The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

[Beniboybling]

You seem to forget Luke mastered Vader's form not just Djem So he to mastered all seven forms and incorporated them into a hybrid form by the time of RotJ, when he faced Lumiya and created his Shoto saber he was already toated as a master of Jar'kai having only wielded it for a matter of seconds, the mans learning curve on saber forms was extraordinary mastering all seven forms and Jar'kai in under 5 years and then taking them further and further. Luke would have to be above Vader simply because he took Vader's hybrid form and mastery of the seven forms to a level even vader never did through skill not just force power. He has even been seen battleing with a saber while under the effects of the Ysalmari and still holding his own with just his lightsaber obviously force power is gone there he wouldn't even have the force enhanced strength which is normally necissary for his Djem So style and yet he still had the skills to pay the bills.

Where is it stated that Luke mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat by the time of ROTJ.

 

Bearing in mind that in reality, Luke only held his own against Vader, and if he hadn't gone all rage mode he may very well have lost. Just like Marek lost to Vader on Kamino - because Vader was the superior lightsaber duelist.

 

And if you could give some more info on Luke fighting in the presence of ysalmari that would be very, very helpful.

[TheSelkie]

Then take Mace Windu, he's not the most powerful Force user, and he probably would lose to Luke in a duel. But does that make him a lesser lightsaber duelist?

I would describe this as Windu arguable being a more skilled duelist than Luke, but we're looking for the most powerful duelist. To mean that means who would win with no use of lightning/push etc. but if you can use the force to argument your speed then that makes you a better duelist. I can't see how anyone would beat Luke in lightsaber combat, surely that makes him the most powerful?

[tunewalker]

Where is it stated that Luke mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat by the time of ROTJ.

 

Bearing in mind that in reality, Luke only held his own against Vader, and if he hadn't gone all rage mode he may very well have lost. Just like Marek lost to Vader on Kamino - because Vader was the superior lightsaber duelist.

 

And if you could give some more info on Luke fighting in the presence of ysalmari that would be very, very helpful.

 

Luke was never at any point at risk of losing to his father, its very clearly shown in RotJ that Luke was the one holding back I have debated this with you before, Vader gave it his all Luke was the one holding back and tried his hardest not to injure his father he was never at any risk of losing that duel, he mirrored his fathers form perfectly a form that was comprised of all seven classical forms and he learned them from Obi-wans Journal and from fighting Vader himself, thus learning them both traditionally and much more practically then most as he saw all seven forms in action against him through vader's superb technique.

[Beniboybling]

I would describe this as Windu arguable being a more skilled duelist than Luke, but we're looking for the most powerful duelist. To mean that means who would win with no use of lightning/push etc. but if you can use the force to argument your speed then that makes you a better duelist. I can't see how anyone would beat Luke in lightsaber combat, surely that makes him the most powerful?

As said in the OP by most powerful I mean most skilled. REAL Most Powerful is just the name of the series.

 

So Force speed, valor etc. should be discounted.

[tunewalker]

As said in the OP by most powerful I mean most skilled. REAL Most Powerful is just the name of the series.

 

So Force speed, valor etc. should be discounted.

 

I don't know if they should be entirely discounted because if we were to do that then only Djem So masters who have cybernetics will make it and same with Ataru masters if you get my drift.

[LadyKulvax]

Since when did Vader master all seven forms of lightsaber combat? he employed different parts of all the styles into his personalised version of Form V of which he was a master of both Shien and Djem-So but beyond that he only incorporated elements of the other Forms, he did not master them, I imagine he was highly proficient in Soresu and Makashi as he grew older, but I can't imagine much beyond that.

[TheSelkie]

As said in the OP by most powerful I mean most skilled. REAL Most Powerful is just the name of the series.

 

So Force speed, valor etc. should be discounted.

Fair point, I must have overlooked it. I think removing them is going to make it very, very difficult to make an accurate list, it's easier to compare how good characters are when using the full extent of their abilities rather than trying to speculate on how good someone like Sidious would have been without his speed.

