The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

[StarSquirrel]

Again Wrong that's why Luke is so exceptional rebellion era Luke (after RotJ) was a master of all seven forms as well as Jar'Kai he was not a novice force power alone was not why he beat his father he was both equal skilled and more powerful then his father, that's what makes Luke rise so exceptional try to get any other Force User to do what he did and they would have failed none have ever shown his learning curve. In pure skill by the time he is a grandmaster Luke would best Windu, Windu's Vaapad would have nothing on GM Luke's Djem So.

 

No Tune, just no.

 

I'm sorry but,

 

Luke never learned anything usable as a form beyond form V with some form IV (I think) mixed in during the rebellion era. He didn't learn the other forms to a usable level till many years into the New Republic/NJO era. Also, Luke's Form V (while uber powerful) is incredibly dependent on his raw natural power. If we're discussing skill, Mace is likely superior to Luke.

 

Also, Luke's learning curve is greatly reduced yes, but not as much as you seem to think. Also, he was more concerned with rebuilding the Order and studying the force than learning saber forms he'd never use (he was way too attached to Form V). He had working knowledge enough to fight against them, but he never, imo, mastered them any further than was necessary. Mace didn't have nearly as many distractions and still had plenty of practical experience as well.

Edited August 6, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[LadyKulvax]

No Tune, just no.

 

I'm sorry but,

 

Luke never learned anything usable as a form beyond form V with some form IV (I think) mixed in during the rebellion era. He didn't learn the other forms to a usable level till many years into the New Republic/NJO era. Also, Luke's Form V (while uber powerful) is incredibly dependent on his raw natural power. If we're discussing skill, Mace is likely superior to Luke.

 

Also, Luke's learning curve is greatly reduced yes, but not as much as you seem to think. Also, he was more concerned with rebuilding the Order and studying the force than learning saber forms he'd never use (he was way too attached to Form V). He had working knowledge enough to fight against them, but he never, imo, mastered them any further than was necessary. Mace didn't have nearly as many distractions and still had plenty of practical experience as well.

 

This is correct.

[Selenial]

This is correct.

 

Agreed

[Aurbere]

Vaapad allows Windu to close that distance by using the Force ability of his attacker and turning it against him, essentially leveling the playing field and making lightsaber skills the primary focus on the duel - in which Windu ROFLstomps.

 

*clears throat* Dark Side energies...

[TalonVII]

*clears throat* Dark Side energies...

 

Quite true, but because of the variable nature of Vaapad it had a strong chance of overpowering other force forms by sheer brute strength and unpredictability.

[tunewalker]

"Vader was able to overcome this limitation fairly quickly, developing a refined version of Djem So that continued to include Ataru and Soresu elements, but also added Makashi[16] and Juyo[213] to the mix. In fact, by the time of his first visit to Kashyyyk, Vader had incorporated aspects of all combat forms into his fighting style - even the highest and most dangerous ones"

 

 

Luke perfectly Mirrored this form to do so would mean he would have to have some degree of mastery of all lightsaber forms to pull it off, he learned from watching vader and later from Obi-wan's journal and would refine his technique on Tatooine.

 

"Observing swordsmen such as Darth Sidious might be astonished at such instantaneous learning in a lightsaber duel"

 

by his height he was a master of all seven forms, and even capable of battling with a lightsaber while under the affects of ysalmari as one of our earlier posters brought up.

 

The only help Luke received when facing the emperor that I know of was Leia's battle meditation protecting Luke's mind from Sidious's Dun Mach tactic which, again as far as I know, was the only reason he lost the first duel in pure skill to skill Luke was greater then Sidious this of course is still before his prime.

 

 

Honostly I do believe Luke could defeat Windu in a duel by RotJ he doesn't have any darkside energy to draw on and his form is an amalgamation of all seven lightsaber forms, while windu's is essentially just a mentally superior form to Juyo, using both your opponents darkness flow through you instead of just letting your own darkness fuel you.

 

 

 

P.S. What is the basic principle of Djem So..... oh ya BRUTE FORCE, BRUTE FORCE, BRUTE FORCE. If we don't want to take into account how effective such a style was under people like Vader and Luke who actually not only had Djem So but elements of all forms of Combat into their styles then no Djem So user should ever make this list as "Djem So isn't skill".

