2.4 Changes to class are posted in the PTS forum

[Gullesvupper]

Yeah, this is the only change that even without going into the game, I can agree makes no sense... at all... I REALLY hope this is a typo or something... cause... wow... makes NO sense...

 

Also, take it one farther from an RP standpoint (no I don't RP, I just like things to REMOTELY MAKE SENSE) how does hitting someone with the butt of a rifle or giving them an uppercut put a "DoT" on them... like... you aren't even shooting your weapon... Flame burst / Ion pulse it makes sense... you are at least hitting them something that could reasonably "combust" and set them on fire or whatever it is that is happening on the vanguard side... Just doesn't make sense... at all...

 

I'm on the PTS, it's no typo. This is how it works now.

[Mikroswitch]

Nowt for us tanks again..............

 

 

/goestotankhismisses

[Chickensevil]

I'm on the PTS, it's no typo. This is how it works now.

 

well.... ****...

 

 

On another note: We should likely move the immediate class balance changes over to the PTS forums since they are open now and will likely garner some more attention. For once, we can post about our pitiful class balance on the PTS forums! YAY!

[Gullesvupper]

well.... ****...

 

 

On another note: We should likely move the immediate class balance changes over to the PTS forums since they are open now and will likely garner some more attention. For once, we can post about our pitiful class balance on the PTS forums! YAY!

 

Remember what happend at 2.0? It just got longer and longer and then they closed the forums

 

But yes, it's a good idea. Anything to get our issues some attention!

[KamikazeKommando]

Also, take it one farther from an RP standpoint (no I don't RP, I just like things to REMOTELY MAKE SENSE) how does hitting someone with the butt of a rifle or giving them an uppercut put a "DoT" on them... like... you aren't even shooting your weapon... Flame burst / Ion pulse it makes sense... you are at least hitting them something that could reasonably "combust" and set them on fire or whatever it is that is happening on the vanguard side... Just doesn't make sense... at all...

 

You have got to be either reading my mind or we're on the exact same wavelength. After walking the dog was going to come back with this very thought too. How in the world would hitting something with the butt of my rifle cause them to burst in flames 100% of the time, when shooting them with an ionic blast from my plasma charged rifle only does this 45%? I'm no RPer, but found that quite silly.

[KamikazeKommando]

Is that just counting full tree specs, or did you look at hybrid as well?

 

My metrics are derived first from the official PVE DPS competitions on our server, where classes must follow some strict guidelines to parse DPS on the training dummy. I also look at torparse to compare the averages of the various ACs for fights. Obviously some fights have elements that favor a particular class more than others and this favoring differs from fight to fight, but nonetheless it is another good benchmark. It's certainly not a science though, and I compiled the list with Shadows at #7 and Vanguards at #8. Keep in mind that's for PVE, for PVP you need more conisiderations outside of maximum DPS potential, which we get short strawed even more, which is why I thought they'd really rebalance the class.

 

As far as hybrids, anything goes for these metrics I looked at. As a matter of fact, when I DPS I often run an uncommon hybrid (read: a variation of the parakeet) and do *extremely* well with it, so to each their own (I find it the most fun to play with high QoL and insane PVP potential). I'm only now starting to submit my PVE parses, but when I just compare my figures I generally am always within the top 20, if not top 10 or top 5 for torparse on PVE raid bosses (HM/NiM of course). Saying hybrids don't count is strange, especially when they can hold their own for the top spots in both PVE and PVP when done right.

Edited August 16, 2013 by KamikazeKommando

[Chickensevil]

You have got to be either reading my mind or we're on the exact same wavelength. After walking the dog was going to come back with this very thought too. How in the world would hitting something with the butt of my rifle cause them to burst in flames 100% of the time, when shooting them with an ionic blast from my plasma charged rifle only does this 45%? I'm no RPer, but found that quite silly.

 

I LOL'd was quite funny. Glad someone else noticed

 

Saying hybrids don't count is strange, especially when they can hold their own for the top spots in both PVE and PVP when done right.

 

I only state that they shouldn't count because they are an anomaly. An unintended consequence of their attempts at game balance. They are expecting people to stick at LEAST 36 points into a tree as such if you want to go based on THEIR perspective of game balance, it is not fair to include hybrids in the discussion at all. The other reason is of course that they generally go out of their way to nerf hybrids to the point where they are broken. If they "liked" or "planned" for hybrids they wouldn't break them, they would just tone down the damage.

