Shadows, we aren't looking too hot...

[mmerry]

Shadows is a perfect class now for a casual players.

 

As a casual player you dont really have time to participate in Hard/NiM operations. And why would you even want them? It is timeconsuming and potentially exhausting experience that can bring frustration or irritation ( because of your faults or other ppl faults that cause wipes). So it is good that responsible group wont take you to neither Tank nor DPS the Hm/NiM ops.

 

PvP. It is not for you. Moreover - PvP is usually a very stressful. You want to lose faith in humanity? Solo join the WZ!

As a casual player you are coming home and turn on your computer to get some relaxation. PvP is definitely not the place to calm your nerves. You joined the WZ no matter what? You have stealth! stay at the distance in the stealth. Dont let anyone hurt you. And just watch how they kill each other.

 

So what is left?

To do Flashpoints! Shadows are fine for Flashpoints.

To do Dailies! Shadows are fine for Dailies.

To buy the stuff from Cartel Market! Shadows are excellent class for it!

To play with your appearance and excel your fashion designer skills! Shadows are perfect for it!

 

A lot of relaxing things to do for Casual players! Shadow is perfect relaxing class for a Casual Player!

 

Me and my raid group must be bat **** crazy to bring me along and clear SnV NiM and TFB NiM. Hurray for crazyness!

[Leafy_Bug]

And operatives.

 

That too! Take away force speed from shadows!! how dare they run away

[Leafy_Bug]

Me and my raid group must be bat **** crazy to bring me along and clear SnV NiM and TFB NiM. Hurray for crazyness!

 

 

Conclusion : Gratz and Shadow Tanks are fine! Working as intended

[Altheran]

Conclusion : Gratz and Shadow Tanks are fine! Working as intended

 

Don't jump to conclusions, we don't know his spec. It may be as an Infiltration or Balance Shadow.

[thejollygreenone]

Don't jump to conclusions, we don't know his spec. It may be as an Infiltration or Balance Shadow.

 

mmerry=wild-berry which as far as i know plays balance. knowing hes a great player though he probably plays all specs at one point or another ^.^

[mmerry]

I play Balance or Infil depending on fight. (Dps shadows shouldn't discount one spec or the other because zomg X spec is super boring) I dont really touch tanking aside from the occasional sm or hm op if im bored. Im not saying that dps wise we are perfect, but we are far from useless that 95% of the forum posters portray us as.

[thejollygreenone]

I play Balance or Infil depending on fight. (Dps shadows shouldn't discount one spec or the other because zomg X spec is super boring) I dont really touch tanking aside from the occasional sm or hm op if im bored. Im not saying that dps wise we are perfect, but we are far from useless that 95% of the forum posters portray us as.

 

each spec in every class has an advantage in certain situations, so normally players like to excel by mastering multiple specs such as you're mentioning. but i have to note there are plenty of people who choose a certain spec and tend to stick with it purely because of how fond they've become of it. this is the case with me and infiltration, iv'e resolved to use balance if consistency is necessary but i haven't quite had the chance to do so. so all in all, you're correct there are a select few people who are exceptional and have guilds who understand their potential. but the combination of both those traits are more scarce than i'd like, even individually for shadow/sin dps. but even with all this those select few will none-the-less suffer from the shortcomings of this class that are concrete as of now. we need to look at those seemingly extreme shortcomings and how to resolve them. we are not useless, but part our problem lies where we are perceived to be close to useless by the majority of the players of this game.

[Majspuffen]

That too! Take away force speed from shadows!! how dare they run away

 

I have a friend who had a very serious argument about why Force Speed should be removed. I did not agree with him though. I like Force Speed, it's my favourite gap closer in the game since it can be used as an escape tool and it is more flexible than Force Leap for objective play.

 

Anyways, arguing with you is moot. I don't think Shadows are in an okay state, but for objective play they remain beasts. Something needs to be buffed and something needs to be nerfed. Problem with the community seem to be that everyone wants buffs. Had Bioware done nerfs instead, or rather "trimmed" the classes that were performing too well, I bet the state of the game would have been better. But Bioware doesn't "trim". They make major balance changes months apart, solving some issues, creating new ones.