Edited August 6, 2013 by tunewalker

[TalonVII]

"Vader was able to overcome this limitation fairly quickly, developing a refined version of Djem So that continued to include Ataru and Soresu elements, but also added Makashi[16] and Juyo[213] to the mix. In fact, by the time of his first visit to Kashyyyk, Vader had incorporated aspects of all combat forms into his fighting style - even the highest and most dangerous ones"

 

 

Luke perfectly Mirrored this form to do so would mean he would have to have some degree of mastery of all lightsaber forms to pull it off, he learned from watching vader and later from Obi-wan's journal and would refine his technique on Tatooine.

 

"Observing swordsmen such as Darth Sidious might be astonished at such instantaneous learning in a lightsaber duel"

 

by his height he was a master of all seven forms, and even capable of battling with a lightsaber while under the affects of ysalmari as one of our earlier posters brought up.

 

The only help Luke received when facing the emperor that I know of was Leia's battle meditation protecting Luke's mind from Sidious's Dun Mach tactic which, again as far as I know, was the only reason he lost the first duel in pure skill to skill Luke was greater then Sidious this of course is still before his prime.

 

 

Honostly I do believe Luke could defeat Windu in a duel by RotJ he doesn't have any darkside energy to draw on and his form is an amalgamation of all seven lightsaber forms, while windu's is essentially just a mentally superior form to Juyo, using both your opponents darkness flow through you instead of just letting your own darkness fuel you.

 

 

 

P.S. What is the basic principle of Djem So..... oh ya BRUTE FORCE, BRUTE FORCE, BRUTE FORCE. If we don't want to take into account how effective such a style was under people like Vader and Luke who actually not only had Djem So but elements of all forms of Combat into their styles then no Djem So user should ever make this list as "Djem So isn't skill".

 

HE DID NOT MASTER ALL 7 FORMS. Hell he could FIGHT with all 7 forms, but he didn't master them till he atleast became a jedi master.

 

Yes he had a working knowledge of many forms of combat, but when he fought vader he was a neophyte jedi knight. Hell Anakin at his stage hadn't mastered Soresu let alone Djem So. Sorry he didn't even have the KNOWLEDGE to master them let alone full working knowledge of all 7 forms.

 

Sorry you are not going to sell me that Luke Skywalker at the events of ROTJ mastered MASTERED all 7 forms of lightsaber combat. And even to the points you are referring to during the Thrawn trilogy, he again was a Jedi Knight, he hadn't mastered anything let alone himself. He was still learning things. Now maybe by the time when he helped defeat the reborn Palpatine, you could argue a case that he'd mastered most forms of lightsaber combat.

 

But 5 years after, he had probably mastered Form 5 at BEST and parts of forms 3 and 4. But all 7. Not a chance in hell. Hell there was never even shown in the books that he was using juyo, nor had a clue how it worked!

[StarSquirrel]

"Vader was able to overcome this limitation fairly quickly, developing a refined version of Djem So that continued to include Ataru and Soresu elements, but also added Makashi[16] and Juyo[213] to the mix. In fact, by the time of his first visit to Kashyyyk, Vader had incorporated aspects of all combat forms into his fighting style - even the highest and most dangerous ones"

 

 

Luke perfectly Mirrored this form to do so would mean he would have to have some degree of mastery of all lightsaber forms to pull it off, he learned from watching vader and later from Obi-wan's journal and would refine his technique on Tatooine.

 

"Observing swordsmen such as Darth Sidious might be astonished at such instantaneous learning in a lightsaber duel"

 

by his height he was a master of all seven forms, and even capable of battling with a lightsaber while under the affects of ysalmari as one of our earlier posters brought up.

 

The only help Luke received when facing the emperor that I know of was Leia's battle meditation protecting Luke's mind from Sidious's Dun Mach tactic which, again as far as I know, was the only reason he lost the first duel in pure skill to skill Luke was greater then Sidious this of course is still before his prime.