 

Are we also excluding Grievous? If not then he'd have to be quite high up, he fought and beat 5 jedi (including 2 council members) simultaneously without the use of any force powers.

[AlexDougherty]

Where is it stated that Luke mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat by the time of ROTJ.

 

Bearing in mind that in reality, Luke only held his own against Vader, and if he hadn't gone all rage mode he may very well have lost. Just like Marek lost to Vader on Kamino - because Vader was the superior lightsaber duelist.

 

And if you could give some more info on Luke fighting in the presence of ysalmari that would be very, very helpful.

 

He didn't, Luke mastered all the lightsaber forms after ROTJ.

 

In the Presence of Ysalmari he was still extremely skilled with his lightsaber, he could still reflect blaster bolts (which he did when ambushed), and even deflected the turboblasters of an ATAT (I beleive he was also poisoned at the time), and even managed to plan a battle so that he could slice through a key support and collapse a ruin on his attackers. All in the force blocking presence of Ysalmari, meaning he had no force abilities at the time, just plain old fashioned skill.

[AlexDougherty]

Are we also excluding Grievous? If not then he'd have to be quite high up, he fought and beat 5 jedi (including 2 council members) simultaneously without the use of any force powers.

 

Actually a fair point, giving his cybernetic enhancements, he could outfight anyone on the list, maybe even Luke, and unlike the others you can't seperate his actual skill from other atttributes (you can deduce whether Sidious was using the force to help him, but Greivous was so intertwined with his wetware it's impossible)

[Aurbere]

As said in the OP by most powerful I mean most skilled. REAL Most Powerful is just the name of the series.

 

So Force speed, valor etc. should be discounted.

 

In that case, Yoda shouldn't even be considered for the list.

 

I find it amusing that Yoda's skill is discounted because he was "enslaved" to Ataru. In case you haven't noticed, Yoda has neither the size or muscle mass to use forms like Djem So. His use of Ataru is meant to compensate for his limited size and reach.

 

And I'd say he was fairly successful at it, becoming the Form's greatest master.

[Beniboybling]

I think we are taking what I said a little too far here. I'm just saying that skill takes priority over Force power, else this will end you being a rehash of the REAL Most Powerful Force users but minus the unskilled lightsaber duelists. What we are looking for here is who has achieved the greatest mastery over the lightsaber, not who has achieved the greatest mastery over Force Valor or Force Speed. But of course to master lightsaber combat you have to be a Force-user, but this only means that those more powerful Force users such as Yoda, Luke and Sidious, are going to have self-evident skills with a lightsaber. But we have to bear in mind that a lightsaber duel can be one through superior force ability, but that doesn't necessarily make you an inferior force user.

 

This is partly why I'm putting Windu forward for #1 - not only has he mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat, but he's taken one of those forms and perfected it in such a way that the very problem at the source of this distinction between Force ability and lightsaber skill, is solved. Windu is the only Jedi who can take on a considerably more powerful Force user and win - I deem that impressive. More impressive than Yoda and Luke who simply mastered the forms, however they of course get credit for mastering them to such a high level, and in Luke's case in having a ridiculously steep learning curve.

 

And Grievous never mastered a single form, so I wouldn't really consider him for this list.

[Beniboybling]

In that case, Yoda shouldn't even be considered for the list.

 

I find it amusing that Yoda's skill is discounted because he was "enslaved" to Ataru. In case you haven't noticed, Yoda has neither the size or muscle mass to use forms like Djem So. His use of Ataru is meant to compensate for his limited size and reach.

 

And I'd say he was fairly successful at it, becoming the Form's greatest master.

You grossly underestimate Yoda, all his skill doesn't come down to Force valor. Which is not a lightsaber skill. The fact remains he was THE master of Ataru, and used it to overcome his short stature. Force valor was only used so he could keep on going - which all Ataru specialists do.

