Tharan Cedrax's Attitude to the Force

[SwoopingLion]

Something doesn't make sense to me. Tharan is supposed to be a genius intellect and brilliant scientist is he not? I don't understand, then, why he's so continually sceptical of the Force and it's abilities/manifestations. It doesn't make sense. At first, fair enough, but no scientist who spends as long as he does with a Jedi like yours and witnesses what he does would possibly go against all the overwhelming evidence. For example (small spoiler):

by Voss, he is still sceptical of the Force's ability to heal.

 

 

I understand his dislike of your Consular's "spiritual mumbo jumbo", it's true that sometimes you seem to speak in unnecessarily airy and philosophical language but it seems strange that he continues to doubt the power of the Force.

[Helig]

Fancy yourself as more open-minded and intellectual than the "ignorant" and the "superstitious", demonstrate hostility to things beyond your ability to analyze, comprehend, or experience.

 

Yup, that's a Tharan.

 

Consider it a character flaw. Perfect characters are boring, anyway.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Helig

[SwoopingLion]

Fancy yourself as more open-minded and intellectual than the "ignorant" and the "superstitious", demonstrate hostility to things beyond your ability to analyze, comprehend, or experience.

 

Yup, that's a Tharan.

 

Consider it a character flaw. Perfect characters are boring, anyway.

 

I know he considers him self as such but I was under the impression that he was right to do so. I thought he was supposed to be some sort of eccentric genius, it seems someone with his implied level of analytical and critical thinking would be perfectly ready and able to accept the Force given he's seen so much of it in action. He's got plenty of flaws aside from his slight contradictory approach to the Force. Chief among these being his very vocal pacifism...

[Helig]

I know he considers him self as such but I was under the impression that he was right to do so. I thought he was supposed to be some sort of eccentric genius, it seems someone with his implied level of analytical and critical thinking would be perfectly ready and able to accept the Force given he's seen so much of it in action. He's got plenty of flaws aside from his slight contradictory approach to the Force. Chief among these being his very vocal pacifism...

I think this part of Tharan's character is somewhat of a nod at vocal/aggressive atheists.

 

I believe it doesn't really contradict his personality. He thinks he's a genius, he's an expert in the intellectual field. The spiritual field, to him, is a "there be dragons" mark on the map of comprehension. But, being a genius, he can't possibly accept that something is beyond his ability to understand.

 

Adds depth, if you ask me. He's a lot more interesting to me than the less contradictory characters.

[Xilizhra]

I think this part of Tharan's character is somewhat of a nod at vocal/aggressive atheists.

 

I believe it doesn't really contradict his personality. He thinks he's a genius, he's an expert in the intellectual field. The spiritual field, to him, is a "there be dragons" mark on the map of comprehension. But, being a genius, he can't possibly accept that something is beyond his ability to understand.

 

Adds depth, if you ask me. He's a lot more interesting to me than the less contradictory characters.

Except him being based on vocal atheists makes no damned sense, because Tharan is denying empirical evidence, which atheists don't have to do, because there is none for a single specific religion being the true one.

[Helig]

Except him being based on vocal atheists makes no damned sense, because Tharan is denying empirical evidence, which atheists don't have to do, because there is none for a single specific religion being the true one.

An allegory for something doesn't need to be a caricature. He's as close as they get. Besides, demanding physical proof of something immaterial is... illogical, at the very least. Tharan has physical proof, because of how the Force works in Star Wars, but he doesn't understand how it works. There is no math, there are no laws physics as he knows them, as he can perceive/measure them. His understanding of the Force reaches as far as physiological aspects of Force-usage go (like when he invented a weapon to counter mind-tricks, which attacks a part of the brain which activates when a Jedi uses the mind trick). Understandably, it pisses him off, because it disturbs the greater picture of his comprehension.

 

As far as I understand him, he's less opposed to Force-usage, as-is, and is mostly sceptical to mystical aspects of the Force, such as visions, destiny (things established as Star Wars canon). Also, his affinity for clever solutions may not sit well with some of the brute Force (capital F) displays, which the Consular is more than capable of.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Helig

[Xilizhra]

An allegory for something doesn't need to be a caricature. He's as close as they get. Besides, demanding physical proof of something immaterial is... illogical, at the very least. Tharan has physical proof, because of how the Force works in Star Wars, but he doesn't understand how it works. There is no math, there are no laws physics as he knows them, as he can perceive/measure them. His understanding of the Force reaches as far as physiological aspects of Force-usage go (like when he invented a weapon to counter mind-tricks, which attacks a part of the brain which activates when a Jedi uses the mind trick). Understandably, it pisses him off, because it disturbs the greater picture of his comprehension.

