Watchman Relics in 2.3

[Elizar_Naki]

So I've asked this question a few times in other relic threads and gotten no response. I'm currently hoping that asking it in my own thread will get more of an answer.

 

Anyway, I'm currently running a Watchman sent with a UW SA relic (power proc) and a lv.50 matrix cube. I know the latter is considered a bad choice overall (not sure why, but I'm not a theorycrafter, so I'll take everyone's word on that one), but at present I don't know whether going with a damage proc relic (Elemental Transcendence, for example) or a power click relic (Boundless Ages) would be the better choice. I generally don't like clicky relics since I tend to forget about them (and had some user-error related issues trying to activate one from my quickbar a while back), but I'm considering using one for my second relic anyway if the results are wildly better. Problem is, I still like the idea of having two "set it and forget it" relics, and the elemental damage proc seems like a nice fit for a burn-based spec. In either case, I'd rather not get one and then find out later that the other would've been a better choice.

 

So, my question is this: for a Watchman sent, would using a damage proc relic as my second relic be more beneficial now that 2.3 has (supposedly) fixed the issue with having two proc relics, or should I just get a Boundless Ages relic like everyone else and hope I remember to use it enough to make it worthwhile?

[JakeTWC]

I usually play with UW SA and UW Dark Radiance since 2.3 if the boss doesn't have burnphases. When the has thesese burnphases were you must do a lot damage you better go with UW BA so get both of them

[Memo-]

If you opt for a damage proc relic, as a Watchman you should take Dark Radiance over Kinetic Tempest, as you have no innate armor reduction or penetration. Of all Sentinel specs only Focus would be better of with Kinetic Tempest. With Combat it's debatable: if the proc regularly happens to fit a PS-window, it's a great dmg boost, but if it misses them, then its value is greatly lessened.

 

For bosses with burn phases a clicky Boundless Ages is better though.

 

(Elemental Transcendence and Cerulean Nova Relics are for Tech users, be mindful of this and do not buy them for a Sentinel. )

Edited August 7, 2013 by Memo-

[Elizar_Naki]

If you opt for a damage proc relic, as a Watchman you should take Dark Radiance over Kinetic Tempest, as you have no innate armor reduction or penetration. Of all Sentinel specs only Focus would be better of with Kinetic Tempest. With Combat it's debatable: if the proc regularly happens to fit a PS-window, it's a great dmg boost, but if it misses them, then its value is greatly lessened.

 

For bosses with burn phases a clicky Boundless Ages is better though.

 

(Elemental Transcendence and Cerulean Nova Relics are for Tech users, be mindful of this and do not buy them for a Sentinel. )

Last I checked, the Elemental Transcendence relic's damage type depended on what tier you were looking at; the old DG version and the UW version were Force damage, while the Arkanian version was Tech. Maybe I misread that when I was looking at the vendors, but either way, that's why I mentioned that one specifically.

 

So overall, the message I'm getting here is that I need THREE relics, two of which need to be swapped around depending on the boss. Not a prospect I'm looking forward to, but whatever, I guess. Thanks for the input.

[Memo-]

Last I checked, the Elemental Transcendence relic's damage type depended on what tier you were looking at; the old DG version and the UW version were Force damage, while the Arkanian version was Tech. Maybe I misread that when I was looking at the vendors, but either way, that's why I mentioned that one specifically.

 

So overall, the message I'm getting here is that I need THREE relics, two of which need to be swapped around depending on the boss. Not a prospect I'm looking forward to, but whatever, I guess. Thanks for the input.

 

Hmm, interesting, I'll have to check that. You aren't required to have 3 relics though, 2 of your choice are fine. It's just a question of what's optimal. And not everything needs to be optimal. .P

[WhiteOsprey]

Yeah i had saved my 2nd UW relic token for 2.3 but now it looks like they've changed the Elemental Transcendence back to elemental force dmg. Not sure which relic between that and Dark Radiance to buy. I mainly play watchmen but switch to combat for a few fights.

