate with 227-1 odds.

 

Based on my nowhere near accurate calculations that take almost nothing into account and don't consider a lot of factors, the UB would need 72,000 Massassi and 38,000 Sith if they wanted to take Geonosis. Obviously these numbers aren't correct. However, it shows just how outmatched the UB is on Geonosis. You can completely ignore the Death Rate part if you want, the numbers comparison is really all that matters.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Beniboybling]

Beni, make one thing clear to me: DS will have access to all the assets the inhabitants of his planets can provide? Cause all of a sudden, he has all the Geonosian Hives and even Acklays fighting for him. If that's the case, fine, I'll have Terentateks, all the Massassis of the Empire, not just the ones from Yavin.

Actually we need to clear a few things up here, so I'll go through each planet individually:

 

Dromund Kaas: All military and government elements of the Sith Empire are non-existent, all that remains is the population, this includes slaves. However Kaas City and the Citadel remain, as do all flora and fauna.

 

Korriban: Again all military and government elements of the Sith Empire are non-existent. This includes

all members of the Sith caste system excluding the Zuguruk (engineers) who were not really affiliated with any particular organisation, they were merely skilled members of the population. This does exlcude Sith Lords, Kissai priests and Massassi warriors. Especially the Massassi as these were effectively the Sith Empire's standing army.

 

Yavin 4: All Massassi on the surface are permitted as any over flora and fauna and the various temples dotted across the planet. However none of the Sith artifacts that may have been found in the tombs of Kun and Sadow.

 

Ziost: Pretty much the same as Korriban.

 

Lianna: No particular corporations such as Santhe, however the ship-building facilities and factories remain.

 

Bothawui: No Bothan Spynet, however the planet remains a hub for information trafficking. The Bothawui shipyards are also accessible.

 

Nar Shaddaa: No crime organisations excluding the Exchange, however independent criminals, bounty hunters, smugglers etc. and the general populace remain. As do the various small factories and shipyards on the planet's surface, and the various information sources passing through the planet.

 

Kamino: Much of the planet remains accessible including the cloning facilities and the Kaminoan population, however the Kaminoan government is non-existent. Nor are the Kaminoans obliged to assist the Supremacy.

 

Geonosis: The Geonosian droid foundries remain however the Geonosian hives have restrictions similar to that of the Sith. The Queen (or any Geonosian leaders) and Warrior castes are not permitted, only the worker class remain.

 

Mon Calamari: the Mon Cal shipyards remain as do their various city structures and any factories they may house. However the Mon Cal government and military and non-existent. Though the populace remains.

 

I hope this clears up any remaining questions.

[Beniboybling]

As for the scenarios. With Grievous, my forces don't even have to look for the factories on Geonosis, the attacks will be right at the targets, a quick swip, which is essential, as UB needs to cease the droids production as quick as possible. To be honest, DS was very unlucky I have Grievous on my side, that probably was a major setback to their plains, and he'll probably be the greatest responsible if UB wins this.

 

And to be honest, I don't think Malgus will want to destroy the factories on Geonosis. He is too smart for that. By taking then, he'll bolster the droid productions immensely. And if HK-01 begins the hacking, which is inevitable, better on, it'll be one less ally for DS. It'll not take long for DS to track him down and put an end to him. Ventress can easily take care of him alone, but Durge can go along, in case there's some guard with him.

 

After Geonosis is taken, HK-01 is destroyed, DS's planets will fall one by one, there's no way out for them. And to think GO-TO will be able to hide forever, with no resources, is being too optimistic.

 

The only way DS can win is by massing all it's forces on Geonosis to prevent the loss of the planet, which would leave everything else unguarded, or a direct attack on Malgus. But with DS has no single individual who can do this, to kill the Sith Lord, they'll need an army, not a strike team, and I doubt they'll be able to spare such force when tehy are being attack from all sides by UB forces.

Two things I'll point out here.

 

1. HK-01 doesn't - and likely won't - need to be on the planet to take over your droid units. All G0-T0 has to do is set up some transmitters to relay his dangerous communications across the battlefield and HK-01 can be in another system, most likely on Bothawui or aboard a droid control ship.

 

2. Pirate and smuggling ships combined with his information network will alert G0-T0 to Malgus' target and he will react accordingly. Regardless the entire Trade Federation Army is going be being produced on Geonosis.