 

As far as I understand him, he's less opposed to Force-usage, as-is, and is mostly sceptical to mystical aspects of the Force, such as visions, destiny (things established as Star Wars canon). Also, his affinity for clever solutions may not sit well with some of the brute Force (capital F) displays, which the Consular is more than capable of.

Visions are measurable if you're tracking brain activity at that moment; they can be proven, just not planned ahead of time, which makes it difficult. Destiny is trickier, and trying to spot it is riddled with confirmation bias, so that might be impossible to prove.

 

And demanding physical proof for something immaterial may be illogical, but so in that case is using something immaterial to make decisions in the material world; if the immaterial is brought as a cause of things into the material, it must be assessed with the standards of the material.

[Helig]

Visions are measurable if you're tracking brain activity at that moment; they can be proven, just not planned ahead of time, which makes it difficult. Destiny is trickier, and trying to spot it is riddled with confirmation bias, so that might be impossible to prove.

 

And demanding physical proof for something immaterial may be illogical, but so in that case is using something immaterial to make decisions in the material world; if the immaterial is brought as a cause of things into the material, it must be assessed with the standards of the material.

I like how Jolee explained destiny in the Force in KotOR - if you're the Chosen one, you will stop the bad guy... but not necessarily in a way that you imagine you would. Instead of a glorious duel, you could fall into his ship's reactor and blow the entire vessel.

 

The thing about logic is - it shares the limitations of the human mind. Perfect logical solutions are attainable only when you have access to all the information, within the system which you are making the decision in. More often than not, especially when situations are complex, and there are factors outside the system that affect possible outcomes, one cannot make fully informed decisions without information. How material can values be? Humans didn't survive and become the dominant species on Earth because of sharp claws or impenetrable hides. Humans survived because basic herd instincts have developed into evolutionary values - values that ensure social integrity for the survival of the population/group (evolutionary altruism - according to Unto Others: The Evolution and Psychology of Unselfish Behavior by Elliott Sober and David Sloan Wilson).

Edited August 29, 2013 by Helig

[Allronix]

Okay, I'm probably one of the oddest ducks here because I maxed out with Tharan faster than any of my other crew (Yes, even Nadia and Felix). The guy is totally my Consular's lancer and second in charge.

 

Yes, he is a walking contradiction. He loves dalliances with pretty women while being completely devoted to one he can't touch. He puts up a good front of being a jaded, shallow, danger-adverse playboy with citizenship in neutral space...but volunteers himself and his lovely assistant to be right in the thick of the Republic/Empire mess. He's got a raging ego about his scientific prowess, and can back that ego up, but...

 

 

 

He builds a device thought impossible to actually construct, and then gives up eternal scientific fame so he can upgrade Holiday to full sentience, even knowing full well it could lead to her leaving him eventually.

 

 

 

He's fond of Master Syo and your Consular...yet squirms at the mention of the Force. But, each companion of the Consular is a different challenge; a very alien culture and mindset from a race that's usually an enemy (Qyzen), a girl with a Force ability of "yes" and no control over it (Nadia), a terrorist (let's be honest) who is not going to swayed by words of peace and harmony, but will be swayed by a chance to put a blaster shot between an Imperial's eyes (Zenith), and the necessary-but-sometimes-bumpy relations between the Order and the Republic military (Felix). Tharan's challenge is twofold; can you look at all the contradictions and see what's truth and what he likes to present? The second challenge is this; the Force is your ally, but can you get along without it? Can you also make allies of logic and reason?

 

Tharan trusts what he can see, hear, taste, touch, smell, run a scanner on, document and replicate. He may be a textbook Chaotic Neutral, but he is definitely a scientist. He also specializes in exotech, devices from lost civilizations and obscure corners of the galaxy. Some of that research probably brought him into contact with more than one cargo cult where the "experts" turned out to be silly priests worshiping the tech in question, which likely didn't help his attitude about mysticism. Furthermore, you and Master Syo are throwing around these amazing abilities all the time; lifting boulders, throwing people into walls, healing injuries...There is this entire field of scientific possibility being demonstrated right in front of him. How are Jedi able to do that? How are they lifting that rock? How are they healing that injury? How can this select group of people use their minds to override basic physical laws of the universe?

