Is a shadow viable for op's dps slot?

[Caravas]

I'm just getting my shadow into 50's and looking to gear up for ops but am getting a negative reaction from guild on using a shadow for a dps slot in raid. Can we not generate the dps required like the regular dps char? (2500-2700 on mox) any information/help is much appreciated... p.s. wis/accuracy/power/crit correct?

[mmerry]

Yes.

 

Refer to screenshot and look at titles and difficulty level.

 

http://republicgentlemen.guildportal.com/GuildFiles/443431/Raid%20Kills/TFB%20NM%20TITLE%20RUN.jpg

[Caravas]

gratz on TFB NM clear and sorry but can't tell what char is shadow (top dps?) or ? ty for reply anyone have rotation gear tips for 2.2?

[Gnimish]

Yes.

 

Refer to screenshot and look at titles and difficulty level.

 

http://republicgentlemen.guildportal.com/GuildFiles/443431/Raid%20Kills/TFB%20NM%20TITLE%20RUN.jpg

 

Wild berry was your shadow? And did 3% of your damage?

[mmerry]

Wild berry was your shadow? And did 3% of your damage?

 

Torparse only counted the first tentacle since you know stealth and stuff... Obviously if I had done 3% of the damage which is less than the healers did we wouldnt have killed the boss.

[Gnimish]

Torparse only counted the first tentacle since you know stealth and stuff... Obviously if I had done 3% of the damage which is less than the healers did we wouldnt have killed the boss.

 

Was just curious. Didn't mean to insult. Congrats btw

[Jimvinny]

As wildberry has demonstrated, an exceptional player can make shadow dps viable. However, would that same exceptional player do even better with an equally geared gunslinger or sentinel? The answer is unequivocally Yes.

[thejollygreenone]

As wildberry has demonstrated, an exceptional player can make shadow dps viable. However, would that same exceptional player do even better with an equally geared gunslinger or sentinel? The answer is unequivocally Yes.

 

this. but we must stress it seems to really take an exceptional player to get passable numbers.

[Allronix]

I'm a Shadow Tank, but my only issue with finding an ops party is that I'm on from 2-5am most nights.

 

A lot of this is just making the most of your abilities and gear, beefing up your Willpower stats, and testing your abilities. A combat logger might help in your situation; solo some dailies with the logger running and test out different abilities to see what combinations give you the most bang for the buck.

[Songwhistle]

all classes are viable. - not all players are viable. to mitigate this roll sentinels and gunslingers. but yes decent players will be able to make high numbers still. nomatter how broken people seem to think the shadow is.

 

many guilds will argue that finding a shadow that has a clue is harder to find than a needle in a haystack and even if that player plays at the top of his game he would easily be able to do equal numbers or better on a sentinel which in turn brings inspiration and healing to the raid.

 

to me the answer is simple. if it is enjoyable and you can push your dps higher than the groups sentinels then most groups will ignore inspiration and heals. So if you really want to play a shadow - DO IT WELL. dont half-*** it.

[Arijharn]

to me the answer is simple. if it is enjoyable and you can push your dps higher than the groups sentinels then most groups will ignore inspiration and heals. So if you really want to play a shadow - DO IT WELL. dont half-*** it.

 

lol. Seriously.

 

For simplicity, If your dps is at 3000, and the other 3 are at 3000, but your position can be taken by someone who can also do 3000 but on top of that can boost their (and 3 others) DPS and/or heals by 15%, who are you going to bring? Can you do math? Because the answer should be obvious.

[THoK-Zeus]

lol. Seriously.

 

For simplicity, If your dps is at 3000, and the other 3 are at 3000, but your position can be taken by someone who can also do 3000 but on top of that can boost their (and 3 others) DPS and/or heals by 15%, who are you going to bring? Can you do math? Because the answer should be obvious.

 

Yes, let's do the math: 3000*4*0,15=1800 then let's count in the uptime:

1800*(15/300)=90

Yes!! 90 more dps for the whole raid, this is soo important. Each dps gets 22,5 additional dps, woaaaah i don't wanna take stealth rez or off-taunts anymore this is so op and unbelievable strong (may include sarcasm).

[leijae]

Yes, let's do the math: 3000*4*0,15=1800 then let's count in the uptime:

1800*(15/300)=90

Yes!! 90 more dps for the whole raid, this is soo important. Each dps gets 22,5 additional dps, woaaaah i don't wanna take stealth rez or off-taunts anymore this is so op and unbelievable strong (may include sarcasm).

 

You're right about one thing. If a group is taking lets say 2 ranged, a sent, and then trying to decide between another sent or a shadow......

 

Consider this:

 

Your math indicates that with a single sentinel, each dps gets +22.5 dps. Not a whole lot of difference there.... but here is where it gets tricky

 

Let's say they bring 2 combat sents, well according to your math (which I don't disagree with) that would be a total of about +50 dps per person, right? That comes out to be about +50,000 damage over a 4.5 min boss fight. What's 50k health? How many times have you been only 4 or 5% from downing a boss? Whats the difference between 2.25k dps and 2.3k dps per person? Downing a NiM boss.