[Beniboybling]

It was my understanding that he doesn't. But the Exchange, the DS's supplier, can purchase stealth technology and outfit a ship with it. Maybe the Stinger, Guri's personal ship that was part of the Black Sun Navy?

Guri would have the Stinger regardless as it is her personal ship. And outfitting it with stealth capabilities seems possible, it already had undergone radical modifications, it will however take time.

 

EDIT: Damn that's things powerful! It took out a Star Destroyer with a spray of proton torpedos!

 

Ka-blam!

Edited September 2, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

38,000 Sith dead

 

Not only do you lose 1,000 sith, you must train another 37,000 and force them to commit suicide! Hazaa!

 

 

But On a serious note, almost every Jedi that survived the Arena or were dropped in after survived the actual assault, I think one or two died but that's it.

 

The Arena was a completely different scenario, and Dooku played on the weaknesses of the Jedi that he knew first hand, IE surrounding them.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Selenial

[marcelo_sdk]

Speaking of leaving things unguarded, who, exactly, is guarding the UB planets?

 

The Black Sun Navy were masters of piracy and raiding techniques. When all of the UB's forces leave to attack Geonosis, the DS could easily send in a small portion of its fleet and the Terror Units to utterly destroy the UB worlds.

 

The rest of my fleet? Do you think I need to send all my navy to defeat a portion of yours? You are very wrong if you think I'll sen all my forces to Geonosis.

 

Not exactly true. But hey, if that's what your terms are.

 

 

Numbers

 

Battle of Geonosis.

 

192,000 clones/200 Jedi vs 1 million battle droids - Battle droids outnumber 5-1

 

DS vs UB

 

10,000 Massassi/1,000 SWs vs 250,000 battle droids - Battle droids outnumber 227-1

 

Odds Difference = x45.4

 

 

Death Rate

 

Battle of Geonosis

 

Clone Casualty Rate

192,000 total / ~20k dead + ~12k seriously injured = 16% death rate

 

Jedi Casualty Rate

212 total / 179 dead = 84% death rate

 

DS vs UB

 

Massassi Casualty Rate

10,000 Massassi x .16 (Death Rate) = 1,600 dead x 45.4 (Odds Difference) = 72,000 Massassi dead

 

Sith Warrior Casualty Rate

1,000 SWs x .84 (Death Rate) = 840 dead x 45.4 (Odds Difference) = 38,000 Sith dead

 

 

 

Obviously the numbers are not fact. They are not meant to be taken as fact. But this is simply to put things in perspective. If the UB invades Geonosis in 5 days after the start of the Kaggath, they will be 45 times as outnumbered as the clones were. If the death rate was 16% with 5-1 odds, imagine the death rate with 227-1 odds.

 

Based on my nowhere near accurate calculations that take almost nothing into account and don't consider a lot of factors, the UB would need 72,000 Massassi and 38,000 Sith if they wanted to take Geonosis. Obviously these numbers aren't correct. However, it shows just how outmatched the UB is on Geonosis. You can completely ignore the Death Rate part if you want, the numbers comparison is really all that matters.

 

As you said, these are only numbers. First, because you are excluding my droid forces, second, UB have no intention in a big battle like the Battle of Geonosis, the attacks will be precise, also I'll not be fighting inside an Arena, which was the main reason for the Jedi's defeat.

 

Two things I'll point out here.

 

1. HK-01 doesn't - and likely won't - need to be on the planet to take over your droid units. All G0-T0 has to do is set up some transmitters to relay his dangerous communications across the battlefield and HK-01 can be in another system, most likely on Bothawui or aboard a droid control ship.

 

2. Pirate and smuggling ships combined with his information network will alert G0-T0 to Malgus' target and he will react accordingly. Regardless the entire Trade Federation Army is going be being produced on Geonosis.

 

1. Doesn't matter where he is, as soon as he starts the hacking, I can trace him, whatever he is, and destroy him. If he is on the planet or in the other side of the galaxy, doesn't matter, the only thing will be how long I'll take to kill him.

 

2. Also irrelevant, Malgus will not even try to hide that he's going to Geonosis, it would be useless. After landing, there'll be no pirates, and I doubt the comms will still be up. He can send small strike teams to all the key targets, and on land, he goes to where Grievous think it's best. Grievous knowledge of teh factories is far greater than anyone from DS.

Edited September 2, 2013 by marcelo_sdk

[Warren-Stride]

As you said, these are only numbers. First, because you are excluding my droid forces, second, UB have no intention in a big battle like the Battle of Geonosis, the attacks will be precise, also I'll not be fighting inside an Arena, which was the main reason for the Jedi's defeat.