[KarethRiker]

Pretty crazy that we don't have an answer to this yet. Should watchman get Elemental Trans or Dark Radiance? Has implications for other classes too since one of these must surely be for tech internal users

[Cerio]

Dark Radiance is tech damage. Elemental trans is force damage. As a sentinel avoid dark radiance like the plague and get a SA and Elem trans. http://dulfy.net/2013/02/21/swtor-arkanian-and-underworld-level-55-armor-statsinquisitorconsular/

[oofalong]

Dark Radiance is tech damage. Elemental trans is force damage. As a sentinel avoid dark radiance like the plague and get a SA and Elem trans. http://dulfy.net/2013/02/21/swtor-arkanian-and-underworld-level-55-armor-statsinquisitorconsular/

 

This may have been true at one point, and it was generally true prior to 2.0. However, there have been many changes, including undocumented ones, for the relic's tooltips. To my knowledge no one has tested exhaustively since 2.3 dropped.

[theITfactor]

I checked today and the tooltips are switched now.

 

Conqueror Relic of Elemental Transcendence lists the damage as "elemental tech damage" while Conqueror Relic of Dark Radiance lists the damage as "internal Force damage."

 

As a Watchman Sentinel, wouldn't I want elemental damage because Cauterize is listed as "elemental damage?" Or should I go with Dark Radiance because I don't want tech damage?

 

Very confusing.

[oofalong]

I checked today and the tooltips are switched now.

 

Conqueror Relic of Elemental Transcendence lists the damage as "elemental tech damage" while Conqueror Relic of Dark Radiance lists the damage as "internal Force damage."

 

The PvE ones used to be the opposite of this too

 

As a Watchman Sentinel, wouldn't I want elemental damage because Cauterize is listed as "elemental damage?" Or should I go with Dark Radiance because I don't want tech damage?

 

The damage types are Elemental and Internal, which are not mitgated by armor, or Kinetic and Energy, which are mitigated by armor. The attack types are Force and Tech.

 

Watchman wants an internal/elemental force relic based on your quotes it would be the Dark Radiance relic. Still, it is worth parsing to make sure the tooltips are accurate.

[KarethRiker]

Check the Underworld ET relic. I believe it is internal force also. The tooltips are messed to hell within a tier and between tiers.

 

Honestly not sure how they can fix it, but they really should.

[kennethdale]

Also of note is that as of when I was last online (it could have been ninja fixed tonight) Serendipitous Assault of different types WILL proc together. Will edit in a few minutes when I find it in one of my parses.

 

18:37:57.971 Kàryu gains Power Surge.

18:37:57.973 Kàryu gains 3 rage point.

18:37:58.461 Malfunctioning Controller's Combustion hits Kàryu for 3397 kinetic damage, causing 3397 threat.

18:37:58.892 Kàryu's Force Charge hits Malfunctioning Controller for 1146 energy damage, causing 1146 threat.

18:37:59.584 Kàryu activates Battering Assault.

18:37:59.584 Kàryu gains 6 rage point.

18:37:59.585 Kàryu activates Deadly Saber.

18:37:59.585 Kàryu spends 3 rage point.

18:37:59.585 Kàryu gains Deadly Saber.

18:38:00.196 Kàryu's Battering Assault hits Malfunctioning Controller for 587 energy damage, causing 587 threat.

18:38:00.305 Kàryu's Battering Assault misses Malfunctioning Controller, causing 1 threat.

18:38:00.389 Kàryu activates Saber Ward.

18:38:00.389 Kàryu gains Saber Ward.

18:38:00.543 Kàryu's Battering Assault critically hits Malfunctioning Controller for 986* energy damage, causing 986 threat!

18:38:00.573 Kàryu activates Force Camouflage.

18:38:00.574 Kàryu gains Force Camouflage.

18:38:00.574 Kàryu's Force Camouflage causes -68111 threat loss on Malfunctioning Controller.

18:38:00.574 Kàryu's Force Camouflage causes -75 threat loss on Haywire Droid.

18:38:00.574 Kàryu's Force Camouflage causes -75 threat loss on Haywire Droid.

18:38:00.574 Kàryu's Force Camouflage causes -75 threat loss on Haywire Droid.