 

And nobody said Yoda was being discounted. I just feel dedicating yourself to a single form rather than incorporating other forms (and don't tell me Yoda could only use Ataru - even elements of Djem So are not above his reach) is not as impressive as what others have done.

 

That said in light of Rayla's comment I withdraw Vader as a candidate for #2. Though I still feel Windu deserves #1. The only reason he would be beaten by Yoda is through being a lesser Force user. I feel he's the better duelist.

[AlexDougherty]

This is partly why I'm putting Windu forward for #1 - not only has he mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat, but he's taken one of those forms and perfected it in such a way that the very problem at the source of this distinction between Force ability and lightsaber skill, is solved.

 

Windu is the only Jedi who can take on a considerably more powerful Force user and win - I deem that impressive. More impressive than Yoda and Luke who simply mastered the forms, however they of course get credit for mastering them to such a high level, and in Luke's case in having a ridiculously steep learning curve.

 

A bit unfair on Luke, after ROTJ he became so strong he couldn't face a stronger opponent (there weren't any), and I feel you are underestimating how good with a lightsaber Luke became, as far as I know Mace Windu never faced a single opponent without using the Force, Luke did, he faced down an entire Imperial Army (with an ATAT) without recourse to the force.

 

But this is a matter of view, since the entire EU is about to become non-canon, most of Luke's feats will be forever lost. At which point He will have to vanish from the list entirely (unless the new film shoes him backflipping and out-fencing everybody).

[Aurbere]

You grossly underestimate Yoda, all his skill doesn't come down to Force valor. Which is not a lightsaber skill. The fact remains he was THE master of Ataru, and used it to overcome his short stature.

 

Grossly, huh? /sigh

 

Perhaps you missed several of my other posts where I spout Yoda as the best in the Order. Not only that, but I've already said that Yoda is Ataru's greatest master.

 

Perhaps a added to: In that case, Yoda shouldn't even be considered for the list. Would have made my intentions more clear.

 

I still find it odd that you would say that I underestimate Yoda. Though it is difficult to transmit sarcasm through text.

 

(and don't tell me Yoda could only use Ataru - even elements of Djem So are not above his reach)

 

Did I say that? Nope. However, the fact is that Yoda's size prevents him from fulfilling one of the basic principles of Djem So, which is to dominate the duel through strength.

 

Instead, Yoda dominates the duel through sheer speed.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Aurbere

[TalonVII]

Something you have to remember if you ever read the book ROTS. Mace said this about lightsaber styles. It makes up for something you lack, or something you must overcome. Mace made Vaapad to help him deal with the darkness that he knew lurked within, but channeled into the light of his saber.

 

Ataru made up for Yoda's lack of reach and strength. So why did Obi-wan pick Soresu which is considered basically the most blanced of all lightsaber forms and mastered it, because he was well balanced, why he was able to defeat grevious when Mace could not.

 

But because Mace knew this about every form, shows not only his mastery of each form but the PHILOSOPHY behind every form. There was a reason he was a weaponmaster. It along with the fact Ben is bringing, up he could use Vapaad and turn somebody's force power against them and level the playing field, is why Mace I think deserves #1.

 

Also Luke never mastered all 7 forms before ROTJ. He instinctively did some things out of Ataru, and he merely mimics Vaders form V while fighting. He just took Vaders own form, adapted it for his own style and made it his own. It wasn't till FAR later on that he learned every form of lightsaber combat and mastered it all. Hell he didn't even master them all till he was a Jedi Master.

 

No I am amending my list.

 

1. Mace windu

2. Luke Skywalker

3. Sideous

4. Jaina solo[if she ever learned Vapaad and mastered, she'd overtake Mace IMO]

5. Kym, the blademaster who instructed bane.

 

Now after reading many other's words and long thought on atleast the top 5, those would be it.