 

But the only people who can say anything about how it works are Jedi spouting fortune cookie quotes for all he understands them, or Sith who rarely are anything but completely bat-poop insane and ranting. Because he is not a Force Sensitive, he has been completely locked out of an entire, amazing field of knowledge. He can't even get close enough to analyze, study, and document what he does see because the Jedi are really stubborn about keeping their secrets. I can totally see why it infuriates him!

 

Oh, and Force Persuade? Yes, that is a major berserk button with him, even if you are using it to prevent violence (something he would normally approve). Think about it; instead of using logic and reason to present your perfectly reasonable case to get the enemy to stand down, you are instead drawing on those abilities he can't analyze or study, invading that other person's mind, and removing their capacity for reason by imposing your will on theirs. Now do you see why he would consider that horrifying?

[Xilizhra]

Okay, I'm probably one of the oddest ducks here because I maxed out with Tharan faster than any of my other crew (Yes, even Nadia and Felix). The guy is totally my Consular's lancer and second in charge.

 

Yes, he is a walking contradiction. He loves dalliances with pretty women while being completely devoted to one he can't touch. He puts up a good front of being a jaded, shallow, danger-adverse playboy with citizenship in neutral space...but volunteers himself and his lovely assistant to be right in the thick of the Republic/Empire mess. He's got a raging ego about his scientific prowess, and can back that ego up, but...

 

 

 

He builds a device thought impossible to actually construct, and then gives up eternal scientific fame so he can upgrade Holiday to full sentience, even knowing full well it could lead to her leaving him eventually.

 

 

 

He's fond of Master Syo and your Consular...yet squirms at the mention of the Force. But, each companion of the Consular is a different challenge; a very alien culture and mindset from a race that's usually an enemy (Qyzen), a girl with a Force ability of "yes" and no control over it (Nadia), a terrorist (let's be honest) who is not going to swayed by words of peace and harmony, but will be swayed by a chance to put a blaster shot between an Imperial's eyes (Zenith), and the necessary-but-sometimes-bumpy relations between the Order and the Republic military (Felix). Tharan's challenge is twofold; can you look at all the contradictions and see what's truth and what he likes to present? The second challenge is this; the Force is your ally, but can you get along without it? Can you also make allies of logic and reason?

 

Tharan trusts what he can see, hear, taste, touch, smell, run a scanner on, document and replicate. He may be a textbook Chaotic Neutral, but he is definitely a scientist. He also specializes in exotech, devices from lost civilizations and obscure corners of the galaxy. Some of that research probably brought him into contact with more than one cargo cult where the "experts" turned out to be silly priests worshiping the tech in question, which likely didn't help his attitude about mysticism. Furthermore, you and Master Syo are throwing around these amazing abilities all the time; lifting boulders, throwing people into walls, healing injuries...There is this entire field of scientific possibility being demonstrated right in front of him. How are Jedi able to do that? How are they lifting that rock? How are they healing that injury? How can this select group of people use their minds to override basic physical laws of the universe?

 

But the only people who can say anything about how it works are Jedi spouting fortune cookie quotes for all he understands them, or Sith who rarely are anything but completely bat-poop insane and ranting. Because he is not a Force Sensitive, he has been completely locked out of an entire, amazing field of knowledge. He can't even get close enough to analyze, study, and document what he does see because the Jedi are really stubborn about keeping their secrets. I can totally see why it infuriates him!

 

Oh, and Force Persuade? Yes, that is a major berserk button with him, even if you are using it to prevent violence (something he would normally approve). Think about it; instead of using logic and reason to present your perfectly reasonable case to get the enemy to stand down, you are instead drawing on those abilities he can't analyze or study, invading that other person's mind, and removing their capacity for reason by imposing your will on theirs. Now do you see why he would consider that horrifying?

You wrote the TVTropes entries on him, didn't you? Either that or C/Ped them.

