The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

[Wolfninjajedi]

That's hardly fair, Kun simply didn't have enough duelist to pit himself against.

 

What we can say is:

 

Exar Kun has never one a lightsaber duel.

Exar Kun was the greatest duelist of his age.

 

But like Rayla said, he was ahead of his time. Waaay ahead.

 

How far ahead though are we talking? Yes he was the greatest of his age, but so were others in future eras. He never lost a duel because he only had 2 people to challenge him. Yes its hardly fair for Kun, but speculation isn't gonna take over fact. I'm not saying he doesn't make the list, but I don't think 6, that should be Vader, Kun can take 7 though.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[TalonVII]

How far ahead though are we talking? Yes he was the greatest of his age, but so were others in future eras. He never lost a duel because he only had 2 people to challenge him. Yes its hardly fair for Kun, but speculation isn't gonna take over fact. I'm not saying he doesn't make the list, but I don't think 6, that should be Vader, Kun can take 7 though.

 

Naa I honestly think that Kun is slightly better in terms with a saber vs Vader. Again that's just my personal Opinion and what I know of Exar Kun. I honestly think his mastery over tier 6 would beat Anakin's mastery of Djem-so and later on Vader's hybrid form. Mostly because and it was stated in the RoTS book, that Djem-So is limited in it's moblitly, Nimian is not, though Anakin would have the edge in strength of blows, but strength isn't always the way to win, many times speed will trump brute strength.

 

And ofcourse in the suit, Vader was even MORE limited when it came to mobility and fluid motion. Kun was never hampered by that.

 

So to break it down I'll give Vader, Strength and power, but that's Vs Kun's speed and mobility. It's a tough call, but most times speed and mobility edges out brute strength. Again one reason I keep pointing to why Luke beat Vader. I mean there are numerous reasons for that, and it's also one of the reasons Luke survived against Vader on Could City. It's one of Vader's BIGGEST weaknesses.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Naa I honestly think that Kun is slightly better in terms with a saber vs Vader. Again that's just my personal Opinion and what I know of Exar Kun. I honestly think his mastery over tier 6 would beat Anakin's mastery of Djem-so and later on Vader's hybrid form. Mostly because and it was stated in the RoTS book, that Djem-So is limited in it's moblitly, Nimian is not, though Anakin would have the edge in strength of blows, but strength isn't always the way to win, many times speed will trump brute strength.

 

And ofcourse in the suit, Vader was even MORE limited when it came to mobility and fluid motion. Kun was never hampered by that.

 

So to break it down I'll give Vader, Strength and power, but that's Vs Kun's speed and mobility. It's a tough call, but most times speed and mobility edges out brute strength. Again one reason I keep pointing to why Luke beat Vader. I mean there are numerous reasons for that, and it's also one of the reasons Luke survived against Vader on Could City. It's one of Vader's BIGGEST weaknesses.

 

Vader doesn't seem to have problems with mobility against fast opponents, sure he is slow but he isn't stupidly slow that he wouldn't be able to keep up. Need I remind, that during his hunt for Jedi that these said Jedi were agile, quick and younger then he was? Yet he was still keeping up with their strikes, blocking, parrying and countering them.

[Aurbere]

About Dooku. I just watched the ROTS duel, and I'm having difficulty seeing where Anakin overpowers Dooku with his power attacks.

 

The only time something like that happens is when Anakin kicks Dooku over the balcony. Otherwise Dooku handles Anakin's attacks just fine.

[TalonVII]

Vader doesn't seem to have problems with mobility against fast opponents, sure he is slow but he isn't stupidly slow that he wouldn't be able to keep up. Need I remind, that during his hunt for Jedi that these said Jedi were agile, quick and younger then he was? Yet he was still keeping up with their strikes, blocking, parrying and countering them.

 

That's because many who were left weren't up to Vader's caliber to begin with. Somebody like Kun is. And when you point to Obi-wan, he never wanted to beat vader in the first place. He was merely buying time for Luke to escape. I think Obi-wan knew at best he could fight to a stalemate, but if he tried to run with Luke, they'd all be caught.

 

That being said, again, put vader up against somebody like Kun, well that's a flip of a coin on who would win. But if I had to lay bets, I'd lay bets on Kun.

[Aurbere]

Vader doesn't seem to have problems with mobility against fast opponents, sure he is slow but he isn't stupidly slow that he wouldn't be able to keep up. Need I remind, that during his hunt for Jedi that these said Jedi were agile, quick and younger then he was? Yet he was still keeping up with their strikes, blocking, parrying and countering them.

 

An'ya Kuro... (in your favor)

Edited August 15, 2013 by Aurbere

[TalonVII]

An'ya Kuro... (in your favor)

 

Aurbere, answer me this, how fluid is Vader? I mean when you watch him fight, he fights like he's inside a box and really can't move outside that box. Now if he was just a normal hum drum fighter with a sword, because he doesn't change and adapt, he'd get his butt reamed.

 

Granted with the force that changes things, but it still doesn't change the basic principals of swordsmanship. I mean lets face it, a guy with limited mobility, doesn't really raise his arms above his had, can't use his hips, and while his footwork is excellent it's again, very mechanical way of fighting. It's like a guy fighting with a Flamberge. Once vader commits to an attack or parry, he's fully committed, there really from what I have seen no, quick change in direction and going elsewhere, or feints. When he attacks he's committed.