 

Doesn't look like the Jedi are surrounded here at 7:10 =

 

Remember what happened last time someone tried to make a precise attack on Geonosis? They were surrounded by droidekas, then chained to posts to be fed to animals. Besides, even if they destroy the factories, which you say Malgus wouldn't want in the first place, there are still 250,000 battle droids on the planet they have to clean up.

 

Also, Greivous didn't design the factories, guys. He doesn't know all its weaknesses, he doesn't know all of its inner workings. He might know where some stuff is, but he wasn't exactly overseeing production. In fact, most of his time on Geonosis was spent in the catacombs, nowhere near the factories.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Selenial]

Doesn't look like the Jedi are surrounded here at 7:10 =

 

That's different, they were charging into battle, which is generally not what Jedi do because whilst closing in they die, In melee range? Not so much.

 

The sith would be reinforcing the Massassi from behind.

 

Remember what happened last time someone tried to make a precise attack on Geonosis? They were surrounded by droidekas, then chained to posts to be fed to animals. Besides, even if they destroy the factories, which you say Malgus wouldn't want in the first place, there are still 250,000 battle droids on the planet they have to clean up.

 

Also, Greivous didn't design the factories, guys. He doesn't know all its weaknesses, he doesn't know all of its inner workings. He might know where some stuff is, but he wasn't exactly overseeing production. In fact, most of his time on Geonosis was spent in the catacombs, nowhere near the factories.

 

Ummm. People really need to watch TCU....

 

Second Invasion of Geonosis, they split up across the Planet with the Jedi and their forces hitting Poggul the lessers factory. There, Skywalker and Unduli marched troops up the front lines right into the battle droids, whilst Ahsoka Tano and Barris Offee went through the catacombs into the factory and planted bombs.

 

Ventress would do that, just better.

 

And Ventress and Grevious know Geonosian factories, major battles in the War were fought there, it was crucial they knew about the weaknesses and Strengths in case the Republic struck,

 

They also knew Kamino's ins and outs from their Invasion of Tipoca City, where Ventress slipped past every clone on the station and got into the Clones DNA Chambers...

[Beniboybling]

But On a serious note, almost every Jedi that survived the Arena or were dropped in after survived the actual assault, I think one or two died but that's it.

Nope it was a complete massacre, of the 212 that he been deployed in the Arena, 20 survived.

 

Yah.

[Selenial]

Nope it was a complete massacre, of the 212 that he been deployed in the Arena, 20 survived.

 

Yah.

 

Read it again.

 

I said any that SURVIVED the Arena and went on to fight.

[Warren-Stride]

That's different, they were charging into battle, which is generally not what Jedi do because whilst closing in they die...

That's exactly what the Sith will be doing.

 

The sith would be reinforcing the Massassi from behind.

 

...

 

I'm not sure why you're making that assumption, but I challenge you to find an example of a battle fought where the Force Users were not leading the charge. Especially Sith.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[marcelo_sdk]

There'll be no charges! The battle will not be fought like that! As Selenial already said, the strike will be similar to that from TCW. Therell be no great battles, just little skirmishes to sway the attention. In that time, Ventress, who knows the catacombs a lot better than Ahsoka and Barriss, will areak havoc on the factories.

[Selenial]

There'll be no charges! The battle will not be fought like that! As Selenial already said, the strike will be similar to that from TCW. Therell be no great battles, just little skirmishes to sway the attention. In that time, Ventress, who knows the catacombs a lot better than Ahsoka and Barriss, will areak havoc on the factories.

 

Ventress doesn't know them better than Barriss, Barriss studied it and knew every junction in the Catacomb. Ventress just won't make the mistakes they did, because basically... Ahsoka touched a sleeping Geonosian, whereas Ventress is much more subtle.

[Selenial]

[/color]That's exactly what the Sith will be doing.

...

I'm not sure why you're making that assumption, but I challenge you to find an example of a battle fought where the Force Users were not leading the charge. Especially Sith.

 

Marcelo just covered this, But i thought i'd back it up.

 

There won't be huge scale battles like that, the Sith are also far more capable at Blaster Deflection and battle than those Canon Fodder Jedi, because the Sith have faced war their entire lives. They'd be able to charge the droids without death if they had to.

 

But they likely won't have to.

[Beniboybling]

Read it again.

 

I said any that SURVIVED the Arena and went on to fight.