18:38:00.979 Kàryu's Saber Ward heals Kàryu for 336, causing 168 threat.

18:38:00.980 Malfunctioning Controller's Combustion hits Kàryu for 1698 kinetic damage, causing 1698 threat. (424 absorbed)

18:38:01.511 Kàryu loses Force Camouflage.

18:38:01.512 Kàryu activates Annihilate.

18:38:01.512 Kàryu spends 5 rage point.

18:38:01.512 Kàryu gains 1 rage point.

18:38:01.512 Kàryu gains Power Surge.

 

Running Arkanian Serendipitous Assault/Conqueror Serendipitous Assault. Procced ~4 seconds apart which means the second proc was unaffected by the first ICD.

Edited August 13, 2013 by kennethdale

[oofalong]

Also of note is that as of when I was last online (it could have been ninja fixed tonight) Serendipitous Assault of different types WILL proc together. Will edit in a few minutes when I find it in one of my parses.

 

Running Arkanian Serendipitous Assault/Conqueror Serendipitous Assault. Procced ~4 seconds apart which means the second proc was unaffected by the first ICD.

 

Can you post a link to your entire parse?

 

I think there may be a couple of things going on. So far I have observed broken mechanics as a PvP and PvE SA seem to stack, which I do not believe is intended. Plus, the PvE buff can last more than 6s, which means a its internal proc CD does not distinguish between heal-triggered procs and damage-triggered procs.

[RikuvonDrake]

I checked today and the tooltips are switched now.

 

Conqueror Relic of Elemental Transcendence lists the damage as "elemental tech damage" while Conqueror Relic of Dark Radiance lists the damage as "internal Force damage."

 

As a Watchman Sentinel, wouldn't I want elemental damage because Cauterize is listed as "elemental damage?" Or should I go with Dark Radiance because I don't want tech damage?

 

Very confusing.

 

This has been the case since 2.0 was introduced, classic "tech" relics like Dark Radiance is now force and classic "force" relics such as elemental transcendence is now tech =)

[Lanja]

This confused the heck out of me as well. At the Dread Guard level my Watchman had Elemental Transcendence, which was Elemental Force Damage (i.e. force based, bypasses armor, matches nicely with Cauterize's elemental damage). At that time DG Dark Radiance was the mirror Marauder relic of choice (i.e. force based, bypasses armor, matched nicely with their internal bleed DoTs).

 

At Arkanian that got all switched up. AK Elemental Transcendence remained elemental damage, but switched to tech (making it useless to my Watchman). Dark Radiance became the alternative (albeit less elegant) option, as it was still force damage that bypassed armor. One of the other relics (the Energy Damage proc I think) also switched at from being Tech damage in its DG form to Force damage in its AK form. I don't think it actually mattered that you were doing some elemental damage and adding internal damage from the relic, but it was confusing and worried me at the time.

 

it looks like things switch back for the Underworld relics with Elemental Transcendence again dealing elemental force damage and UW Dark Radiance doing internal force damage. The only reasons I can see for the switch up at the Arkanian level are: either a) that Bioware simply made an error at the AK tier and corrected it for the UW tier or, b) that they did it intentionally so half of us would slip up and burn a bunch of commendations on the wrong relic.

[KarethRiker]

It's still confusing because theoretically Dark Radiance and Elemental Transendence at the UW level should perform exactly the same at least based on tooltips. They both do the same damage, bypass armor and are force based damage. It makes no sense to have two that do the exact same thing while an internal tech damage relic at the UW level does not exist.

 

I'm really surprised they haven't clarified it yet. But I'm thinking it's because if they came out and said something was wrong they'd have to figure out a way to refund the people who bought relics based on incorrect tooltips. I guess if both relics (UW DR and UW ET) are internal they could create a fifth relic for internal tech damage.

[kennethdale]

Can you post a link to your entire parse?

 

I think there may be a couple of things going on. So far I have observed broken mechanics as a PvP and PvE SA seem to stack, which I do not believe is intended. Plus, the PvE buff can last more than 6s, which means a its internal proc CD does not distinguish between heal-triggered procs and damage-triggered procs.

