Proposed Dev Juggernaut Questions *Not Final*

[paowee]

I played and parsed on the Jugg DPS for ~half of HM TFB when it first came out and meh, i don't really like the pve question :|. But whatever haha. Dunno if any of the pre-1.7 juggs are still around and posting here. Anywho Good luck to you guys and hopefully you don't get answers like the sorcs got.

 

o.t. havent seen andrewpast and mattmonkey around these parts ?_? do they still play?

 

edit: also mauulll is back from his hiatus lol http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6681276&postcount=319

Edited August 29, 2013 by paowee

[lazerxxx]

I played and parsed on the Jugg DPS for ~half of HM TFB when it first came out and meh, i don't really like the pve question :|. But whatever haha. Dunno if any of the pre-1.7 juggs are still around and posting here. Anywho Good luck to you guys and hopefully you don't get answers like the sorcs got.

 

o.t. havent seen andrewpast and mattmonkey around these parts ?_? do they still play?

 

edit: also mauulll is back from his hiatus lol http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6681276&postcount=319

 

mattmonkey quit, i dunno about andrewpast.

Edited August 29, 2013 by lazerxxx

[ArenCordial]

In regards to the PvP question: We probably shouldn't be telling the BW team how to fix the problem is concern I have the PvP question. I think it would be easier and shorter for us just to point out its a very awkward ability with Rage requirement and ask them to revisit the ability.

 

In regards to the PvE question: We'll I've said before its not going to get us much. I'm with Marb and KD that any answer to that question isn't going to do us any good. Another question probably aught to be considered.

[Marb]

PvP) Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, it is underwhelming as a defensive cooldown for Rage Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive (in rage cost) for dps Juggernauts.

 

Would the team consider revisiting Enraged Defense's design, perhaps improving the defensive benefits for the Rage spec, and removing its current rage cost/rage consumption effect?

 

________

 

 

PvE) Vengeance can't reliably refresh Ravage, as both Impale and Shatter have notable cooldowns and rage costs accompanied with low proc chances (30%). Outside of Impale and Shatter, there is no way to trigger Rampage. We feel that if we could rely more on this proc firing when we need it, our damage would be more consistent and reliable between encounters.

 

The variability in our damage output from parse to parse is a point of concern with Vengeance. Would the team be willing to examine the way Vengeance is currently restricted by RnG chances on refreshing ravage, and perhaps explore ways of improving the consistency of rampage procs?

Edited September 2, 2013 by Marb

[UndyingHadyn]

With this in mind I drafted up cut down versions of the general and PvE question. General covers Enraged Defense with PvE covering Vengeance's playstyle conflict with operations. I think this would be a better format, and would liberate the enraged defense concern from the PvP question, leaving it open for something new.

________

 

PvE) Vengeance doesn't translate very well to a live operation environment, where the reliance on a channeled melee ability (Ravage) is consistently punished due to encounter design. Additionally, Vengeance can't reliably refresh Ravage, as both Impale and Shatter have notable cooldowns and rage costs accompanied with low proc chances (30%). Outside of Impale and Shatter, there is no way to trigger Rampage.

 

Would the combat team consider making some changes (like faster ravage channel and improved proc chances) to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in a dynamic operation environment?

________

 

General) Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, it is still dubious to use as a defensive cooldown for non-Vengeance Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive (in rage cost) for either dps spec to use as a threat drop.

 

Would the team consider removing the rage cost and rage consumption effect from Enraged Defense? Additionally, would improving the ability for other Juggernaut specs outside of Vengeance be something to consider as well?

________

 

PvP) ??

 

 

Marb baby. We got it all wrong here. There is nothing wrong with the rage cost of Enraged Defense, provided the ability grants redeemable value. We need to focus on the vengeance tree as an example and request specific changes granted for the rage and immortal trees. Simply requesting a free "lacklustre" ability isn't good, we should aim for specific benefits.

 

The pve/general/pvp questions are so hilariously and harmoniously linked, it's almost laughable.