[Przemo_No]

apparently way less people play Shadows than Assasins, assuming from the thread lenght...

anyway, I agree with Xinika, issue is (and for Shadows even more than for Assassins) that our sustained damage is nowhere close to desired one.

 

I play both sides, and since Shadow Infiltration is my main, I feel quite sad that my class does not perform in any PVE raid well. Ok, I get the opening burst, but later it is tragic. In PVP, I willingly run into node and stay there hopeing the team can outmatch the opponents. In both, I feel like I am that "one poor player" who mistakenly has chosen the worst DPS (and tanking) class.

 

I loved the Jedi Consular story (way better than Inquistior one, which actually has serious logic issues - bringing solutions like from magician's hat), loved the voice-over, loved the stealth ability and its consequences, but........ even now trying to play the Czerka event - it's pathetic on Shadow side. I need more damage!

 

I am a stealth/melee class, I need to come invisible and execute the opponent. Punto.

Ok, I can understand my squisiness, but I cannot understand my poor damage.

 

Shadow/Assassin should be "one, deadly hit" class. Haven't the real assassns been like that, after all?

Ok, forget our armor and damage mitigation, but for God's sake, just give us the opportunity to eliminate the opponents quickly!

 

Make others FEAR us, make us unpredictable, make us wanted by tanks, by healers, by other players.

 

Nope, I wil not go into the discussions what ability needs what buff or nerf.

I simply want the class to be what is is expected to be. A silent, instant killer.

 

Vulnerable, for sure, but deadly when proper "measures" have been taken.

Now, we are far from that.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

(EDIT) I agree, that the Phase Walk should be visile only for teammates. Otherwise, it is too obvious for enemies.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Przemo_No
addition

[Kajuana]

Whilst all arguments are valid, like my previous post, what do we want for PVP and PVE?

 

For PVE DPS, maybe buff balance to the extent that it is on par with sentinels? It would still be fluff damage in PvP, but at least that solves the problem with Shadow DPS in end game contents.

For PVE Tanking, add a 50% damage cap of max health whenever Kinetic field is active. Simple solution, won't hurt PvP either.

 

For PVP DPS, maybe move MoM lower down so we can break roots with Force Speed and get insta force lift lower on Balance tree? Should really stop asking to DPS as hard as a sentinel on a sustained level. The concept of highest DPS and burst for a stealth class is utterly OP and ridiculous.

 

For PVP Tanking, TBH I have no idea.

[Kajuana]

Shadow/Assassin should be "one, deadly hit" class. Haven't the real assassns been like that, after all?Ok, forget our armor and damage mitigation, but for God's sake, just give us the opportunity to eliminate the opponents quickly!

 

Good idea, maybe for ignore all enemy armor/defense for 6 seconds after stealth ;p

[Xinika]

For PVP Tanking, TBH I have no idea.

PvP tanking will be easily fixed by the PvE problem being fixed, along with an actual working Resilience.

[Majspuffen]

Whilst all arguments are valid, like my previous post, what do we want for PVP and PVE?

 

For PVE DPS, maybe buff balance to the extent that it is on par with sentinels? It would still be fluff damage in PvP, but at least that solves the problem with Shadow DPS in end game contents.

For PVE Tanking, add a 50% damage cap of max health whenever Kinetic field is active. Simple solution, won't hurt PvP either.

 

As a PvP balance shadow I think it would suck if they only fixed the spec for PvE, since the spec was good for both PvE and PvP in 1.7. Sure, it wasn't in demand like other classes, but it wasn't struggling like Lethality Operatives, Pyrotech Merc or Vengeance Warriors (I played all those classes at one point or another). I think that a well-played Balance Shadow wouldn't be a setback to an RWZ team though. What little RWZ I did on my server last year, I did as Balance Shadow.