I haven't gotten to him yet, but do you ever get to explain to him just why the keeping of the Jedi's secrets are necessary? I mean, I'd be fine with him trying to build Force analysis machines to look at me personally (my consular's a bit loose with Order rules sometimes; the only reason I tattled on the two lovers is because I resented their attempt to bribe me instead of persuade me with sound reasoning, in addition to the probability that the masters would find out some other way in the near future). However, I find his disapproval of Force persuasion to be slightly silly because it's only a short and temporary lapse of their reasoning power, as opposed to the far more permanent condition they'd be afflicted with if my regular persuasion failed and I had to kill them.

[Allronix]

You wrote the TVTropes entries on him, didn't you? Either that or C/Ped them.

I haven't gotten to him yet, but do you ever get to explain to him just why the keeping of the Jedi's secrets are necessary? I mean, I'd be fine with him trying to build Force analysis machines to look at me personally (my consular's a bit loose with Order rules sometimes; the only reason I tattled on the two lovers is because I resented their attempt to bribe me instead of persuade me with sound reasoning, in addition to the probability that the masters would find out some other way in the near future). However, I find his disapproval of Force persuasion to be slightly silly because it's only a short and temporary lapse of their reasoning power, as opposed to the far more permanent condition they'd be afflicted with if my regular persuasion failed and I had to kill them.

 

Guilty as charged. I put most of that under the "Fridge Brilliance" section, as well as noting why Felix would have been experimented on, as well as a huge rant about why Revan "tempering" the Emperor was a self-delusional piece of total BS. (The Treaty of Coruscant ensures a long war of attrition, which keeps the Darths occupied, and Revan's plans for the Foundry would have wiped out about 98% of the Republic as well, which plays right into the hands of the Emperor's grander plan to kill everything but himself). I've contributed heavily to the Consular's subsection of the character page as well.

[Xilizhra]

Guilty as charged. I put most of that under the "Fridge Brilliance" section, as well as noting why Felix would have been experimented on, as well as a huge rant about why Revan "tempering" the Emperor was a self-delusional piece of total BS. (The Treaty of Coruscant ensures a long war of attrition, which keeps the Darths occupied, and Revan's plans for the Foundry would have wiped out about 98% of the Republic as well, which plays right into the hands of the Emperor's grander plan to kill everything but himself). I've contributed heavily to the Consular's subsection of the character page as well.

I don't think the math works out there, given that the Republic has far higher species diversity than the Empire, and that Sith presumably aren't asari in their breeding capabilities. And wouldn't the Emperor be an early target in any such plan? For that matter, were the Sith so Genghis Khan-esque that their bloodline was spread that far beyond their own borders that it's hit the entire human population of the Republic?

[Helig]

Okay, I'm probably one of the oddest ducks here because I maxed out with Tharan faster than any of my other crew (Yes, even Nadia and Felix). The guy is totally my Consular's lancer and second in charge.

 

 

Yes, he is a walking contradiction. He loves dalliances with pretty women while being completely devoted to one he can't touch. He puts up a good front of being a jaded, shallow, danger-adverse playboy with citizenship in neutral space...but volunteers himself and his lovely assistant to be right in the thick of the Republic/Empire mess. He's got a raging ego about his scientific prowess, and can back that ego up, but...

 

 

 

He builds a device thought impossible to actually construct, and then gives up eternal scientific fame so he can upgrade Holiday to full sentience, even knowing full well it could lead to her leaving him eventually.

 

 

 

He's fond of Master Syo and your Consular...yet squirms at the mention of the Force. But, each companion of the Consular is a different challenge; a very alien culture and mindset from a race that's usually an enemy (Qyzen), a girl with a Force ability of "yes" and no control over it (Nadia), a terrorist (let's be honest) who is not going to swayed by words of peace and harmony, but will be swayed by a chance to put a blaster shot between an Imperial's eyes (Zenith), and the necessary-but-sometimes-bumpy relations between the Order and the Republic military (Felix). Tharan's challenge is twofold; can you look at all the contradictions and see what's truth and what he likes to present? The second challenge is this; the Force is your ally, but can you get along without it? Can you also make allies of logic and reason?