 

Also. Quit being so damn polite you guys. We have specific questions here ! Quit beating around the bush typing novels, grow a pair of balls, and get to the point dammit!!!

[Zunayson]

The only big issue I see is that in PvE, Enraged Defense is simply useless in all specs. It isn't strong because after the initial (4 rage cost) tick threat should be back on the tank and the rest is wasted, if a boss does hit us the heal will do absolutely nothing to relieve pressure off of healers, using it absolutely rage-starves us. Add to that that a simple Guard usually will prevent us from pulling (even if it would be better served on a different DPS) and that the only reason most Vengeance DPS spec into it is that Seething Hatred is worthless in PvE encounters since the fights are invariably longer than the CD of either Saber Throw or Force Charge and its absolute worthlessness just grows exponentially. I can't speak to PvP but that is PvE.

 

It's useful, because the more the boss hits you, the more threat you dump, and the more you heal. It can be up to 30%, which, even over the course of 10 seconds, is not "absolutely nothing." Agreed about the rage starve though...

[ArenCordial]

PvP) ??

PvP

 

Out of all the classes in the game, the Juggernaut hold the distinction of being the only advanced class that lacks an offensive cooldown.

 

Question: Was the lack of an offensive cooldown an oversight? Would the developers consider granting one to the Juggernaut so as to match the other classes’ ability to bring a little extra on demand burst?

 

----------------------------------

This could really go anyway, PvP, PvE, or General. I don't think the devs are going to be able to say the Jugg DPS is just that good that every other class can have an offensive CD but us.

Edited August 29, 2013 by ArenCordial

[kennethdale]

Honestly, as a PvE player, I'm not too fond of the PvP question but I suppose the threat drop issue can be tackles with the Guardian questions.

[Thundernuts]

I think succinct and pointed questions will serve a much better purpose.

 

For example, Enraged Defense does not seem to fit properly with all specs. Would you're team be willing to rework this ability to fit each spec more specifically and if so, what are the potential options we could see?

 

And tomorrow is the big day.

[Marb]

Marb baby. We got it all wrong here. There is nothing wrong with the rage cost of Enraged Defense, provided the ability grants redeemable value. We need to focus on the vengeance tree as an example and request specific changes granted for the rage and immortal trees. Simply requesting a free "lacklustre" ability isn't good, we should aim for specific benefits.

 

The pve/general/pvp questions are so hilariously and harmoniously linked, it's almost laughable.

 

Also. Quit being so damn polite you guys. We have specific questions here ! Quit beating around the bush typing novels, grow a pair of balls, and get to the point dammit!!!

 

Even if it was a saber ward with a 1 minute cooldown, I would still squint every time using it in PvE because of that rage cost. Also remember that if they removed the rage cost, they would have to revamp "From Passion" in the rage tree anyway. The only spec this would neglect is Immortal, and that is a good thing. This is the question subtly rephrased, placing a greater emphasis on how crap it is as a defensive cooldown for rage:

 

General) Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, it is underwhelming as a defensive cooldown for Rage Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive (in rage cost) for dps Juggernauts to use as a threat drop.

 

Would the team consider revisiting Enraged Defense's design, perhaps improving the defensive benefits for the Rage spec, and removing its current rage cost/rage consumption effect?

 

PvP

 

Out of all the classes in the game, the Juggernaut hold the distinction of being the only advanced class that lacks an offensive cooldown.

 

Question: Was the lack of an offensive cooldown an oversight? Would the developers consider granting one to the Juggernaut so as to match the other classes’ ability to bring a little extra on demand burst?

 

----------------------------------

This could really go anyway, PvP, PvE, or General. I don't think the devs are going to be able to say the Jugg DPS is just that good that every other class can have an offensive CD but us.

I really like this question, as long as the PvP people understand that adding a whole new ability like this would be more of an expansion sort of thing in its scope. It would really pay for the PvP juggs to decide what the most important priority is for them, if enraged defense and vengeance are being covered already (even if they have PvE implications, changes to either of those would have flow-on PvP benefits as well.)