 

 

Honostly I do believe Luke could defeat Windu in a duel by RotJ he doesn't have any darkside energy to draw on and his form is an amalgamation of all seven lightsaber forms, while windu's is essentially just a mentally superior form to Juyo, using both your opponents darkness flow through you instead of just letting your own darkness fuel you.

 

 

 

P.S. What is the basic principle of Djem So..... oh ya BRUTE FORCE, BRUTE FORCE, BRUTE FORCE. If we don't want to take into account how effective such a style was under people like Vader and Luke who actually not only had Djem So but elements of all forms of Combat into their styles then no Djem So user should ever make this list as "Djem So isn't skill".

 

Ok, first off, when Luke mirrored Vader's form he was essentially copying it blow by blow, this does not imply at all that he had mastered it or that he even knew it beyond the little he'd seen while fighting Vader. Also, elements of each form is a far cry from mastery. Windu had actually mastered ever form.

 

Also, Vaapad wasn't his only good form though it was far and away imo likely the best form should someone master it. Juyo as a whole is considered super unpredictable while Djem So as you so candidly admitted is rather brutish and straightforward. I find it unlikely that this key aspect of Djem So would be totally lost even with the inclusion of other elements.

 

Against reborn Palps... Windu already kicked Palps to the curb once so that doesn't tell me much other than Luke's force power was great and he had exceptional dueling skill (which isn't in doubt here). But since Windu did already did it once I'd say that doesn't put Luke ahead of him by any means.

 

Fighting while blocked by ysalmari is impressive but we have no comparison to make with Windu so while impressive it is ultimately a side note.

 

Also, Vaapad, well lets let Yoda tell us of that one,

"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen."

So yeah a mentally superior form of Juyo is still miles better than Djem So unless the Djem So is severely augmented by raw force power.

 

So to sum it up, Luke had a passable carbon copy of Vader's style (the bits Luke faced) but he was far from a master (or even passable usage) of any of the forms save for form V by RotJ. And btw, we all know Luke has a dark side, all Windu would need is to get a taste of it and Luke would be done. That said, we're trying to limit the use of force power to the bare minimums and as a version of Juyo the deadliest form per yoda as well as a mastery of every other form, I feel I can safely say Windu beats out RotJ Luke by a good deal and GM Luke by a small margin.

 

Edit: 16 pages in and no #1. This'll take a while

Edited August 7, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[tunewalker]

"Vader's defeat on Mustafar and subsequent internment in life-support armor forced him to alter his style into a new conglomeration: and he incorporated elements of Juyo,[23][24] Ataru, Soresu,[22] and Makashi into his fighting style.[6] Vader again employed Form V on the Death Star against his former master in their final duel—but rather than continuing to fight, Kenobi sacrificed himself.[1] Eventually, the same techniques used by Vader against Kenobi were mirrored and used against him by Vader's son, Luke Skywalker.[1]"

 

 

 

Ben Kenobi's book was described in Shadow's of the empire as "a book that contained all manner of wondrous things for a would-be jedi." I would think this would include not just schematics and means for building a lightsaber, but also the jedi trials, the saber forms and force practicing techniques this was all he had in that year and for 4 years after until he went to dathomir which had holocrons on pretty much everything the order had ever known, if he could perfectly mirror Vader after just instantly dueling him imagine what he could do with a book on lightsaber combat (again described as a book with many things for a would be jedi and one of which was lightsaber construction it shouldn't be hard to believe that with lightsaber construction instructions came instructions on how to properly use the thing)

 

 

Vader who fought with droids described as "faster than an ordinary man, stronger, programmed with the knowledge of 100 sword masters and a dozen different fighting style. Against a normal person would be unbeatable and deadly...." which he still ended up taking at least 30 seconds to be but still found them so easy towards the end of his life that he started fighting them 2 at a time, yet his description of Luke's skill was "the boy's timing was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcomed. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the trail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear."

 

 

Djem So as descrived in a jedi path "Do to its reliance on dominating ones opponent, Form V has at times been considered an inappropriate discipline for jedi. But those who can balance its intimidating aspects with compassionate applications of the force may succeed in besting even their battle masters" noting that Luke believed the compassionate application was in fact neccisarry for true mastery of the form, meaning that Djem So like Juyo was not complete with out a mental mastery attached to it.