[TheSelkie]

I think we are taking what I said a little too far here. I'm just saying that skill takes priority over Force power

So you're allowing force powers like speed to be taken into consideration, but you're saying they're less important than lightsaber skill? I don't see how we can accurately weight swordsmanship and force abilities in any sort of meaningful way. Yes, this works with Mace since you can say he must have more skill to be comparable to someone much stronger in the force like yoda, but I don't see it working for the rest of the list. For example, how much of Luke's ability was due to his force prowess? How can we possibly know or quantify that?

[TalonVII]

So you're allowing force powers like speed to be taken into consideration, but you're saying they're less important than lightsaber skill? I don't see how we can accurately weight swordsmanship and force abilities in any sort of meaningful way. Yes, this works with Mace since you can say he must have more skill to be comparable to someone much stronger in the force like yoda, but I don't see it working for the rest of the list. For example, how much of Luke's ability was due to his force prowess? How can we possibly know or quantify that?

 

Take ROTJ. Luke never mastered Form IV, or Form V. Hell when he survived on Could city, that was his raw ability in the force and the VERY limited training he got from Yoda and Kenobi that kept him alive.

 

On the second death star, again that was more his ability in the force and mimicing Vader and throwing in some acrobatics that he did instinctively that beat vader. Hell he really didn't master the light saber till MUCH later on in life. Most of what he did in the movies and it's even in the books, mostly raw ability in the force.

[Lugosi]

#1 Mace Windu

Palpatine can't hang with Vaapad. I don't think Luke would be able to either.

 

 

I think Depa Billaba deserves a spot somewhere on the list, Mace Windu had stated that she bacome better with a blade, I don't quite believe that, be he did say that she nearly defeated him after her brief turn to the dark side. I know this will be a tough one to argue with not much to back it up and they dueled on a planet with great deal of dark side presence. However she was pretty skilled and one of the youngest Masters to sit on the council.

[TheSelkie]

Take ROTJ. Luke never mastered Form IV, or Form V. Hell when he survived on Could city, that was his raw ability in the force and the VERY limited training he got from Yoda and Kenobi that kept him alive.

 

On the second death star, again that was more his ability in the force and mimicing Vader and throwing in some acrobatics that he did instinctively that beat vader. Hell he really didn't master the light saber till MUCH later on in life. Most of what he did in the movies and it's even in the books, mostly raw ability in the force.

But I assume we're ignoring all that and considering him at the peak of his lightsaber prowess. At that point, how can we accurately judge how much of his ability is down to the force? We can't, we can only speculate on it.

 

I maintain that if we compare how each competitor would do against a neutral opponent (one who their style of fighting isn't particularly good or bad against) in a duel then we remove much of the speculation since we can reference actual feats. But it's down to Beni, I just don't see how anyone can say (for example) how good Sidious would be without his speed. We're essentially guessing how heavily people are relying on their strength in the force.

[TalonVII]

But I assume we're ignoring all that and considering him at the peak of his lightsaber prowess. At that point, how can we accurately judge how much of his ability is down to the force? We can't, we can only speculate on it.

 

I maintain that if we compare how each competitor would do against a neutral opponent (one who their style of fighting isn't particularly good or bad against) in a duel then we remove much of the speculation since we can reference actual feats. But it's down to Beni, I just don't see how anyone can say (for example) how good Sidious would be without his speed. We're essentially guessing how heavily people are relying on their strength in the force.

 

At the peak? He hadn't even started yet! I mean read some of the EU books, Luke was still learning about lightsaber combat, he hadn't even come close to his peak yet. But even when he does reach his peak as a Grand Master, I doubt he could of taken and beaten Mace.

[TheSelkie]

At the peak? He hadn't even started yet! I mean read some of the EU books, Luke was still learning about lightsaber combat, he hadn't even come close to his peak yet. But even when he does reach his peak as a Grand Master, I doubt he could of taken and beaten Mace.