 

All we need is a better system for Force Regen (since Rippling Force sucks) and a proc for something that hits instantly and harder... such as Shadow Strike. That would also make the spec more fun to play, because right now I'd rather stab myself in the eye than endure a longer time of PvE as a Balance Shadow.

 

For PVP DPS, maybe move MoM lower down so we can break roots with Force Speed and get insta force lift lower on Balance tree? Should really stop asking to DPS as hard as a sentinel on a sustained level. The concept of highest DPS and burst for a stealth class is utterly OP and ridiculous.

 

For PVP Tanking, TBH I have no idea.

 

I personally think that the high burst should be removed. I think that the stealth classes in this game are a bit flawed. Infiltration Shadows are at least more flexible than Concealment Operatives, since Operatives pretty much revolve around getting Hidden Strike off, and with all the stray AoE going all over the battlefields, it can be hard sometimes.

 

I think this guy has the right idea. He talks about how rogues typically function in MMORPGs and how it's bad. It's about 8 minutes long:

 

Not sure if his idea could be applied to SWTOR though. I think it would be neat if it could; instead of perma stealth that is hard to get back into, we'd have temporary stealth, like Sentinels. Except with a shorter CD and maybe even shorter duration. Concealment and Infiltration would have to be reworked to work around that. Tanks, Balance, healing and Lethality do not really rely on stealth as much.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Majspuffen

[DaftVaduhhh]

I play Balance or Infil depending on fight. (Dps shadows shouldn't discount one spec or the other because zomg X spec is super boring) I dont really touch tanking aside from the occasional sm or hm op if im bored. Im not saying that dps wise we are perfect, but we are far from useless that 95% of the forum posters portray us as.

As per the last round of end-game sets, Shadows are becoming more competitive with each level, but the baseline is *********** horrible.

 

Though good players do a good job no matter the content/spec/class. Kudos to you.

Edited August 10, 2013 by DaftVaduhhh

[Missandei]

Infiltration Shadows are at least more flexible than Concealment Operatives

 

Shadow is a Melee class. Operative - Ranged/Melee.

[Vaerah]

Jesus Christ, you guys sure are defensive. I want this class well, you'll find that I've done my share of complaining when 2.0 hit. But I'm not blind to the fact that even in its gimped state, Shadows are superb at objective play.

 

So, are you suggesting we should also suck at objectives play so to thave the all omnicomprehensive suck class?

[Vaerah]

Doesn't give one a lot of hope when it comes to our class. I wonder if I should just unsub right now rather than wait for disappointment in 2.4.

 

In every MMO this is the only thing that make the devs do something.

SWTOR is just one of the many atrociously mismanaged titles, ripe with potential, dry with results.

[Majspuffen]

So, are you suggesting we should also suck at objectives play so to thave the all omnicomprehensive suck class?

 

I was suggesting that we're very strong in one aspect and very weak in another and that Bioware should make both buffs and nerfs to try and find a middle ground.

[Missandei]

I was suggesting that we're very strong in one aspect and very weak in another and that Bioware should make both buffs and nerfs to try and find a middle ground.

 

The argument that class is good for defending nodes just because it can call incs in time and «hold» a node for a 5 seconds more than other classes just because enemy need to spend these 5 seconds to find you - is not that solid i think. More over, the «stealth defense strategy» is not that hard to counter.

 

My favorite situation when there is only one stealthed enemy defender on the node.

 

ps.

We need devs to bugfix:

1. PhaseWalk. (make it as usefull as other 51lvl abils)

2. Balance tree.

3. Kinetic survivability.

4. Resilence.

 

It is not about buffs. It is a mere bugfixes.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Missandei

[Majspuffen]

ps.

We need devs to bugfix:

1. PhaseWalk. (make it as usefull as other 51lvl abils)

2. Balance tree.

3. Kinetic survivability.

4. Resilence.

 

It is not about buffs. It is a mere bugfixes.

 

I'll just highlight the second thing in that list and we can both agree that that is something we want to see. I'll bury the battleaxe and refrain from speaking of nerfs in this thread.