 

 

 

Edit: all of this is by the end of Rebellion era, he continued to train in all manners of jedi skills for years to come his philosophy being that you got better through adversity thus he would have to have been constantly refining his saber technique to be useful for all situations he came across and showed himself to be versatile fighting 1v1 multi on 1 both melee and blaster opponents and even opponents that were physically stronger then himself changing his style to be appropriate to take them on with little effort more often then not. If we are talking skill we shouldn't automatically give it to some one because of the form they used but rather how they used the form and how skilled they were with the forms that they knew, since we know Vaapad was rediscovered in the holocrons and we know Luke's learning curve we don't know that he didn't master it as well it would not have been outside his abilities to do so.

Edited August 7, 2013 by tunewalker

[AlexDougherty]

Fighting while blocked by ysalmari is impressive but we have no comparison to make with Windu so while impressive it is ultimately a side note.

Yes, but since we are putting skill ahead of force powers, and this is a demonstration of pure skill it has to be counted. And by the arguement of no comparision, then Windu's beating a stronger opponent would have to be discounted, since the only time Luke came up against someone stronger he was half trained, meaning there is no fair comparison between Luke and Windu. Or we could wing it and say how each demonstrates their skill level, and try to compare them appropriately.

Also, Vaapad, well lets let Yoda tell us of that one, So yeah a mentally superior form of Juyo is still miles better than Djem So unless the Djem So is severely augmented by raw force power.

The Yoda comment is unfair, Sidious/Palpatine avoided a saber fight by hitting Yoda with masses of force attacks, so a comparison between Yoda fighting Sidious and Windu fighting Sidious is impossible.

Edit: 16 pages in and no #1. This'll take a while

Yes, although I think most of us agree on the same four for the top spots, just disagree vigorously about the order. However, at least we are all respecting each others viewpoints, in other threads by now it would have been reduced to silly arguements and insults, thank heavens this hasn't happened.

Edited August 7, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[tunewalker]

Yes, but since we are putting skill ahead of force powers, and this is a demonstration of pure skill it has to be counted. And by the arguement of no comparision, then Windu's beating a stronger opponent would have to be discounted, since the only time Luke came up against someone stronger he was half trained, meaning there is no fair comparison between Luke and Windu. Or we could wing it and say how each demonstrates their skill level, and try to compare them appropriately.

 

The Yoda comment is unfair, Sidious/Palpatine avoided a saber fight by hitting Yoda with masses of force attacks, so a comparison between Yoda fighting Sidious and Windu fighting Sidious is impossible.

 

Yes, although I think most of us agree on the same four for the top spots, just disagree vigorously about the order. However, at least we are all respecting each others viewpoints, in other threads by now it would have been reduced to silly arguements and insults, thank heavens this hasn't happened.

 

Ya most of the time I will say that I like that we can avoid those in these threads it feels like that is fairly rare to see flaming going on, at least until people start really getting heated.

[TalonVII]

Ya most of the time I will say that I like that we can avoid those in these threads it feels like that is fairly rare to see flaming going on, at least until people start really getting heated.

 

Tune look, I don't discount what Luke did. But he hadn't mastered ANY form by the times of ROTJ. I mean have you read shadows of the empire. Luke spent about 4 months on tatooine building his new lightsaber and reading Obi-Wan's journals. He had barely built his lightsaber before Leia contacted him and he spent the next 6-8 months trying to track down Han Solo in carbonite. When did he have the time to really master ANY form before the events of RotJ?

 

He didn't. Hell to master a form, you first have to master yourself, and master the form's philosophy. Hell Luke hadn't even come close to understanding himself let alone a style of saber combat. He took elements of 3 different forms III-V and made something all his own since he was not fully trained.

 

That and in the fight I think Vader wasn't fighting at full combat ability. I mean when he was taunting Luke and Luke came at him in a rage, Vader was caught unprepared. When luke beat him down, vader was so far on the defensive, he got caught so far in the works he didn't know whether to crap or go blind. Had Vader had his defenses in place and fought the battle like he meant to kill luke, I don't think Vader would of lost.