 

There is the potential here to knock out a lot more of our issues if we use each category like this.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Marb

[ArenCordial]

PvP) Out of all the classes in the game, the Juggernaut holds the distinction of being one of the few advanced classes that lacks an offensive cooldown.

 

Was the lack of an offensive cooldown an oversight? Would the developers consider granting one to the Juggernaut so as to match the other classes’ ability to bring a little extra on demand burst?

________

 

PvE) Vengeance doesn't translate very well to a live operation environment, where the reliance on a channeled melee ability (Ravage) is consistently punished due to encounter design. Additionally, Vengeance can't reliably refresh Ravage, as both Impale and Shatter have notable cooldowns and rage costs accompanied with low proc chances (30%). Outside of Impale and Shatter, there is no way to trigger Rampage.

 

Would the combat team consider making some changes (like faster ravage channel and improved proc chances) to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in a dynamic operation environment?

________

 

General) Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, it is still dubious to use as a defensive cooldown for non-Vengeance Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive (in rage cost) for either dps spec to use as a threat drop.

 

Would the team consider removing the rage cost and rage consumption effect from Enraged Defense? Additionally, would improving the ability for other Juggernaut specs outside of Vengeance be something to consider as well?

 

I say go with these revisions. They are short, sweet, and to the point. They avoid potentially offensive words like sub-par which could make the devs less inclined to see our reasoning. They hit several points that could maximize the classes' future gain. The current PvE question I don't think gets us anything and the other two questions have been slimmed down by Marb.

Edited August 30, 2013 by ArenCordial

[UndyingHadyn]

PvP) Out of all the classes in the game, the Juggernaut holds the distinction of being one of the few advanced classes that lacks an offensive cooldown.

 

Was the lack of an offensive cooldown an oversight? Would the developers consider granting one to the Juggernaut so as to match the other classes’ ability to bring a little extra on demand burst?

________

 

PvE) Vengeance doesn't translate very well to a live operation environment, where the reliance on a channeled melee ability (Ravage) is consistently punished due to encounter design. Additionally, Vengeance can't reliably refresh Ravage, as both Impale and Shatter have notable cooldowns and rage costs accompanied with low proc chances (30%). Outside of Impale and Shatter, there is no way to trigger Rampage.

 

Would the combat team consider making some changes (like faster ravage channel and improved proc chances) to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in a dynamic operation environment?

________

 

General) Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, it is still dubious to use as a defensive cooldown for non-Vengeance Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive (in rage cost) for either dps spec to use as a threat drop.

 

Would the team consider removing the rage cost and rage consumption effect from Enraged Defense? Additionally, would improving the ability for other Juggernaut specs outside of Vengeance be something to consider as well?

 

For the pvp question, Marb. Please reword the utility to include a suggestion for a temporary "shield break". What I mean by that is select "seething hatred" for example and specifically ask for a short window that enables vengeance jugs a few seconds to burst through shields.

 

I think if we do not get specific with this, and merely ask for some utility, they'll say..."Guys you have some already". Asking for an alacrity buff is too grand. Crit buffs are kool, but if a healer knows that a vengeance jug has a temporary ability to remove a shield...

 

This ability would not break the game. It would also couple with the pve attributes of seething hatred quite nicely.

 

Asking for a specific and concise utility will force them to consider it. It's 50-50. Either they love it or hate it.

 

As a pvp vengeance jug, if I could feat into an ability to break a shield, even if temporary, it would act as an incredible burst tool. All the while, there would not be any need for a revamp of the entire tree.

 

 

 

Please reword and include this new suggestion. When you do so, I'll personally stamp it with your other questions. and place it in a new thread. To hell with our rep.

[Marb]

For the pvp question, Marb. Please reword the utility to include a suggestion for a temporary "shield break". What I mean by that is select "seething hatred" for example and specifically ask for a short window that enables vengeance jugs a few seconds to burst through shields.