You seem to have misinterpreted my comment, I was saying that we're considering Luke's skills at his peak (as Grand Master) and so your previous comment about how he was relying on the force rather than skill against Vader doesn't demonstrate that he didn't become incredibly skilled. You seem to have taken my comment to mean that I thought he was at his peak against Vader.

[TalonVII]

You seem to have misinterpreted my comment, I was saying that we're considering Luke's skills at his peak (as Grand Master) and so your previous comment about how he was relying on the force rather than skill against Vader doesn't demonstrate that he didn't become incredibly skilled. You seem to have taken my comment to mean that I thought he was at his peak against Vader.

 

aha, my bad. But even at his peak Luke was the best saber duelest of the time. His saber skills eventually caught up with his force potential. But I still feel that as a straight up saber duelest, Mace would win out. Even using force powers, Vaapad allows Mace to turn that power back upon the other person through his blade.

 

I still think overall Mace was the better saber duelist of them all.

[tunewalker]

Talon you are wrong about Luke he had Obi-wans journal and in the Journal it had all seven lightsaber forms he had little time to train it and only the one fight with his father but in that 1 year he mastered his father's form and took it to a whole new height by the end of the rebellion era he was a master of all seven forms and Jar'kai.

 

 

As Alex has said he even showed his ability to take on an imperial army with just his saber while under the effects of the Ysalmari that's pure skill.

 

Also if we aren't taking into consideration force power shouldn't physical bodies also be disregarded and just skill used.

[TalonVII]

Talon you are wrong about Luke he had Obi-wans journal and in the Journal it had all seven lightsaber forms he had little time to train it and only the one fight with his father but in that 1 year he mastered his father's form and took it to a whole new height by the end of the rebellion era he was a master of all seven forms and Jar'kai.

 

 

As Alex has said he even showed his ability to take on an imperial army with just his saber while under the effects of the Ysalmari that's pure skill.

 

Also if we aren't taking into consideration force power shouldn't physical bodies also be disregarded and just skill used.

 

Yes but he didn't master 7 forms of lightsaber combat in 1 year. There isn't a sith/jedi alive that can do that. He had about a novice or slightly above skill in form 4 about user's level of form 5 and that's about it.

 

He didn't master all forms till MUCH later in life. Only reason he went toe to toe with vader and won, was raw ability in the force, not with a blade. Had neophyte Jedi knight Luke Skywalker tried to take on Mace in a full no holds barred fight, Mace would of stomped him into the ground.

 

HOWEVER, Grand Master Luke Skywalker vs Mace Windu, it would be a close run thing, but in the end I'd hand it to Mace. NOBODY has ever mastered Vaapad, except Mace. Not even luke skywalker.

[tunewalker]

Yes but he didn't master 7 forms of lightsaber combat in 1 year. There isn't a sith/jedi alive that can do that. He had about a novice or slightly above skill in form 4 about user's level of form 5 and that's about it.

 

He didn't master all forms till MUCH later in life. Only reason he went toe to toe with vader and won, was raw ability in the force, not with a blade. Had neophyte Jedi knight Luke Skywalker tried to take on Mace in a full no holds barred fight, Mace would of stomped him into the ground.

 

HOWEVER, Grand Master Luke Skywalker vs Mace Windu, it would be a close run thing, but in the end I'd hand it to Mace. NOBODY has ever mastered Vaapad, except Mace. Not even luke skywalker.

 

Again Wrong that's why Luke is so exceptional rebellion era Luke (after RotJ) was a master of all seven forms as well as Jar'Kai he was not a novice force power alone was not why he beat his father he was both equal skilled and more powerful then his father, that's what makes Luke rise so exceptional try to get any other Force User to do what he did and they would have failed none have ever shown his learning curve. In pure skill by the time he is a grandmaster Luke would best Windu, Windu's Vaapad would have nothing on GM Luke's Djem So.

 

 

 

 

P.S. Everyone that was a Juyo master was a master of all seven forms as mastery of the other 6 forms was a requirement for its study just an FYI.

Edited August 6, 2013 by tunewalker