[tunewalker]

Tune look, I don't discount what Luke did. But he hadn't mastered ANY form by the times of ROTJ. I mean have you read shadows of the empire. Luke spent about 4 months on tatooine building his new lightsaber and reading Obi-Wan's journals. He had barely built his lightsaber before Leia contacted him and he spent the next 6-8 months trying to track down Han Solo in carbonite. When did he have the time to really master ANY form before the events of RotJ?

 

He didn't. Hell to master a form, you first have to master yourself, and master the form's philosophy. Hell Luke hadn't even come close to understanding himself let alone a style of saber combat. He took elements of 3 different forms III-V and made something all his own since he was not fully trained.

 

That and in the fight I think Vader wasn't fighting at full combat ability. I mean when he was taunting Luke and Luke came at him in a rage, Vader was caught unprepared. When luke beat him down, vader was so far on the defensive, he got caught so far in the works he didn't know whether to crap or go blind. Had Vader had his defenses in place and fought the battle like he meant to kill luke, I don't think Vader would of lost.

 

Not According to the RotJ novel after vader had been kicked down the stairs he was pissed, full on rage trying as hard as he may to kill Luke, according to the novel Luke even gave up his lightsaber entirely to vader while vader taunted him trying to find him hidden in the pillars and Luke took the saber back from him before fighting, Vader never had a shot at winning the duel in RotJ from the way the book describes it at no point was Luke not in control of the fight now matter how hard vader tried and he did try.

 

 

Edit: and of course according to this "His defeat on Mustafar and subsequent internment in life-support armor forced him to alter his style into a new conglomeration: and he incorporated elements of Juyo,[23][24] Ataru, Soresu,[22] and Makashi into his fighting style.[6] Vader again employed Form V on the Death Star against his former master in their final duel—but rather than continuing to fight, Kenobi sacrificed himself.[1] Eventually, the same techniques used by Vader against Kenobi were mirrored and used against him by Vader's son, Luke Skywalker.[1] " which has several sources backing it up we don't have to guess Lukes form it was the same as Vader's an amalgamation of every form, and I have read Shadows of the Empire I linked a direct quote from the book itself, and he had been training with R2 for a good while before the mercenaries and Dash showed up and he has plenty of time after the book to continue his training as well. Not to mention the Rebellion era still didn't end for another year after Vader's death which is what I was really describing when I said Rebellion Era Luke meaning he had yet another year of war experience and training time, and of course none of this is any where near as skilled as he was as a grandmaster.

Edited August 7, 2013 by tunewalker

[TalonVII]

Not According to the RotJ novel after vader had been kicked down the stairs he was pissed, full on rage trying as hard as he may to kill Luke, according to the novel Luke even gave up his lightsaber entirely to vader while vader taunted him trying to find him hidden in the pillars and Luke took the saber back from him before fighting, Vader never had a shot at winning the duel in RotJ from the way the book describes it at no point was Luke not in control of the fight now matter how hard vader tried and he did try.

 

Again, that's because Vader was not in the right mindset. Luke was. I'll give you that one. Here's the thing about Vader. He fights in a few different forms. There's the human killing machine Vader, then there's angry anakin who's sloppy and makes mistakes.

 

You see both versions RotS. When Anakin fought obi-wan he was angry anakin. Had he been actually killing machine vader that destroyed the jedi temple, Obi-wan wouldn't of had a chance. Same applies with the fight with luke. When he fought luke the second time, he was angry anakin, not the killing machine vader.

[tunewalker]

Again, that's because Vader was not in the right mindset. Luke was. I'll give you that one. Here's the thing about Vader. He fights in a few different forms. There's the human killing machine Vader, then there's angry anakin who's sloppy and makes mistakes.

 

You see both versions RotS. When Anakin fought obi-wan he was angry anakin. Had he been actually killing machine vader that destroyed the jedi temple, Obi-wan wouldn't of had a chance. Same applies with the fight with luke. When he fought luke the second time, he was angry anakin, not the killing machine vader.

 

Again not according to the novel, if you want I can put the entire fight down on here, Vader gave it his all he was at his best and his best was not good enough to best RotJ Luke.