 

While they have never come out and said "hybrids are bad". Their actions in the past have shown their extreme displeasure toward them. Therefore any serious discussion about the balance of the game should come from the stance that EVERYONE is sticking at LEAST 36 points into a given tree.

[Kitru]

While they have never come out and said "hybrids are bad".

 

I'm actually pretty sure they have. I distinctly recall one of the devs (I believe it was Peckenpaugh), when discussing hybrid specs, said that they didn't want them in game and were specifically making design decisions to prevent people from using hybrid specs (at least hybrid specs that perform close to equal to or better than a full spec). It was in reference to Shadows in PvP way back when, when there were a whole *slew* of hybrid specs going around and the devs up and nerfed most of 'em before telling all of the complaining players "hybrids are bad".

[Dordrac]

This is a direct comparison of the damage values between live and PTS using the same gear and my stats below:

 

3188 aim (no sage buff at the time)

Bonus Damage MH: 986.4 Tech: 1503.4

1312 power

104 crit (Ranged Crit: 21.41%, Tech Crit: 24.91% )

474 accuracy (100.48% Ranged / 110.48% Tech )

316 surge ( 68.62% )

0 alacrity

 

Gut's damage for me got reduced from roughly 1821-1935 + 3921 to around 1690-1804 + 3216 so around an 18% reduction. This is NOT a slight reduction!

 

Incendiary Round: 921 - 1028 + 3302 on live vs. 939 - 1052 + 3155 (slight reduction)

Pulse Cannon ( with 0 stacks) 5409 on live vs. 5318 on PTS ( slight reduction)

 

Anyway, I was using a 8/22/16 spec, and was able to keep both IR and Gut on the target at the same time constantly fairly easily, so my parses at least stayed around the same as they were on live. Keep in mind I also did not have the sage 5% main stat buff. (Around 2750-2800 with full 72 BiS)

 

I also checked the damage of Assault Plastique: 2892 - 3006 + 2500 on live vs. 3691 - 3805 + 2183 dot on the PTS if you use a 36 point Assault Spec.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Dordrac

[Winguardian]

Dordrac, you're not keeping in mind the surge of pulse cannon got buffed by 30% and pulse cannon has a reduced cost now + a 90% slow with 3 stacks. Also stockstrike has 6% inc crit.

 

Also, didn't they increase fire pulses' damage aswell?

Edited August 16, 2013 by Winguardian

[Dordrac]

Dordrac, you're not keeping in mind the surge of pulse cannon got buffed by 30% and pulse cannon has a reduced cost now + a 90% slow with 3 stacks. Also stockstrike has 6% inc crit.

 

Also, didn't they increase fire pulses' damage aswell?

 

They did, but I wasn't actually using full Tactics there. I was using the hybrid 8/22/16 build. Anyway, I just feel like the Gut damage reduction just didn't match up well at all compared to the other "slight reductions" of 2-5%. Gut's damage got reduced by around 18%, which is not a slight reduction. But yes, Tactics is in a better place now, and the hybrid specs still looked to be viable.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Dordrac

[ZeroPlus]

So...

 

Assault Specialist

•Increased Assault Plastique explosion damage, but reduced the damage it deals over time.

Nice! They increased the explosion damage. Wait! What? They reduced the damage over time component? Why? We are hurting for damage. We are not in a position where adding damage in one place means removing it from somewhere else.

 

•Reduced the cost of Incendiary Round to 16 energy cells (down from 22) and slightly reduced the damage it deals.

Yay! Finally! Incendiary Round now only costs 16 energy cells. Wait! What? They reduced the damage over time component??? Why??? I'll say it again: we are huring for damage. Incendiary Round having its cost reduced is nice but it did not need a change to its damage.

 

•Ionized Ignition has been redesigned: Stockstrike has a 33/66/100% chance and if Plasma Cell is active, Ion Pulse has a 15/30/45% chance to trigger it.

Ummm... what now? Why was this change made? So we are going from being able to trigger Plasma Cell 100% of the time every 1.5 seconds (or whenever we wanted to) to being able to trigger it 100% of the time every 9 seconds and having a 45% chance to trigger it the rest of the time... Why was this change made again?