[thejollygreenone]

I'll just highlight the second thing in that list and we can both agree that that is something we want to see. I'll bury the battleaxe and refrain from speaking of nerfs in this thread.

 

i swear, if infiltration doesnt get fixed because of comments like these i'm quitting this game.

[Majspuffen]

i swear, if infiltration doesnt get fixed because of comments like these i'm quitting this game.

 

What's wrong with that comment?

 

Also I don't think you have anything to worry about. If Bioware didn't acknowledge anything I had to say (along with tons of other posters) whilst 2.0 was on the PTS, I don't see why they should start now. It's their game and they're fit to ruin it however they please.

[Faltun]

(Repost for those who do not read Assassin forums)

 

From an outsider's point of view, they'd think all is well with Assassins / Shadows solely because of two things. Resilience / Shroud and Stealth. While it's fine to sit on the outside and judge the class based on these two advantages (Even though one of them only works half the time) the truth is this class is in the gutter in every field.

 

It took me a while to sift through the delusions of 'omg-burst' and 'We're so cool', but in reality we're not. We're underperforming in virtually every aspect. In PvP and PvE. All three of our specs are currently sub optimal.

 

Does anyone else see a gigantic problem with that?

 

In PvE, Deception (aka Infiltration) is quite possibly, the worst DPS spec in the game and completely useless to the raid in every shape, fashion and form. Balance (aka Madness) has a stupendous ramp-up time based on a series of DoTs that require such precision play, the slightest mistake is an absolute drop in performance. Even at peak levels of perfected play, the spec still pales in comparison to every other viable DPS spec in game. Sins are not even a second-hand choice for progression raids. We simply are not needed and not wanted.

 

Darkness (aka Kinetic Combat) suffers to tank spikiness, and while it is most obvious in PvE, it also quite frankly shows all too well and good in PvP. One could argue we don't even have a tank spec in PvP but rather, a wanna-be-tank spec. Granted, the spec does do decent damage for a 'supposed' tank spec, but the survivability, as an actual tank, is laughable at best. There are times when you can mitigate damage solidly, then there are others where you get shot down faster than a sage.

 

Our 51 ability, Phase Walk, has no use in PvE. It's implementation was clearly meant for PvP. Although, even then, it's not really that good. There's a cast time (lolwhat?), delay on use, no range checker and no buff-remover (goes on CD when you remove the buff). Whilst many of our abilities and specs may look great on paper, the execution is very poorly done. At least, this is how it is now. Lot of it has to do with the fact that our class is not the gem it once was. It is slowly becoming more and more outdated.

 

Operatives wanted a gap closer, they got that and more (See: Roll) which now makes our Force Speed look like a joke. Immortal Juggs in DPS gear have become the old KC / Darkness. (As in great damage, great survivability, great control) Snipers and Marauders both bring more to the table than we can offer. (Flashbang, Hunker-Down, Bloodthirst, Predation, Awe) In addition to their far superior damage. Other classes are seemingly on par with our utility (or have more) in addition to their ability to perform their roles better. (Tanking / DPS)

 

I'm sure some are still being mislead by Deception's *okay* opener burst, or Darkness' ability to be suboptimal but put up 'numbers' on the scoreboard, but sit back for a moment and really think for a second...

 

We're not really that good. Infact, we kinda suck.

 

With 4v4 Arenas around the corner, I'm most excited to get my sin / shadow in there and actually do real PvP. However, these things have been building on me. High-end teams will always have the answer to your opener burst (as Deception) and when that burst doesn't connect, what are you going to do? Sure, you can be a peelbot, interrupt casts and so on and so forth, but compare yourself to other, real DPS classes and suddenly you start lagging behind really fast. It may be too early to judge for Arena, but currently as we are, a lot of people are overrating us.

 

I watch many other sins / shadows go through the same thing. Sometimes when I see a sin open up on my team mates, I somewhat giggle. We know his *okay* burst is coming, then after that, he's so useless it's almost better to just keep him alive. And Balance in PvP? Well, I've relieved myself of that Madness a long time ago...