 

Tharan trusts what he can see, hear, taste, touch, smell, run a scanner on, document and replicate. He may be a textbook Chaotic Neutral, but he is definitely a scientist. He also specializes in exotech, devices from lost civilizations and obscure corners of the galaxy. Some of that research probably brought him into contact with more than one cargo cult where the "experts" turned out to be silly priests worshiping the tech in question, which likely didn't help his attitude about mysticism. Furthermore, you and Master Syo are throwing around these amazing abilities all the time; lifting boulders, throwing people into walls, healing injuries...There is this entire field of scientific possibility being demonstrated right in front of him. How are Jedi able to do that? How are they lifting that rock? How are they healing that injury? How can this select group of people use their minds to override basic physical laws of the universe?

 

But the only people who can say anything about how it works are Jedi spouting fortune cookie quotes for all he understands them, or Sith who rarely are anything but completely bat-poop insane and ranting. Because he is not a Force Sensitive, he has been completely locked out of an entire, amazing field of knowledge. He can't even get close enough to analyze, study, and document what he does see because the Jedi are really stubborn about keeping their secrets. I can totally see why it infuriates him!

 

Oh, and Force Persuade? Yes, that is a major berserk button with him, even if you are using it to prevent violence (something he would normally approve). Think about it; instead of using logic and reason to present your perfectly reasonable case to get the enemy to stand down, you are instead drawing on those abilities he can't analyze or study, invading that other person's mind, and removing their capacity for reason by imposing your will on theirs. Now do you see why he would consider that horrifying?

I have two Consulars - an "angelic LS" Sage healer, and a "Pragmatic/straightforward dark-Grey" Shadow, and it is very, very fun to see how they both interact with different companions. Might not be polar opposite in everything, but the difference is very striking with both, Quizen and Tharan.

 

Should you roll another Consular, give another behavioural paradigm a spin!

Guilty as charged. I put most of that under the "Fridge Brilliance" section, as well as noting why Felix would have been experimented on, as well as a huge rant about why Revan "tempering" the Emperor was a self-delusional piece of total BS. (The Treaty of Coruscant ensures a long war of attrition, which keeps the Darths occupied, and Revan's plans for the Foundry would have wiped out about 98% of the Republic as well, which plays right into the hands of the Emperor's grander plan to kill everything but himself). I've contributed heavily to the Consular's subsection of the character page as well.

Didn't the droid mention that only 98% of the Imperial population has Sith genetic trace?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Helig

[SwoopingLion]

Except him being based on vocal atheists makes no damned sense, because Tharan is denying empirical evidence, which atheists don't have to do, because there is none for a single specific religion being the true one.

 

Yeh, this is exactly what I was getting at. No one with his scientific aptitude would remain so wilfully ignorant of something so obviously real.

 

I think BW's desire to create a sort of Force sceptic character to go with the Consular was a good idea, it's a nice quirk. It just doesn't sit that they made him a genius too. Opposition of similar faith IRL is based on lack of evidence, Tharan has plenty of evidence. I think they could have just left that degree of scepticism out of his character. The disdain for your PC's often over the top "spirituality" when talking to or advising people who clearly don't subscribe to your way of life is good enough. His -3's whenever I tell someone that they need to be calm and trust in their emotions makes sense to me, just not his frequent "lol I don't think the Force can do that"-esque comments.

[Allronix]

Think of how much side-swapping, defections, redemptions, and hidden legacies happen in that universe. Your companions alone attest to that. Dorne was Imperial Army, Kira was born on Korriban, Akaavi's clan were Imperial loyalists. Scourge is...Scourge. And the Consular

 

 

 

Has a whole network of "Emperor's children" to deal with, most who have lived their lives as loyal Republic citizens

 

 

 

 

Furthermore. the Emperor doesn't give a bantha's fart about his own Empire. He's pretty much immune to aging and just wants everything to die except himself. What's the better tactic to achieve that, a curb stomp of the Republic that will leave his Darths bored, battle-thirsty, and open to challenge him? Or a treaty with the approximate worth and useage of toilet paper that all but guarantees a long-running war of attrition with massive casualties on both sides to kill off what an army of Foundry droids manage to miss?

 

But I've got another thread on that topic

 

The only reason I tattled on the two lovers is because I resented their attempt to bribe me instead of persuade me with sound reasoning, in addition to the probability that the masters would find out some other way in the near future). However, I find his disapproval of Force persuasion to be slightly silly because it's only a short and temporary lapse of their reasoning power, as opposed to the far more permanent condition they'd be afflicted with if my regular persuasion failed and I had to kill them.