 

So... I'm confused and perplexed by these changes. Nothing was done to Assault's survivability (no DoT-based self-healing added to Adrenaline Fueled (I mean, come on, even Gunslingers get to generate health while in cover now), no redesign of Adrenaline Rush, nothing...). The changes that could have aided our damage (the increased explosion damage on AP and the reduced cost of IR) where nullified by the damage reduction applied to the DoT component of those abilities. AND we got a change that makes no sense at all...

 

Confused and perplexed...

[MGNMTTRN]

This is a direct comparison of the damage values between live and PTS using the same gear and my stats below:

 

3188 aim (no sage buff at the time)

Bonus Damage MH: 986.4 Tech: 1503.4

1312 power

104 crit (Ranged Crit: 21.41%, Tech Crit: 24.91% )

474 accuracy (100.48% Ranged / 110.48% Tech )

316 surge ( 68.62% )

0 alacrity

 

Gut's damage for me got reduced from roughly 1821-1935 + 3921 to around 1690-1804 + 3216 so around 20% reduction. This is NOT a slight reduction!

 

Incendiary Round: 921 - 1028 + 3302 on live vs. 939 - 1052 + 3155 (slight reduction)

Pulse Cannon ( with 0 stacks) 5409 on live vs. 5318 on PTS ( slight reduction)

 

Anyway, I was using a 8/22/16 spec, and was able to keep both IR and Gut on the target at the same time constantly fairly easily, so my parses at least stayed around the same as they were on live. Keep in mind I also did not have the sage 5% main stat buff. (Around 2750-2800 with full 72 BiS)

 

I also checked the damage of Assault Plastique: 2892 - 3006 + 2500 on live vs. 3691 - 3805 + 2183 dot on the PTS if you use a 36 point Assault Spec.

Thanks for giving us a peek. Overall I suspect full Tactics will gain more damage than it loses thanks to the Pulse Cannon surge buff.

 

As for Assault...

(Values reported are for 30% kinetic damage reduction, 0% tech resist, pre-crit, and without skill bonuses to burning target damage or to AP damage)

With those values, the old Assault Plastique damage would be (2892 + 3006)*0.7/2 + 2500 = 4564 pre-crit damage, with 2064 being up front.

New assault plastique would be (3691 +3805)*0.7/2 + 2183 = 4806 with 2623 damage being up front. In PVP your up-front damage will vary a lot due to the different armor ratings of enemies and the burning buffs you get in the assault tree. In PVE I foresee serious issues with Plasma Cell.

 

Before 2.0 the timing of Plasma Cell was actually important; if you renewed your Plasma Cell DOT once every 2 GCDs you could effectively get 4 ticks over 6 seconds, whereas the DOT was only supposed to tick 3 times over 6 seconds minimum. But with 2.0 came the enormous nerf to Plasma Cell, and after 2.4 we won't even be able to proc it reliably, which means it'll be much harder to maximize output from those DOT ticks. Additionally, Stockstrike is now bundled with both a HIB cooldown reset chance and a 100% chance to proc the DOT, which means that sometimes you'll clip Plasma Cell DOT damage because you need to try to proc HIB resets with Stockstrike. The Incendiary Round buff will allow for a savings of 16 ammo over 36 seconds, so you'll be getting an extra 1 Ion Pulse in 36 seconds. It's almost impossible that these extra Ion Pulses could make up for the loss of Plasma Cell DOT damage.

 

Too bad I geared my Assault Vanguard as a tank, because now I don't have a decently geared toon to check these numbers for myself. Hopefully someone with a geared Assault Vanguard can show me why this isn't a nerf.

Edited August 17, 2013 by MGNMTTRN

[Winguardian]

Comparison of old tactics to new tactics on PTS (full tactics 8/36/2):

 

Fire Pulse:

old: 2554-2734

new: 3017-3137

 

Pulse cannon:

old: 4790 - 7355 (high end value is with 3 stacks)

new: 4709 -7232 (high end value is with 3 stacks)

 

Gutt:

old: 1517-1631 + 3451

new: 1407-1521 + 2829

 

AP (without having specced into assault tech tree):

old: 2278-2385 + 2095

new: 3005-3113 + 1996

 

So they didn't nerf the dot that hard for AP, but increased the burst SIGNIFICANTLY.