[TalonVII]

Again not according to the novel, if you want I can put the entire fight down on here, Vader gave it his all he was at his best and his best was not good enough to best RotJ Luke.

 

No, vader wasn't I've read the novel, watched the movie, and i've also read Shadows of the empire, Rise of Lord Vader and a few other books. No, he wasn't even close to his "I am a human wrecking machine, I will kill you all" Vader. No he wasn't in that mode because he was fighting Luke. He was in Angry Anakin mode. Had he been in Killing Vader mode, he'd of killed luke and tried not to get any on his boots.

[Deviss]

Windu and Sidious, all the others pale in comparison to the two.

[TalonVII]

Windu and Sidious, all the others pale in comparison to the two.

 

You haven't seen Grand Master Luke Skywalker fight in any books recently. He'd give mace a good run for his money and Sideous, he'd beat straight up.

[StarSquirrel]

Yes, but since we are putting skill ahead of force powers, and this is a demonstration of pure skill it has to be counted. And by the arguement of no comparision, then Windu's beating a stronger opponent would have to be discounted, since the only time Luke came up against someone stronger he was half trained, meaning there is no fair comparison between Luke and Windu. Or we could wing it and say how each demonstrates their skill level, and try to compare them appropriately.

 

You're right, I never said we should disregard the event, but we should understand that Mace never faced a time when he was blocked from force usage. He might have demonstrated the ability to kill two armies or he might have died to a single opponent, we just have no clue. The ysalmari speaks to Luke's prowess, but we must be careful not o put too much stock in it.

 

The Yoda comment is unfair, Sidious/Palpatine avoided a saber fight by hitting Yoda with masses of force attacks, so a comparison between Yoda fighting Sidious and Windu fighting Sidious is impossible.

 

No, no, no. Read the part where it says Juyo is the deadliest form. Or the part about its danger to the opponent, or the part about its difficulty to master... All these speak to Windu's abilities and deadliness. I was actually making no comparison to Yoda rather using him as an in-universe source to show the power of Form VII.

 

Yes, although I think most of us agree on the same four for the top spots, just disagree vigorously about the order. However, at least we are all respecting each others viewpoints, in other threads by now it would have been reduced to silly arguements and insults, thank heavens this hasn't happened.

 

Agreed, I'm glad we're such a clean group here keep it up guys.

[StarSquirrel]

No, vader wasn't I've read the novel, watched the movie, and i've also read Shadows of the empire, Rise of Lord Vader and a few other books. No, he wasn't even close to his "I am a human wrecking machine, I will kill you all" Vader. No he wasn't in that mode because he was fighting Luke. He was in Angry Anakin mode. Had he been in Killing Vader mode, he'd of killed luke and tried not to get any on his boots.

I'd have to agree with Talon, Vader does have a nasty habit of being too emotional when fighting someone important to him. This is actually a general Sith weakness (because they have to harness their emotions) no reason to assume Vader would be immune.

 

Edit: Tune, btw... No, Luke didn't know how to use all forms he copied the bits of Vader's form he'd seen and used that. While those bits included elements from several forms, Luke himself possessed little to no knowledge of these forms and wouldn't learn them to a usable level until much later in life. Luke is good but not that good.

Edited August 7, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Aurbere]

So when are you guys going to get to Luke in his prime?

[Selenial]

So when are you guys going to get to Luke in his prime?

 

I think the thread derailed into Telling Tunewalker off for the Ridiculous statement of Luke Mastering every single form by ROTJ about 2 pages ago

Edited August 7, 2013 by Selenial

[Aurbere]

I think the thread derailed into Telling Tunewalker the Ridiculous statement of Luke Mastering every single form by ROTJ about 2 pages ago

 

Ah. Perhaps we should move on? Just a friendly suggestion.

[Selenial]

Ah. Perhaps we should move on? Just a friendly suggestion.

 

Lol, i think part of my Quote cut out there o.0

 

But agreed, probably for the best.

[Aurbere]

Lol, i think part of my Quote cut out there o.0

 

But agreed, probably for the best.

 

Yes, I think it would be best if we assessed the two in their primes. But I haven't really participated much. Meh.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Aurbere