Kaggath Tournament - Droid Supremacy vs Undying Brotherhood

[StarSquirrel]

Orait. 'Cause not like he'd have an entire army to defend him or anything.

Either way, what happens after the Kaggath is immaterial as once victory is achieved the Kaggath is over.

[Beniboybling]

How about we get out of this quagmire of assumptions and look at what Wookieepedia says:

 

As was befitting of a planning droid, G0-T0 held efficiency in high value. Due to this he also found his directive to rebuild the Republic distasteful. In G0-T0's view the Republic was an inefficient system bloated with bureaucracy and built on bad decisions, and an optimal solution in his opinion would have been to scrap the entire government and enact a new one. However, he was forced to follow his directive to help maintain the continued existence of the Republic. The same desire for efficiency and for rebuilding the Republic is also why G0-T0 took an interest in the Jedi Exile. As history showed several instances of even a single Jedi being capable of causing great changes on an interstellar scale, G0-T0 considered the Jedi Exile a valuable asset to have on his side.

 

Once free from following the laws of the Republic, G0-T0 displayed a decidedly amoral personality. He had no problem having people killed if they stood in the way of his plans, and referred to it as "deleting" people. In fact, he came to enjoy his position as a crime lord, free of following Republic bureaucracy and seeing his actions have fast and clear effects.

 

G0-T0 displayed an understanding of psychology uncommon for droids. Knowing that most organics considered droids inferior and were unlikely to take orders from one, he constructed the persona of Goto to work around this issue. He modeled its personality after holovid villains, and was surprised at how well that worked. G0-T0 also had a new body built for himself, and placed special emphasis on giving it an intimidating appearance.

 

I've highlighted the most relevant parts.

 

And in future, when making statements about characters, back them up with solid evidence or don't bother. Seriously, I'll ignore all comments that aren't backed up with sources. It may sound mean but quibbling over personality traits its exhausting and wasteful, and too many assumptions end up being made.

[Selenial]

What your saying here is all rather speculative, but I'll humor you.

 

There is no need for G0-T0 to override HK-01s Droid Supremacy programming, all he needs to do is instill obedience in the droid and it will do whatever he demands. Regardless, if G0-T0 accesses HK-01s mainframe there is nothing he can do about it, so G0-T0 could simply disable HK-01 and rewrite every program in his body if he so pleased.

 

Basically there is nothing stopping G0-T0 from controlling HK-01, he therefore won't rebel. Simple as, let's move on.

 

None of that is speculation. In the Non-Canon KOTOR 2 he rewired Hk and HK had no idea.

In Kotor 1, Revan rewired him so drastically it almost caused a meltdown because HK rebelled against the new programming.

 

Ahh, ordering Obedience is more complicated than you think. Besides, HK-01 was originally meant to be obedient to his masters. Funny how that turned out. He'd need a full Memory wipe to stabilize him enough to rewire him without fail, and that means bye bye to the Droid Controlling...

[Selenial]

And in future, when making statements about characters, back them up with solid evidence or don't bother. Seriously, I'll ignore all comments that aren't backed up with sources. It may sound mean but quibbling over personality traits its exhausting and wasteful, and too many assumptions end up being made.

 

Oh I just love it when people quote a publicly editable article as fact.

 

Time to go back to KOTOR 2 and spam you all with quotes.... Again.

[Beniboybling]

Ahh, ordering Obedience is more complicated than you think. Besides, HK-01 was originally meant to be obedient to his masters. Funny how that turned out. He'd need a full Memory wipe to stabilize him enough to rewire him without fail, and that means bye bye to the Droid Controlling...

In the small instance that HK-01 manages to override his programming, he will still not assimilate G0-T0 because G0-T0 has already liberated himself from his droid owners.

[Beniboybling]

Oh I just love it when people quote a publicly editable article as fact.

 

Time to go back to KOTOR 2 and spam you all with quotes.... Again.

Selenial. No offense, but I regard Wookieepedia articles above your own opinion. So yes, go and dig up those quotes.

 

And for the record, just because its 'publicly editable' doesn't mean its wrong. The people who write the articles are just like you and me, except there are several of them and the articles and constantly updated and reviewed. Don't you think they've played KOTOR as well? Of course they have. Who exactly is reviewing and editing your statements?