 

Gutt was indeed nerfed alot in dps, both the dot and upfront damage.

 

Pulse cannon overall got a buff, since it got 30% increased surge, and the nerf to the base damage is negligible. On top of this, at 3 stacks, Pulse Cannon is 6 (7 if you include the base nerf) ammo cells cheaper than live, and it gives a 90% slow.

 

The burst of Fire Pulse got increased significantly.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Winguardian

[Chickensevil]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6667670

I posted some comparisons on the PTS forums to see roughly where each spec stands. I would have added to other threads, but there were no decent ones on the front page at the time, but I feel like it made more sense to do a comparison in its own location.

[Chickensevil]

I'm actually pretty sure they have. I distinctly recall one of the devs (I believe it was Peckenpaugh), when discussing hybrid specs, said that they didn't want them in game and were specifically making design decisions to prevent people from using hybrid specs (at least hybrid specs that perform close to equal to or better than a full spec). It was in reference to Shadows in PvP way back when, when there were a whole *slew* of hybrid specs going around and the devs up and nerfed most of 'em before telling all of the complaining players "hybrids are bad".

 

I couldn't remember them outright SAYING "hybrids are bad", so I was just going with what I said. If they did outright say it then all the better to my argument

 

Thanks though, it has been so long, and way too many yellow posts to fish through to hope to find that one obscure comment haha.

[AMightyKnight]

Kitru is quite right, they said during the 2.0 testing that usable hybrid specs were not intended. And it was Peckenpaugh since according to him he is pretty much the only one who still works at class balance.

[Luckyluzi]

with the new gear(pvp) firepulse crits up to 7,4k and pulse canon ticks for 4,2k critical on my ship pvp dummy

[WAJWOZ]

I play 2/22/22 hybrid on my vg and I would disagree vg dps is low getting about 2.9k dps on boss fights even when I have t run around and sometimes not do damage. So looking at my combat logs on tor parser I don't think if you play a hybrid you will be speccing into havoc training for the 30% crit boost to pulse cannon. Speccing into havoc training sacrifices assault trooper in the assault specialist tree which will decrease the dmg of your high impact bolt, ion pulse, mainly and IR and Plasma cell. Which when looking at my logs means losing more dmg from those skill for less of a gain on pulse cannon. However for a fight that may have a lot of aoe it could be viable going 2/28/16 as I believe vg has the best aoe in the game and with points in havoc retraining this can only get better.

[KamikazeKommando]

I play 2/22/22 hybrid on my vg and I would disagree vg dps is low getting about 2.9k dps on boss fights even when I have t run around and sometimes not do damage.

 

Sorry, but from the big picture our AC is at the back of the pack. Sure, we can do 2.9k or more on a boss fight, but compare that to what the top players of the other ACs are doing for the same fight and that number usually isn't very impressive or competitive. With that said, there's the issue where we're especially screwed in PVP. Yes, you can find Vanguards doing really good, but when you compare the best skill and gear in ranked competitive scenarios, we're typically the laughing stock. None of this phases me or will get me to shelve my Vanguard, I'll strive to do the best I can possibly do with the cards as they are delt, but it's a tad irritating to see them fumble the ball here, especially with assault.

Edited August 17, 2013 by KamikazeKommando

[WAJWOZ]

Sorry, but from the big picture our AC is at the back of the pack. Sure, we can do 2.9k or more on a boss fight, but compare that to what the top players of the other ACs are doing for the same fight and that number usually isn't very impressive or competitive. With that said, there's the issue where we're especially screwed in PVP. Yes, you can find Vanguards doing really good, but when you compare the best skill and gear in ranked competitive scenarios, we're typically the laughing stock. None of this phases me or will get me to shelve my Vanguard, I'll strive to do the best I can possibly do with the cards as they are delt, but it's a tad irritating to see them fumble the ball here, especially with assault.

 

I agree we should be more viable as a dps I play mainly pve but defiantly in pvp.

However that said no one can dispute that our AC lacks in aoe damage. Now that is a lot of fun

[OlosBC]

I play 2/22/22 hybrid on my vg and I would disagree vg dps is low getting about 2.9k dps on boss fights even when I have t run around and sometimes not do damage. So looking at my combat logs on tor parser I don't think if you play a hybrid you will be speccing into havoc training for the 30% crit boost to pulse cannon. Speccing into havoc training sacrifices assault trooper in the assault specialist tree which will decrease the dmg of your high impact bolt, ion pulse, mainly and IR and Plasma cell. Which when looking at my logs means losing more dmg from those skill for less of a gain on pulse cannon. However for a fight that may have a lot of aoe it could be viable going 2/28/16 as I believe vg has the best aoe in the game and with points in havoc retraining this can only get better.