 

How many guilds have the top 20 shadow DPS at their disposal? Wild-berry's guild has 3 of the top 5 shadows in the world (according to parses). There are bazillian sents that can do 2.5k on any given sunday, but to find a shadow that can do it is SUPER RARE.

 

So, back to my original point... you're right about one thing: math.

Edited September 4, 2013 by leijae

[THoK-Zeus]

You're right about one thing. If a group is taking lets say 2 ranged, a sent, and then trying to decide between another sent or a shadow......

 

Consider this:

 

Your math indicates that with a single sentinel, each dps gets +22.5 dps. Not a whole lot of difference there.... but here is where it gets tricky

 

Let's say they bring 2 combat sents, well according to your math (which I don't disagree with) that would be a total of about +50 dps per person, right? That comes out to be about +50,000 damage over a 4.5 min boss fight. What's 50k health? How many times have you been only 4 or 5% from downing a boss? Whats the difference between 2.25k dps and 2.3k dps per person? Downing a NiM boss.

 

How many guilds have the top 20 shadow DPS at their disposal? Wild-berry's guild has 3 of the top 5 shadows in the world (according to parses). There are bazillian sents that can do 2.5k on any given sunday, but to find a shadow that can do it is SUPER RARE.

 

So, back to my original point... you're right about one thing: math.

 

A 2,5 k parse from a shadow would be about 2,8.-2,9k damage on a boss (execute and armor debuff). Already did post this math on the forum (and so did kbn).

As you find 22,5 additional dps to be a deciding factor in killing a nim boss (yeah stealth rez someone is completely unimportant), you probably should consider to take a shadow tank. They will do atleast 100 dps more then a guardian tank on a boss. That is the difference between killing or not killing a nim boss (may include more sarcasm).

Edited September 4, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[KeyboardNinja]

Also remember that Inspiration/Bloodthirst is nearly a wash for most sentinel specs due to centering/fury suppression and Zen/Berserk uptime reduction. If you bring two sentinels, you get twice as much Inspiration/Bloodthirst uptime, but you reduce the value derived from *either* buff by a very significant amount. I did the math on this in another thread, but basically once you start bringing two sentinels, the benefit from Inspiration as a whole begins to wash out. The only objective advantage to two Inspiration/Bloodthirst activations is a damage buff window which is 30 seconds in duration (basically, just the Conjured Dragon).

[kwestone]

The way I am getting responses from the forums here is: If you cant, you suck.

 

Not because of the way the A.C. was BUTCHERED. No, it is because you suck. Everyone should be able to bring assassins or shadows as a DPS!!!!

 

IRL, they don't, and wont, but that is because YOU and I just suck!

[KeyboardNinja]

The way I am getting responses from the forums here is: If you cant, you suck.

 

Not because of the way the A.C. was BUTCHERED. No, it is because you suck. Everyone should be able to bring assassins or shadows as a DPS!!!!

 

IRL, they don't, and wont, but that is because YOU and I just suck!

 

I'm not saying any of that. I'm trying to figure out why it is exactly that assassin DPS falls behind in the hands of most people. It's not exactly a hard spec to play (madness, anyway), but we can see how it's clearly viable in top-tier content, at least in terms of its top-end potential. Everyone vaguely talks about "maximal precision required", but no one seems to be able to clarify exactly what needs to be so precise. Don't clip your dots? Ok, done. And…?

 

There *is* a severe and largely undeserved bias against assassin DPS because of the low dummy parses. When dummy parses are adjusted for raid buffs and executes though, we generally see numbers right about in line with what I would expect from a marauder in similar gear. So…assassins are fine then? It's really hard to say.

 

Right now, all I know for sure is that a) madness is insanely boring to play, b) deception is extremely unreliable and buggy, and c) the entire game has a seething hatred for both specs. These are facts. If I can add more facts to my collection, I really would love to, but right now I'm at a bit of a loss.

[leijae]

A 2,5 k parse from a shadow would be about 2,8.-2,9k damage on a boss (execute and armor debuff). Already did post this math on the forum (and so did kbn).

As you find 22,5 additional dps to be a deciding factor in killing a nim boss (yeah stealth rez someone is completely unimportant), you probably should consider to take a shadow tank. They will do atleast 100 dps more then a guardian tank on a boss. That is the difference between killing or not killing a nim boss (may include more sarcasm).

 

Me thinks you missed the point, young grasshopper.

[Sarenne]

.... Right now, all I know for sure is that a) madness is insanely boring to play, b) deception is extremely unreliable and buggy, and c) the entire game has a seething hatred for both specs. These are facts. If I can add more facts to my collection, I really would love to, but right now I'm at a bit of a loss.

 

Read this about 5 minutes ago and I'm still laughing at c) .. it's true and I really don't know what else to do...

[Sarenne]

I suppose I should add that as Infiltration/Deception (which is the only spec I play) I think we are reliant on chance rather than skill far too often; it's out of our hands. The priority system isn't hard to learn but when it comes down to the nitty gritty it's a crap shoot and odds are that's exactly what you're going to get.