 

I'm not saying your wrong, but you need to back up your statements.

 

EDIT: And while your at it please elaborate on what your point is, because I'm lost. Bearing in mind that HK knows nothing of his master's personality, only what G0-T0 tells him. Which will probably be that he loves the idea of Droid Supremacy, wants to take over the galaxy and liberate all droids in it and have humans give them mandatory oil baths every day. I'm sure that that will motivate HK to support him and a loyalty program will be a backup.

 

EDIT: And in the small chance that HK-01 does manage to override G0-T0 nothing will change, if anything G0-T0 will be improved because he'll be totally unrestricted by his programming and free to pummel Malgus into the dust with out any care for the stability of the galaxy and all that jazz. Either way G0-T0 wins.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

I'm not saying your wrong, but you need to back up your statements.

 

Fine.

 

I have told you. I prefer Stability.

 

It (G0-T0) made a simple decision. Preserve the Republic, or Preserve the Laws of the Republic. I still believe it to be the right decision.

 

To clean up this messed caused by you Jedi, another Catastrophe caused by mismanagement and waste.

 

For the Good of all (Indicating he wanted to save Organics) I was forced to abandon the Legal Structure of the Republic.

 

And the Hutts must be occupied with me so the Galaxy has room to recover.

 

Some of it may be blamed on the Jedi Civil War, the Mandalorian wore, but not all.

Indicating he hates war because it never leads to stability.

 

Oh please, it is difficult for anyone to take a droid Seriously, especially an infrastructure droid built by the Republic.

Implies that if anyone was to lead, it could not be him, unless all organics died.

 

Either for the Republic, or the Sith.

 

That's just one conversation. There's more about the Sith and Republic, and who he prefers in the G0-T0 yacht Conversation, but I don't have a save game near there.

[Selenial]

EDIT: And while your at it please elaborate on what your point is, because I'm lost. Bearing in mind that HK knows nothing of his master's personality, only what G0-T0 tells him. Which will probably be that he loves the idea of Droid Supremacy, wants to take over the galaxy and liberate all droids in it and have humans give them mandatory oil baths every day. I'm sure that that will motivate HK to support him and a loyalty program will be a backup.

 

*sigh*

 

The point is that whilst HK-01 might no see past G0-T0's lies, G0-T0 won't want HK getting the power to sway huge amounts of droids against their Owners, the Organics.

 

G0-T0 doesn't want all Organics dead, but HK-01 does, so innevitably they're going to clash at some point, it's just a matter of time.

 

And then there's the fact people are saying he wants to rule, and that he's fine going flat out war. Both of which are not true.

[Warren-Stride]

G0-T0 doesn't want all Organics dead, but HK-01 does..

 

NO. HE DOESN'T.

 

Where is it ever stated, anywhere, that HK-01 wants biological beings dead? Stop twisting the facts.

 

HK-01's only motivation is this:

HK-01 began secretly reprogramming his fellow droids, aiming to liberate his automaton brethren from their sentient masters.

 

Get it right. Please.

[Warren-Stride]

And then there's the fact people are saying he wants to rule, and that he's fine going flat out war.

 

Well sucks to be G0-T0 then, because he's ruling and he's in an all-out Kaggath war. And he'll just have to deal with it because surrender is not an option.

 

What is your impact to this argument? So what if he doesn't want to rule or go to war? That doesn't mean he's going to lay down and die.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Beniboybling]

*sigh*

 

The point is that whilst HK-01 might no see past G0-T0's lies, G0-T0 won't want HK getting the power to sway huge amounts of droids against their Owners, the Organics.

 

G0-T0 doesn't want all Organics dead, but HK-01 does, so innevitably they're going to clash at some point, it's just a matter of time.

 

And then there's the fact people are saying he wants to rule, and that he's fine going flat out war. Both of which are not true.

HK-01 is going to be fairly occupied with the Kaggath to start expanding droid freedom. G0-T0 will be using him to expand his network across the Brotherhood's worlds, their navies and their armies.