 

I will do so when I get back to a computer in a few minutes. Actually I have a dummy parse from earlier when I was messing around with gear and rotations that includes a carnage, a rage, and an annihilation that ill link instead. At the moment I only have one PvE but I know several people who have tested and can confirm that it works with Ark/UW as well. The only combinations I am unsure of are all of the same level (eg: ark/ark)

 

Log

 

I started in Carnage, then switched to Annihilation, then to Rage.

 

In looking through the log myself, I was trying to see if you assertion about it not respecting its own ICD in regards to damage/healing and I found this:

 

10:32:58.910 Kàryu's Rupture hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 173 energy damage, causing 173 threat.

10:32:59.292 Kàryu gains Power Surge.

...

10:33:10.041 Kàryu's Rupture adds effect Bleeding (Physical) to Operations Training Target MK-5.

10:33:10.041 Kàryu gains Power Surge.

...

10:33:22.752 Kàryu's Battering Assault hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 520 energy damage, causing 520 threat.

10:33:23.315 Kàryu gains Power Surge.

...

10:33:24.268 Kàryu's Hungering heals Kàryu for 330.

10:33:24.269 Kàryu gains Power Surge.

 

There is not way for that last proc to have occurred unless it was ignoring the previous proc based on damage.

 

I see the procs like this:

 

Relic 1

10:32:59.292

10:33:23.315

 

Relic 2

10:33:10.041

10:33:24.269

 

I found in total 4 instances of this happening in my parse. Interesting.

Edited August 15, 2013 by kennethdale

[KeyboardNinja]

I found in total 4 instances of this happening in my parse. Interesting.

 

Well, that's fantastic. :-( It basically means that the double-SA trick is once again BiS and as overpowered as ever, particularly for classes with a heal in rotation (gunslingers, some sages, some sentinels, some shadows).

[Maelael]

Well, that's fantastic. :-( It basically means that the double-SA trick is once again BiS and as overpowered as ever, particularly for classes with a heal in rotation (gunslingers, some sages, some sentinels, some shadows).

 

Damn it now I need to actually get a PvE Relic and spend more money on aug kits.

 

Has anyone else been able to find this in a parse out of curiosity?

[oofalong]

Yes, right now two SA relics will proc jointly; this seems to apply to PvE and PvP relics. Plus, either relic can proc independently off of a heal and damage. This manifests itself as Power Surge buffs that last longer than 6s and/or Power Surge buffs more frequently than every 20s.

 

I have heard rumors that people are also observing three or four simultaneous Power Surge buffs; I have not been able to recreate this as a Watchman Sent/Annihilation Mara. I trust the people claiming to have seen this or I would have dismissed it out of hand. Still, I am maintaining some healthy skepticism until proven otherwise.

[Sprgmr]

They fixed the PvP relics double proccing, I'd wager it's only a matter of time until they do the same here.

[kennethdale]

Yes, right now two SA relics will proc jointly; this seems to apply to PvE and PvP relics. Plus, either relic can proc independently off of a heal and damage. This manifests itself as Power Surge buffs that last longer than 6s and/or Power Surge buffs more frequently than every 20s.

 

I have heard rumors that people are also observing three or four simultaneous Power Surge buffs; I have not been able to recreate this as a Watchman Sent/Annihilation Mara. I trust the people claiming to have seen this or I would have dismissed it out of hand. Still, I am maintaining some healthy skepticism until proven otherwise.

 

Were you able to glean any other information from my parse?

[oofalong]

Were you able to glean any other information from my parse?

 

I did not learn anything new

 

I am looking for evidence of more than two simultaneous Power Surge buffs. I have heard it is possible, but I have never seen a parse with it. In your parse, you have Power Surges more frequent than 20s and that last longer than 6s. This means the relic(s) are proc'ing independently from heals and damage. These are both conditions I have seen before.

[Amantino]

Heres a parse for you: http://www.torparse.com/a/390862

 

UW + KD SA, 37 power procs in 5m25sec (325/37=8.78), and thats with lazy GCD usage.