 

 

Yeah, same here with the sweethearts. Bribery is a big no-no. Also, it did come across as infatuated teenagers, not the temperance you'd need to have with the "controlling your passions while being in love" idea.

 

And the disapproval isn't silly. If Consular's enemy doesn't listen to reason backed up with a lightsaber pointed at them? Well, unfortunately, if the enemy's lack of ability to listen to reason results in a fatality, then it is a regrettable choice on their part. (He is a product of Nar Shadaa, after all, a planet where credits are plenty and life is cheap)

 

I ran Malestrom with him as the party healer, and was pleasantly surprised when I found you could get approval with him.

 

 

 

 

1) He does approve when you tell Oteg to fall back, despite it putting him in some added danger. The man does not like proacted fighting when smart tactics are an option.

 

2) If you tell Killran he's acting irrationally at the terminal and at the boss fight, you also score points with him. 58 points a shot! Yes, Killran starts shooting regardless, but it was the Moff's choice to let bloodlust overrule common sense.

 

3) He also approves if your reaction to the plague-added Tatooine master is "You're hopeless [Attack]." Unlike Duras Fain and the Alderaan master, the one on Tatooine was clearly past the point where he could be reasoned with or talked down.

 

 

[Xilizhra]

And the disapproval isn't silly. If Consular's enemy doesn't listen to reason backed up with a lightsaber pointed at them? Well, unfortunately, if the enemy's lack of ability to listen to reason results in a fatality, then it is a regrettable choice on their part. (He is a product of Nar Shadaa, after all, a planet where credits are plenty and life is cheap)

If someone's misused reasoning to such an extent that they're trying to kill me and not listening to attempts to defuse the situation, I don't really see them as having a right to continue using it. Especially since my control is temporary.

[SwoopingLion]

If someone's misused reasoning to such an extent that they're trying to kill me and not listening to attempts to defuse the situation, I don't really see them as having a right to continue using it. Especially since my control is temporary.

 

To be fair, his disapproval of using Force persuasion is entirely his own personal preference. There's nothing that suggests he'd likely be ok with you using it. If he was disapproving because he didn't think it worked, that would be much more akin to the issue I have with his character.

 

Plus, to be fair, reasoning is subjective. From your Consular's point of view reason might dictate that you should all lay down arms and have a nice chat, whereas whatever desperate soul you're trying to talk down might apply very sound logical principles and come to the conclusion that their best move is to kill you and leg it. Keep in mind most people probably won't believe your promise of a "peaceful solution" when you're essentially the mouthpiece of the Republic and you've got a whacking great double bladed lightsaber in your hand.

 

Using the Force to impose your version of a logical conclusion might not sit well with Tharan.

Edited August 30, 2013 by SwoopingLion

[Allronix]

The Mind Trick is ethically dubious, even when used for "good" reasons. The Force wielder is still invading the mind of another without their consent, eradicating their knowledge that they are being manipulated, and the caster is overriding the will of another by imposing their own on another sentient life form. Even under the best of circumstances and intentions, it skates pretty close to the Dark Side.

 

Can it be used to save lives? Sure. Using it in the False Emperor flashpoint stops someone from blasting a capitol ship. Jolee Bindo uses it to trick a guard into freeing him and locking himself up so he can rescue the party. Can it be abused in the worst possible way? Heck, yes. KOTOR 2 has a first-rate moment where a Dark Side Exile can literally Force someone to jump to their deaths! If you play KOTOR 1 on the Dark Side, you can convince one party member to kill his closest friend (a teenaged Twi'lek that pretty much gets reincarnated as Vette)! As explained 3000 years later by Master Yareel Poof:

 

"While this guard may prove to be an obstacle on your mission, he is also a living being. He may not be menacing by nature, merely an employee or servant. He may have a family, others who care about him. Had you met him under different circumstances, you might have discovered him to be a friend and ally. What to do, then? Make the guard see you as a small, nonthreatening creature? Make him go to sleep, or forget he saw you at all? Hypnotically suggest that you have leapt away from where you are standing, and encourage the guard to chase the apparition you have created? Project a frightening image that will cause him to flee? All these things could very well work, young Jedi, but have you considered the consequences? What if the guard enjoys shooting at small, nonthreatening creatures? What if his species is physically incapable of sleep? What if he forgets he saw you, but the fact that he even unwittingly allowed you to pass will cost him his job or his life? What physical trauma will he suffer if he chases your apparition into a wall of solid rock? What if you strike such fear in him that he dies on the spot, or forgets the nature of gravity as he tries to escape over the edge of the nearest cliff?"