 

OMG are you kidding me assassins are the best in 1v1 fight just need a bit brain to use them and quite good in team too. shroud just resist tech and force attack and it always does. my force tech attacks could never make damage to an assassin under the effect of shroud. a well used shroud can resist a stun or a smash your brothers, operative dps are so much weaker.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Faltun

[thejollygreenone]

What's wrong with that comment?

 

Also I don't think you have anything to worry about. If Bioware didn't acknowledge anything I had to say (along with tons of other posters) whilst 2.0 was on the PTS, I don't see why they should start now. It's their game and they're fit to ruin it however they please.

 

i apologize if that came off as hostile, i didn't mean for it to be. what i meant is that there's only a select few people who have even mentioned infiltration and even then its very minor. my point is that yes balance needs help, in pvp especially so. we should fix it yes. kinetic needs help as well, they have mitigation that is far from optimal and it needs to be resolved, which will be helping pvp and pve simultaneously, we should fix it, yes. however this seems to be the extent of the conversation on these threads. people need to recognize that shadow/sin needs to be balanced in every build and that if any one should be neglected because the larger part of the community says its fine. i'm here as a player who would like nothing more than to play infiltration in pve but until a few things get fixed it will never be useful for more than 20% of the fights available for nightmare content. to sum up what i meant in my previous comment is that people seem much more inclined to help balance, and kinetic, and don't seem to have a thought of infiltration in their head. i would be immensely disappointed if the devs shared the same view, and again will probably end up quitting if the spec iv'e devoted my time to mastering doesn't become at least somewhat competitive. i have no reason to play otherwise. i'm not interested in a game that doesn't promote equality in variation. this includes such builds as scrapper scoundrels, even though they're decent for pvp they are pretty garbage for pve. in my honest opinion the words "is not viable for" should never begin with a talent build and end with the acronyms pve or pvp. "balance is not viable for pvp". people should be able to play in the talent tree they choose without being crippled in the aspect of the game they choose to play. i believe there is always a way to accomplish this "balance"

[Majspuffen]

i apologize if that came off as hostile, i didn't mean for it to be. what i meant is that there's only a select few people who have even mentioned infiltration and even then its very minor. my point is that yes balance needs help, in pvp especially so. we should fix it yes. kinetic needs help as well, they have mitigation that is far from optimal and it needs to be resolved, which will be helping pvp and pve simultaneously, we should fix it, yes. however this seems to be the extent of the conversation on these threads. people need to recognize that shadow/sin needs to be balanced in every build and that if any one should be neglected because the larger part of the community says its fine. i'm here as a player who would like nothing more than to play infiltration in pve but until a few things get fixed it will never be useful for more than 20% of the fights available for nightmare content. to sum up what i meant in my previous comment is that people seem much more inclined to help balance, and kinetic, and don't seem to have a thought of infiltration in their head. i would be immensely disappointed if the devs shared the same view, and again will probably end up quitting if the spec iv'e devoted my time to mastering doesn't become at least somewhat competitive. i have no reason to play otherwise. i'm not interested in a game that doesn't promote equality in variation. this includes such builds as scrapper scoundrels, even though they're decent for pvp they are pretty garbage for pve. in my honest opinion the words "is not viable for" should never begin with a talent build and end with the acronyms pve or pvp. "balance is not viable for pvp". people should be able to play in the talent tree they choose without being crippled in the aspect of the game they choose to play. i believe there is always a way to accomplish this "balance"

 

Ah yeah. The Shadow Class as a whole is pretty damn borked at the moment and it's a disgrace fixes haven't come yet. I personally am only really invested in Balance, having only tried the other specs casually for fun. But yeah, not a single spec is functioning right now.

 

... with the exception of Shadow Tanks for PvP. They may not be good for guarding healers but they are still good for guarding nodes and owning huttball. That doesn't make the class any less borked though, since Shadow Tanks are underperforming in PvE.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Majspuffen