 

Yeah you're probably right. Looked at it again, and looked at one of my recent parses. The skills affected by Havoc Training/Firebug make up like 50-55% of our dps.

[Rahizm]

I'm wondering why these changes will be added. Hybrid VGs, like myself, are getting nerfed. And I don't think we're at the back of the pack (not Hybrids, but Assault Troopers, sure) The highest parsing Hybrid VG is getting near 3200 on the dummy. This is almost as high as the SS/MM Slinger/Sniper.

 

These changes affect all current VG DPS and it will make them less viable in 8-man NIM ops. The only thing we needed was an IR reduced cost, not a nerf to all the important abilities.

 

Note I'm just speaking from the Hybrid perspective. I left my Assault days behind since 2.0 came out and went Hybrid because I can put out good DPS with it. Assault still doesn't get improvement and now they are nerfing Hybrid as well.

[CrazyOldMystic]

I think we are getting the short end of the stick, just like the bounty hunters. Look at the patch notes. No nerfs for agents or smugglers. Yet they nerf things like gut? A ability that was already lacking in damage, and unlike a agent does not even stun the target are you kidding me. Its no secret that people like to pvp now on there agents and smugglers more then other classes. Reducing the ammo cost but then reducing the damage "slightly" Sounds like code for allot to me, and they will never make it easy for us to figure out by how much. I am not really complaining here but just saying. Its a little odd that troopers and bounty hunters are the ones getting hit with the nerf bat, yet there is not even a patch not about agent or smuggler nerfs.

 

Just the thoughts of a Commando/Vanguard.

[Chickensevil]

I'm wondering why these changes will be added. Hybrid VGs, like myself, are getting nerfed. And I don't think we're at the back of the pack (not Hybrids, but Assault Troopers, sure) The highest parsing Hybrid VG is getting near 3200 on the dummy. This is almost as high as the SS/MM Slinger/Sniper.

 

These changes affect all current VG DPS and it will make them less viable in 8-man NIM ops. The only thing we needed was an IR reduced cost, not a nerf to all the important abilities.

 

Note I'm just speaking from the Hybrid perspective. I left my Assault days behind since 2.0 came out and went Hybrid because I can put out good DPS with it. Assault still doesn't get improvement and now they are nerfing Hybrid as well.

 

They are not really nerfing Hybrid, if you take a look at the numbers I ran I am getting around the same DPS in hybrid I got before. They BUFFED AP/tactics, and that is primarily what you are seeing in there. Which is good, and what was needed. Nerfing/breaking hybrid would just further gimp the class and I think that is why they didn't do anything to really affect that. (yes they lowered the damage on gut... so I guess that is a minor nerf, but with the boost to other things, it was definitely a buff overall.)

 

All the nerfs you are seeing is primarily hitting assault/pyro. Why they are killing assault/pyro further is beyond me... it's basically kicking the spec in the balls even though its legs got cut off at the knees in 2.0.

 

I think we are getting the short end of the stick, just like the bounty hunters. Look at the patch notes. No nerfs for agents or smugglers. Yet they nerf things like gut? A ability that was already lacking in damage, and unlike a agent does not even stun the target are you kidding me. Its no secret that people like to pvp now on there agents and smugglers more then other classes. Reducing the ammo cost but then reducing the damage "slightly" Sounds like code for allot to me, and they will never make it easy for us to figure out by how much. I am not really complaining here but just saying. Its a little odd that troopers and bounty hunters are the ones getting hit with the nerf bat, yet there is not even a patch not about agent or smuggler nerfs.

 

Just the thoughts of a Commando/Vanguard.

 

I would hold off judgement on the other class balance. I highly expect them to release other changes, 2.4 isn't for a while, and what I am hoping they realize our class needs some of the most work so they are giving us a head start on it. Given that they have specifically mentioned the problems with assassins/shadows but we saw no changes to helping out their "squishiness" I expect we will see more changes in the next build they push to the PTS.