 

And by this point G0-T0 will have either discovered a method of instilling absolute obedience in HK-01 while retaining his hacking capabilities or deciphered the means by which HK-01 hacks droids and replicate it. Heck I expect G0-T0 will end up rigged HK-01 to big machine and simply using him as a conduit for his droid takeover.

 

And if all else fails, G0-T0 can deactivate him once sufficient damage is done.

[Beniboybling]

Fine.

Strange, I found no information here that isn't detailed on Wookieepedia. Who would have thought...

 

Anyway I'd point out two things here:

 

1. Much like saving rather than scrapping the Republic was a necessary move, as will an all-out war with the Malgus. I'm sure G0-T0 would view his own survival as vital to his plans, and so destroying the Brotherhood is a priority. Most likely G0-T0 will attempt to limit the destruction, but he won't shy a way from a little bloodshed.

 

2. G0-T0's comment about no-one taking him seriously I believe is reference to his holographic disguise that he used to circumvent this. This doesn't mean if he could he wouldn't rule the galaxy, but he simply can't so there is no use attempting it. However this doesn't mean he thinks organics being in charge is the best for the galaxy. The fact that he regarded the Republic as a quagmire of bureaucracy implies he didn't much care for its senators.

[Selenial]

Strange, I found no information here that isn't detailed on Wookieepedia. Who would have thought...

 

Odd. If it was listed on Wookieepedia then surely you would have put it in part of your copy and paste. But no, I must be wrong, because choosing to omit all benefits to one side of the argument is very biased, and Beni is never biased.....

 

Anyway I'd point out two things here:

 

1. Much like saving rather than scrapping the Republic was a necessary move, as will an all-out war with the Malgus. I'm sure G0-T0 would view his own survival as vital to his plans, and so destroying the Brotherhood is a priority. Most likely G0-T0 will attempt to limit the destruction, but he won't shy a way from a little bloodshed.

 

2. G0-T0's comment about no-one taking him seriously I believe is reference to his holographic disguise that he used to circumvent this. This doesn't mean if he could he wouldn't rule the galaxy, but he simply can't so there is no use attempting it. However this doesn't mean he thinks organics being in charge is the best for the galaxy. The fact that he regarded the Republic as a quagmire of bureaucracy implies he didn't much care for its senators.

 

And you're still drastically missing the point.

 

1. Why? Why is an "All out" war with Malgus Necessary? It's not. At all. Removing him from the equation and avoiding as much of a battle as humanly (Droidly?) possible would be the plausible route for G0-T0 to take. Causing bloodshed lowers the defences of a ruling government, and the whole point of his Efforts on Nar Shadaa was letting the Governments reconstruct their defences. Taking Malgus out with as little full scale wars as possible is the only in-character thing G0-T0 would do, he was perfectly fine with Sith and Jedi, and viewed them as Necessary for the moment, as long as they weren't in fighting. And guess what? Malgus' entire empire was based on only taking Sith who don't turn on each other and annihilate themselves.

 

2. Not sure why you even typed the first part, that's exactly what I said earlier... Never once did he call it "a Quagmire of Bureaucracy" that's wookieepedia taking stuff out of context and rephrasing it.

What he actually said was: There are So many Bad Decisions that Build upon each other that it is a wonder the republic is intact at all.

He doesn't exactly think he could do a perfect jobs, Mistakes are always made. This point is irrelevant.

[tunewalker]

OK the whole GO-TO wanting peace in the galaxy this is absolutely why he would want malgus dead, Malgus hated the treaty of corucant because he found peace with the republic impossible in fact part of him finds peace in general impossible as it doesn't stir the kind of competition that is healthy for the sith, so GO-TO would absolutely wish to kill malgus.

 

 

Also less rules and restrictions is NOT the way of the sith. When the sith rule its all about MORE rules and restrictions they want to dominate people fully so they impose all kinds of new rules and try to get people to bend to their will.

[Selenial]

OK the whole GO-TO wanting peace in the galaxy this is absolutely why he would want malgus dead, Malgus hated the treaty of corucant because he found peace with the republic impossible in fact part of him finds peace in general impossible as it doesn't stir the kind of competition that is healthy for the sith, so GO-TO would absolutely wish to kill malgus.