It says that 212 Jedi were sent to rescue Kenobi and co. all but 20 were killed... whether they wen't on to fight or not is irrelevant, it was a massacre.

[Beniboybling]

Speaking of leaving things unguarded, who, exactly, is guarding the UB planets?

 

The Black Sun Navy were masters of piracy and raiding techniques. When all of the UB's forces leave to attack Geonosis, the DS could easily send in a small portion of its fleet and the Terror Units to utterly destroy the UB worlds.

The DS can guard the entirety of Sith Space by choking its only access point with gravity well generators.

[Beniboybling]

1. Doesn't matter where he is, as soon as he starts the hacking, I can trace him, whatever he is, and destroy him. If he is on the planet or in the other side of the galaxy, doesn't matter, the only thing will be how long I'll take to kill him.

 

2. Also irrelevant, Malgus will not even try to hide that he's going to Geonosis, it would be useless. After landing, there'll be no pirates, and I doubt the comms will still be up. He can send small strike teams to all the key targets, and on land, he goes to where Grievous think it's best. Grievous knowledge of teh factories is far greater than anyone from DS.

1. With what exactly? You don't have the necessary equipment or skilled individuals to decipher and trace the code. And even then you have to get to his no doubt heavily defended position. Time is an important commodity, it gives the Supremacy the opportunity to build its forces and damage the Brotherhoods.

 

2. It is relevant, because it means that G0-T0 can divert the majority of his forces to Geonosis without impunity, and also delay your arrival through various ambushes, but I'll elaborate on that later.

[Beniboybling]

That's different, they were charging into battle, which is generally not what Jedi do because whilst closing in they die, In melee range? Not so much.

 

The sith would be reinforcing the Massassi from behind.

Actually it was custom for Sith Warriors to lead at the front, using their lightsabers and general bad@ssery to protect the units behind them and provide moral support etc. no Sith Warrior is going to be hurrying in from behind. That would be a bad tactic. And Jedi don't die when rushing their opponents, they have these magic blaster bolt deflecting glow rods called lightsabers.

 

What you just witnessed is a good demonstration of how the battlefield will look, hundreds of Sith Warriors charging their opponents and chopping up battle droids. Though lets not lose sight of whatever point is being made here.

Ummm. People really need to watch TCU....

 

Second Invasion of Geonosis, they split up across the Planet with the Jedi and their forces hitting Poggul the lessers factory. There, Skywalker and Unduli marched troops up the front lines right into the battle droids, whilst Ahsoka Tano and Barris Offee went through the catacombs into the factory and planted bombs.

 

Ventress would do that, just better.

 

And Ventress and Grevious know Geonosian factories, major battles in the War were fought there, it was crucial they knew about the weaknesses and Strengths in case the Republic struck,

 

They also knew Kamino's ins and outs from their Invasion of Tipoca City, where Ventress slipped past every clone on the station and got into the Clones DNA Chambers...

An excellent point. However in this instance there is more than one factory. Edited September 2, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

It says that 212 Jedi were sent to rescue Kenobi and co. all but 20 were killed... whether they wen't on to fight or not is irrelevant, it was a massacre.

 

It's completely Relevant.

 

The Jedi won't be surrounded Arena-Style, which is when most of them died.

[Selenial]

An excellent point. However in this instance there is more than one factory.[/color]

 

Yes but taking the Prime Foundry down goes a long way to conquering the Planet.... And with the fact most of the leaders would be held up in it, it would throw the droids into disarray too.

[Warren-Stride]

Wait, what is Malgus trying to do with this Geonosis invasion? Is he destroying the factories, or trying to capture the planet to use them for his own purposes?

[Aurbere]

Wait, what is Malgus trying to do with this Geonosis invasion? Is he destroying the factories, or trying to capture the planet to use them for his own purposes?

 

Last I read, it was the latter.

[Beniboybling]

It's completely Relevant.

 

The Jedi won't be surrounded Arena-Style, which is when most of them died.

Well that's as maybe, I was just pointing out that it was in fact a massacre.

[Beniboybling]

Yes but taking the Prime Foundry down goes a long way to conquering the Planet.... And with the fact most of the leaders would be held up in it, it would throw the droids into disarray too.

There would be no 'leaders' held up in it. Just machines making machines. And sure you could take down the biggest factory, but it will only put a dent in their already massive production capabilities. Nor will it help the actual ground battle in any way, it will merely have long term effects.