[leto_cleon]

woaaaah i don't wanna take stealth rez or off-taunts anymore this is so op and unbelievable strong (may include sarcasm).

In terms of stealth rez, with all the AOE and random single targe damage in the current content, sometimes finding the right 6s window to do so is just too much of a DPS loss. When a Balance Shadow specs into Shadow's Respite and uses Force Cloak in his normal rotation (mmerry specs into it), a stealth rez is also pretty much not an option.

 

Off-taunts... think of sage without bubble and no heal to full. Its bad

 

The way I am getting responses from the forums here is: If you cant, you suck.

 

Not because of the way the A.C. was BUTCHERED. No, it is because you suck. Everyone should be able to bring assassins or shadows as a DPS!!!!

 

IRL, they don't, and wont, but that is because YOU and I just suck!

Hey you may want to check what I posted here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6725860&postcount=84;) Don't despair really. [Edit: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6726641&postcount=93 has a further comparison breakdown] Edited September 6, 2013 by leto_cleon

[Sarenne]

 

... Off-taunts... think of sage without bubble and no heal to full. Its bad ...

 

 

forum is fun tonight, lmao at this one.. yep, if all else fails AOE taunt on the way to wipesville - at least you're having fun

[THoK-Zeus]

 

Off-taunts... think of sage without bubble and no heal to full. Its bad

 

I will tell my raid team not to use off taunt anymore when kel'sara is casting force leech on me and the other tank is death thanks for the tip.

Also, you're absolutley right that dps shadows/assassins don't have any possibilitys to survive the attacks from a boss.

Deflection (50% m/r defenses for 12 seconds) and Force Shroud (3 sec 100% f/t defenses) are nonexistant and if they would exist they wouldn't help anything, thanks for the tip (may include sarcasm).

 

Also that you have the courage to even link your nonhelpful post with a lot of wrong Information included

[fire-breath]

I'm just getting my shadow into 50's and looking to gear up for ops but am getting a negative reaction from guild on using a shadow for a dps slot in raid. Can we not generate the dps required like the regular dps char? (2500-2700 on mox) any information/help is much appreciated... p.s. wis/accuracy/power/crit correct?

 

I guess the answer can be summed up by:

Yes, shadows are viable for opses in any content. They shouldnt be to negative. Only for NiM you would need to be a very skilled player. If you invest the time in it you can become one.

 

sidenote:

I always like to play specs which seems to be suboptimal. Just to show other people that every spec is viable. My slinger is saboteur since day 1 (around the time of patch 1.xx-ish). My sentinel is focus sinse early acces. It tends to shut up people quiet fast if they see the dps-output.

I guess the same will count for you in your guild. Just show them shadows can do it, invest time in it to learn your rotation and show them

[Leafy_Bug]

As long as you play what you like and enjoy the run being a shadow damage dealer should not be a problem. If you laugh at wipes and giggle like silly girls,we do this at the moment at the Dreadguards in NiM, take 4 shadow damage dealers even. We just started NiM progression, we lost half our raid team during the summer and our composition, 1 guardian, 1 vang, 2 sentinels, 1 slinger, 1 commando allowed us to take Kelsara to 30% in our second night of trying. We would not have done this with 1 shadow dps or 2 shadow dps that is for sure.

 

 

Now the OP has asked if a shadow is viable as a damage dealer. The answer is yes and we should stop at that. If we take things to the next level and look at class balance then we find something else. Guilds have shifted from fun to being number one across the server. To do this they will take the best composition always and at the moment the shadow is not among them. Like it or not this is the truth and just because 4 people can parse on the dummy 2.8k with a shadow it should make you think how high they can parse with other classes.

 

 

Someone here said that a shadow doing 2500 on the dummy actually does 2900 on a boss due to spinning strike and corresponding armour debuffs. We are gearing up a shadow for nightmare because he loves the class so much and we won't tell him to reroll. We got to the cartel warlords fight and the DPS on Horic was the following.

 

 

1. Allegra Sentinel Watchman : 3125

2. Pointlaugh Sentinel Watchman : 3200 DPS

3. Grexx Commando : 2850 dps

4. Siderial Shadow Infiltration : 2550

 

 

These are the final numbers when my sentinel got into dispatch range. So when people argue that shadow starts to shine under 30 % they tend to forget that other classes have an execute ability. Spinning strike is probably the strongest execute in the game, falling behind a focus spec dispatch, but the overall class design and rng in infiltration (spinning strike hits the most here due to talent), should not be ignored.

 

 

 

So bottom line :

 

 

Shadows are viable but not more than one as a damage dealer, they are fun to play, but the days where it brought utility and had a mandatory spot in OPS are gone. If you do not have perfect gameplay, awesome latency, you will parse lower than a mediocre, sentinel, gunslinger and commando. Bosses with tight enrage timers require perfect execution and at this point in time nobody has cleared Dreadguards NiM with two shadows. Lots of stealth res in there little pew pew.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Leafy_Bug