 

 

Also less rules and restrictions is NOT the way of the sith. When the sith rule its all about MORE rules and restrictions they want to dominate people fully so they impose all kinds of new rules and try to get people to bend to their will.

 

No, there's no one for Malgus to be at war with Except G0-T0.

And as I said, G0-T0 was perfectly happy with a sith rule.

 

They have less rules and restrictions in that they're open to doing anything they have to to survive. That's what I was talking about,the Republic, in his eyes, collapsed because it had laws preventing it from doing the necessary things It had to... The sith don't have those rules.

[Beniboybling]

Odd. If it was listed on Wookieepedia then surely you would have put it in part of your copy and paste. But no, I must be wrong, because choosing to omit all benefits to one side of the argument is very biased, and Beni is never biased.....

Its all there, I can only assume you didn't look.

[Warren-Stride]

Selenial, I think, at this point, no one cares.

 

You're not convincing anyone. Just drop it.

[tunewalker]

No, there's no one for Malgus to be at war with Except G0-T0.

And as I said, G0-T0 was perfectly happy with a sith rule.

 

They have less rules and restrictions in that they're open to doing anything they have to to survive. That's what I was talking about,the Republic, in his eyes, collapsed because it had laws preventing it from doing the necessary things It had to... The sith don't have those rules.

 

Peace is not malgus's way once GO-TO is dead he will go for war for the sake of war, he was a war monger GO-TO will know this.

 

 

If this is the case here is question why didn't GO-TO help Nihilus and Sion, he contemplated sith rule but the sith has to be some one like Palps or Krayt for it to work. Any one that is even partially war mongering (which malgus is) would not be suitable ruler in the eyes of GO-TO.

[Beniboybling]

And you're still drastically missing the point.

 

1. Why? Why is an "All out" war with Malgus Necessary? It's not. At all. Removing him from the equation and avoiding as much of a battle as humanly (Droidly?) possible would be the plausible route for G0-T0 to take. Causing bloodshed lowers the defences of a ruling government, and the whole point of his Efforts on Nar Shadaa was letting the Governments reconstruct their defences. Taking Malgus out with as little full scale wars as possible is the only in-character thing G0-T0 would do, he was perfectly fine with Sith and Jedi, and viewed them as Necessary for the moment, as long as they weren't in fighting. And guess what? Malgus' entire empire was based on only taking Sith who don't turn on each other and annihilate themselves.

 

2. Not sure why you even typed the first part, that's exactly what I said earlier... Never once did he call it "a Quagmire of Bureaucracy" that's wookieepedia taking stuff out of context and rephrasing it.

What he actually said was: There are So many Bad Decisions that Build upon each other that it is a wonder the republic is intact at all.

He doesn't exactly think he could do a perfect jobs, Mistakes are always made. This point is irrelevant.

1. Because G0-T0 isn't capable of avoiding the entire Brotherhood and simply taking out Malgus. If Malgus' forces attack, he has no choice but defend himself, and he has no choice but to fight back else he'll face destruction. No he's not going to orbitally bombard planets or systematically take over the Brotherhood's worlds. But he will do what ever it takes to destroy Malgus and preserve himself. Which means war. Your quotes also imply he had a great deal of distate for Jedi who go around causing commotion. And I don't he'll think highly of Massassi and Sith Warriors whose primary purpose is to destroy and cause chaos. Regardless they are collateral damage.

 

2. Well that's just dandy. But that doesn't change the fact that he thought the people running the Republic were doing a terrible job. Or prove that G0-T0 liked them in anyway. I'm sure he would think he could do a better job. He was after all already taking matters into his own hands, because he thought he could do better.

 

Regardless, what effect exactly is this going to have on the battle? G0-T0 is still going to fight hard to protect his planets, and he's still going to badger the Brotherhood's fleets. He's not in a position to conduct an all out assault, so any counter attack will likely be a stealthy one. Essentially this changes nothing.

[Beniboybling]

No, there's no one for Malgus to be at war with Except G0-T0.

And as I said, G0-T0 was perfectly happy with a sith rule.