 

Again, the Mind trick, even when the intention is the greater good, has a lot of potential for abuse, and it's still a willful invasion of another person's mind and override of their capacity for independent, rational thought. For someone who values rational thought and logical solutions as much as Dr. Cedrax, the trade-off is not worth it.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Allronix

[Helig]

The Mind Trick is ethically dubious, even when used for "good" reasons. The Force wielder is still invading the mind of another without their consent, eradicating their knowledge that they are being manipulated, and the caster is overriding the will of another by imposing their own on another sentient life form. Even under the best of circumstances and intentions, it skates pretty close to the Dark Side. <........>

Again, the Mind trick, even when the intention is the greater good, has a lot of potential for abuse, and it's still a willful invasion of another person's mind and override of their capacity for independent, rational thought. For someone who values rational thought and logical solutions as much as Dr. Cedrax, the trade-off is not worth it.

The mind trick is just like any tool, or weapon, really. It is used when there is its time and its. You can decapitate someone with a lightsaber, cut through them from shoulder to hip, run them through. Or you can disarm them, disable them with non life-threatening cuts.

 

Same with the mind trick. Can ramp it up to Dread Masters level, causing permanent insanity, or death. You can invade their mind and do something that they wouldn't normally do. Or you can mess with their perception a little, cause a small lapse of consciousness - like when a person sometimes finds themselves blankly staring at one spot, oblivious to their surroundings.

 

Same with technological gadgets, which Tharan enjoys so much. He is just cranky that it's beyond his full ability to comprehend, and he feels threatened by it.

[Master-Nala]

I've never understood Tharan to disbelieve in the Force or its ability to affect the physical world. I think Tharan instead believes that the Force is simply a manifestation of superhuman abilities in a subset of the population. And that he wishes that those users didn't try to be mysterious about it or use their power over the populace.

 

If they were ever to expand the class stories, I wouldn't be shocked to find out that Tharan is a member of the

Star Cabal.

 

[Allronix]

Oh, wow. That would explain just about everything, wouldn't it? It would actually explain a lot about his attitude regarding the Force (he'll acknowledge it exists, but the fact ordinary folks are locked out of understanding something so huge explains his resentment). It would explain why he was keeping tabs on Duras Fain's cult, or why he was friends with Master Syo. It would explain perfectly why he invited himself on the Consular's boat and deciding to stick around, despite having zero stakes in the quest they're on past Nar Shadaa, being a citizen of Hutt Space (neutral territory in the war), and not being particularly fond of the Consular at that point.

 

It's also the opportunity of a lifetime; when is a scientist like him going to get that close to a couple high-ranking Jedi, maybe get them to let their guard down enough to do some brain scans or other analysis of their abilities and weaknesses?

 

But I'd also imagine that he'd have a case of divided loyalties after a while. The general theory of that group espouses Atton Rand's idea of "Sith, Jedi...men and women fighting over religion while the galaxy burns," and pretty much wants both Force schools either severely de-fanged or outright destroyed. Tharan would probably agree with that wholeheartedly in theory, but in practice? He is very fond of Syo Bakarn...

 

 

 

Enough to pretty much tell the First Son to his face to bugger off and let his friend go.You can get an obscene amount of influence points with Tharan if you have him with you on Corellia and encourage Syo to fight the possession.

 

 

 

And he also can become equally fond of your Consular. And in traveling with the Consular, he probably gets a good look at the Sith. While the Jedi can be cold, secretive, and have a first-rate arrogance? The Sith are all these and usually irrational to boot.

 

Now I so want this as an expanded Class Quest for Tharan. Failing that, it's going to make first-rate fanfic material! I've got to put this under the Wild Mass Guessing at TV Tropes now, too...

[Dan_Loto]

If they were ever to expand the class stories, I wouldn't be shocked to find out that Tharan is a member of the

Star Cabal.

 

I love this idea! Even if he changes his mind over the course of his adventure with a lighter consular. Wow.