 

I think if we do not get specific with this, and merely ask for some utility, they'll say..."Guys you have some already". Asking for an alacrity buff is too grand. Crit buffs are kool, but if a healer knows that a vengeance jug has a temporary ability to remove a shield...

 

This ability would not break the game. It would also couple with the pve attributes of seething hatred quite nicely.

 

Asking for a specific and concise utility will force them to consider it. It's 50-50. Either they love it or hate it.

 

As a pvp vengeance jug, if I could feat into an ability to break a shield, even if temporary, it would act as an incredible burst tool. All the while, there would not be any need for a revamp of the entire tree.

 

 

 

Please reword and include this new suggestion. When you do so, I'll personally stamp it with your other questions. and place it in a new thread. To hell with our rep.

 

I'm just concerned that being that specific, even though its with good reason, isn't going to get the kind of response that we expect. The PvP guys in this thread have expressed a strong desire to see the staying power of both dps specs improved in PvP (by zoning in on improving enraged defense as a defensive cooldown).

 

Marlfox is right in that the PvP question should reflect the concerns of the PvP base exclusively, I would just motion them to drop the enraged defense focus, and instead frame a brand new question about their specific PvP concerns.

 

Sooner rather then later would be good too.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Marb

[ArenCordial]

Marb,

 

I think you might want to change to word few to only in the PvP question. Everyone's got one but us. I messed that up when thinking of the question.

Edited August 30, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Marb]

Marb,

 

I think you might want to change to word few to only in the PvP question. Everyone's got one but us. I messed that up when thinking of the question.

 

Actually I ninja edited that, only because I thought operatives didn't have one as well. I'm not sure though.

[ArenCordial]

Actually I ninja edited that, only because I thought operatives didn't have one as well. I'm not sure though.

 

Stim Boost kinda counts in my mind. Gives them tactical adv and an alac buff. Not the best mind you but its something.

[Marb]

PvP) Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, we feel it's underwhelming as a defensive cooldown for Rage Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive (in rage cost) for all Juggernaut specs.

 

Would the team consider revisiting Enraged Defense's design, perhaps improving the defensive benefits for the Rage spec in addition to removing its current rage cost/rage consumption effect for all specs?

 

________

 

 

PvE) Vengeance can't reliably refresh Ravage, as both Impale and Shatter have notable cooldowns and rage costs accompanied with low proc chances (30%). Outside of Impale and Shatter, there is no way to trigger Rampage. PvE juggs feel that if we could rely more on this proc firing when we need it, our damage would be more consistent and reliable between encounters

 

The variability in our damage output from parse to parse is a point of concern with Vengeance Juggs. Would the team be willing to examine the way Vengeance is currently restricted by RnG chances on our main damaging ability, and perhaps explore ways of improving the consistency of our damage?

 

________

 

 

General) Out of all the classes in the game, the Juggernaut holds the distinction of being the only advanced class that lacks an offensive cooldown in a literal sense. Enrage gives more rage, but doesn't feel very interesting and has no secondary dps benefit.

 

What are the reasons for this design choice? Would adding an interesting secondary effect onto Enrage (or perhaps a new offensive cooldown) be an addition the devs would consider for the future?

Edited September 2, 2013 by Marb

[Thundernuts]

I can speak for the PVP tank aspect, and we do not need it. We have unbelievable CD's as it is. Adding this to the immortal spec would be too much. I don't know about the dps side of things.

[ArenCordial]

[ ~PvP Juggs really need to chime in on this one. Does this represent the PvP communities primary concern? Keep in mind the PvP implications of the general question.

 

I both PvP and PvE. The reason I brought this up is primarily I think it helps in both realms of play. Right now we have 2 really great specs for PvP. Immortal is the spec right now for tanks in both PvP and PvE. The cooldowns are fantastic and it holds up really well.