 

They have less rules and restrictions in that they're open to doing anything they have to to survive. That's what I was talking about,the Republic, in his eyes, collapsed because it had laws preventing it from doing the necessary things It had to... The sith don't have those rules.

I'd just like to make it clear here that G0-T0 has no choice but to destroy Malgus, whether he wants to or not. Regardless tune is correct, Malgus was a warmonger who believed that the galaxy had to be in a state of perpetual war because conflict is 'perfect' - G0-T0 doesn't know this, but it will come across in his aggressive and destructive tactics.

 

Also take into account that G0-T0 liked Revan's regime, but spat upon Malak's. Revan was efficient and effective who favored minimal conflict over infrastructure, while Malak went to hell with this and started destroying everything. Like Malak, Malgus is a very aggressive tactician, and G0-T0 will come to see him as a problem too.

 

I think the only thing that can be taken from this is that G0-T0s campaign is not going to be a highly destructive one, but seeing as his limited firepower makes him incapable of this, its really not an issue worth discussing.

[Beniboybling]

Selenial, I think, at this point, no one cares.

 

You're not convincing anyone. Just drop it.

A little harsh, but I think its time to move on. I respect Selenial's general point but there's no use discussing it without applying it directly to the debate, so lets just move on and keep it in the back of our minds.

 

Right now G0-T0 has a 15,000 thousand strong wall of death rushing towards his precious foundries... and something tells me he's not just going to let them roll over him in the name of 'stability.'

[Selenial]

I'd just like to make it clear here that G0-T0 has no choice but to destroy Malgus, whether he wants to or not. Regardless tune is correct, Malgus was a warmonger who believed that the galaxy had to be in a state of perpetual war because conflict is 'perfect' - G0-T0 doesn't know this, but it will come across in his aggressive and destructive tactics.

 

Also take into account that G0-T0 liked Revan's regime, but spat upon Malak's. Revan was efficient and effective who favored minimal conflict over infrastructure, while Malak went to hell with this and started destroying everything. Like Malak, Malgus is a very aggressive tactician, and G0-T0 will come to see him as a problem too.

 

I think the only thing that can be taken from this is that G0-T0s campaign is not going to be a highly destructive one, but seeing as his limited firepower makes him incapable of this, its really not an issue worth discussing.

 

Wow this argument derailed fast...

My original point was that G0-T0 and HK-01 won't get along... I'm not even going to continue this, just say it might be wise to look back on that because that was the only really important part.

[Selenial]

Selenial, I think, at this point, no one cares.

 

You're not convincing anyone. Just drop it.

 

I make a point - Warren Disagrees - Beni is on the fence - Automatically no one cares, moot point warren wins.

 

More sound logic from her royal majesty.

[Warren-Stride]

I make a point - Warren Disagrees - Beni is on the fence - Automatically no one cares, moot point warren wins.

 

More sound logic from her royal majesty.

 

I apologize if I was blunt or offensive.

 

That discussion was not constructive to the debate. What would you have liked to have been decided? That G0-T0 would let Malgus walk all over him? That HK-01 would take over G0-T0's mind/empire? Those scenarios are cop-outs to the larger debate. If what you are saying is accepted, there's no point in having this debate in the first place. Is that what you want? What other outcome would you foresee if your argument was considered to be true?

Edited September 1, 2013 by Warren-Stride

[Selenial]

I apologize if I was blunt or offensive.

 

That discussion was not constructive to the debate. What would you have liked to have been decided? That G0-T0 would let Malgus walk all over him? That HK-01 would take over G0-T0's mind/empire? Those scenarios are cop-outs to the larger debate. If what you are saying is accepted, there's no point in having this debate in the first place. Is that what you want? What other outcome would you foresee if your argument was considered to be true?

 

You were

 

Yes and No. Either HK-01 and G0-T0 butt heads, and at the First sign of defeat HK-01 takes over his mind, or that G0-T0 has to take counter measures to stop this from ever happening, ending up limiting HK-01's droid possession, to only Military targets.

 

Also, how close does HK-01 have to be? On planet? Near? Because that sort of means he has to be with the fleet if he ever wants to use it...