 

Rage is THE PvP spec. No other class has the burst this one does. The only weakness is that it can be a little squishy at times. This is addressed in the Enraged Defense question so quite frankly, not much needs to be done here. I'd say for DPS specs we have the top 3 with: Rage Marauders, Sniper, Rage Jugg. That's not a bad place to be. Yes Rage Marauders are better than Rage Juggs with their cooldowns but still I don't think it really fair to whine too much because they are blatantly OP. If ED actually becomes useful then we'll have even less to whine about.

 

The only real weakness is Vengeance. Its a pretty good 1 v1 spec in my experience but how its set up really isn't designed for PvP, as I think the devs intended this as the PvE sustained dmg spec. Its 2 problems are: Ravage being handicapped and easily countered/not enough procs and the fact its not got the burst needed to PvP. That first issue is addressed in PvE question. So that just leaves the burst problem. It hurt losing the auto-crit Vicious Throw but with Destroyer Procs I see that could be a problem if it had remained. So this really is a design goal for the devs to think about. What do they want Veng to be identity wise. Hopefully an Offensive CD will help a little with the later problem.

 

Still having 2/3 of the best PvP classes in the game is great for this class. Getting a little extra burst is something that can help all 3 specs in PvP and when the eventual nerf to Rage does come an offensive CD may help it remain competitive.

Edited August 30, 2013 by ArenCordial

[UndyingHadyn]

I'm just concerned that being that specific, even though its with good reason, isn't going to get the kind of response that we expect. The PvP guys in this thread have expressed a strong desire to see the staying power of both dps specs improved in PvP (by zoning in on improving enraged defense as a defensive cooldown).

 

Marlfox is right in that the PvP question should reflect the concerns of the PvP base exclusively, I would just motion them to drop the enraged defense focus, and instead frame a brand new question about their specific PvP concerns.

 

Sooner rather then later would be good too.

 

No offense, but read my post there again. How is an ability(feated in vengeance tree with seething hatred) designed to temporarily remove a player applied shield, not a pvp question?

[Thundernuts]

When do you plan to pose these questions? Do we have until the end of the day?

[Marb]

No offense, but read my post there again. How is an ability(feated in vengeance tree with seething hatred) designed to temporarily remove a player applied shield, not a pvp question?

 

None taken. I didn't mean to be dismissive, I am just not sure how to make that into an easily digestible question while keeping it short AND covering an offensive cooldown. I like to think having an offensive cooldown would help with bursting through sorc bubbles, so I see a bit of a potential overlap here. Would adding some sort of interesting secondary effect onto Enrage be an alternative implementation?

 

I am seeing a way something like what you are describing could be mentioned as an example in the pvp question, but devoting the entire question to it would be alienating those concerned with the lack of an offensive cooldown in return for a 50/50 gamble at a specific unique utility suggestion.

 

Could you put what you have in mind into a question as an example? By shield break I assume you mean sorc bubble break? or do you mean breaking force barrier? or ignoring a players shield chance?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Marb

[Marb]

When do you plan to pose these questions? Do we have until the end of the day?

 

Its on Marlfox to decide on the final three, we are just groupies.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Marb

[Thundernuts]

Its on Marlfox to decide on the final three, we are just groupies.

 

I only ask, because today is the day. And I was curious if/when he would post the final questions, as presented to the devs.

[Treblt]

As a PvP'er that does play at the highest level of competition-

 

Asking for an offensive CD for a jugg is NOT a good idea for a PvP question. In PvP they have some insane damage output, asking for more is not what is required for the class to be usable in high level play. I would gladly trade some of the damage to have an even slightly better Enraged Defense, and so I view that as being the important question for PvP.

 

Vengeance in arenas is good, but needs no Rage cost on ED. Rage in Arenas is ok- but needs a slight bit more defensives as 3 minute CD's / 1 minute 3 second Reflect are NOT good for arena. I'd like to see ED have buffed healing in Rage tree with no rage cost as a baseline effect as well.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Treblt