 

But hey this is from what I perceive when I've watched Vader fight and what I remember from the books. Before he was encased in the suit, there was feints, misdirection changes in attacks, everything a master swordsman does. When I see Anakin in the Vader suit, I don't see that.

 

Major flaws why I don't consider him as great as some other swordsmen.

[Beniboybling]

About Dooku. I just watched the ROTS duel, and I'm having difficulty seeing where Anakin overpowers Dooku with his power attacks.

 

The only time something like that happens is when Anakin kicks Dooku over the balcony. Otherwise Dooku handles Anakin's attacks just fine.

How about the part where Dooku gets his hands chopped off?

 

No, but I see your point, though to be honest I think its just the way the fights are scripted. Djem So doesn't seem to come across as nearly as clearly as it does in the Original Trilogy. I mean, look at the duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan and tell me you can see a difference between their fighting styles. I cannot.

 

However the novel does state that it was taking all of Dooku's Force energy to withstand the attacks. That said, it is somewhat evident. I mean look at

part again. We have Dooku rapidly backpedalling and a noticeable lack of the wide flourishes we see prior, instead its very tight blocks. Then he have Anakin force a block and shove him back. Then we have two massive hits and you can see Dooku's blade being batted away fairly aggresively. And then we have Anakin shunt his blade down and slice off his hands. It wasn't going well for Dooku.

 

Lets remember though its not a case of battering ram meets flimsy wooden gate, Dooku can still block Anakin's attacks but he can't redirect them - robbing him of one of Makashi's primary elements.

[Beniboybling]

Vader may not be fluid, but he more than makes up for it by being tight, crisp, and lethally effective.

[Aurbere]

Aurbere, answer me this, how fluid is Vader? I mean when you watch him fight, he fights like he's inside a box and really can't move outside that box. Now if he was just a normal hum drum fighter with a sword, because he doesn't change and adapt, he'd get his butt reamed.

 

Granted with the force that changes things, but it still doesn't change the basic principals of swordsmanship. I mean lets face it, a guy with limited mobility, doesn't really raise his arms above his had, can't use his hips, and while his footwork is excellent it's again, very mechanical way of fighting. It's like a guy fighting with a Flamberge. Once vader commits to an attack or parry, he's fully committed, there really from what I have seen no, quick change in direction and going elsewhere, or feints. When he attacks he's committed.

 

But hey this is from what I perceive when I've watched Vader fight and what I remember from the books. Before he was encased in the suit, there was feints, misdirection changes in attacks, everything a master swordsman does. When I see Anakin in the Vader suit, I don't see that.

 

Major flaws why I don't consider him as great as some other swordsmen.

 

Again, I shall refer you to the duel on Cophrigin V. High-level Ataru master with tons of flips and acrobatics does not break Vader's defense.

[Aurbere]

*snip*

 

All I'm saying is that Djem So is not some sort of insta-win against Dooku. The novel flat-out states that Anakin was striking with the force of a meteor. So based upon Dooku defending against it, I feel that I am just in saying that Dooku can defend against Djem So.

[Wolfninjajedi]

That's because many who were left weren't up to Vader's caliber to begin with. Somebody like Kun is. And when you point to Obi-wan, he never wanted to beat vader in the first place. He was merely buying time for Luke to escape. I think Obi-wan knew at best he could fight to a stalemate, but if he tried to run with Luke, they'd all be caught.

 

That being said, again, put vader up against somebody like Kun, well that's a flip of a coin on who would win. But if I had to lay bets, I'd lay bets on Kun.

 

Obi-Wan was gonna lose the duel regardless, he knew that. But that isn't the point, the Jedi that were up against him were still faster then him, he also did go up against a doubleganger of Darth Maul, they were said to be equals and Maul only got victory via a cheapshot.

 

Vader is fluid and crisp with his attacks as noted here...

 

Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate Forte's and Kulka's strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs

 

Also here, being described as a droid....

 

He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back...She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems.

 

Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning-fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip.

 

Performing a fast sweep that nearly knocks the saber from Shryne's hand.

 

Lets also look into this fact...

 

These training droids look much like the typical ASP droids found in menial servant jobs throughout the Galaxy. Vader adopted the ASP 19 series frame because it was sturdy and relatively easy to repair if not too seriously damaged. However the basic frame was all Vader used when designing his training droids. He had most of the main body components developed from reinforced alloys so the droids would hold up better under combat stresses and lightsaber hits. The asp's single visular ocular was replaced by a compact high speed visual sensor, with special interface couplings to allow faster transmission of visual data and quicker responses through advanced servomotors. Vader ordered the droids to be fitted with advanced AA-1 verbo brains-the same processors used in Cybot Galactica's 3PO series human-cyborg relations droid. But where the protocol droids processors could store millions of languages, these vibro brains are packed full of combat techniques. It is even rumored that part of the droids programming comes from a Jedi holocron with personal lightsaber techniques of maaster Vo'ren Faalo.

 

These units are programmed at Vader's castle. The castle compute draws all techniques from a secured file and imprints this information on the droids processors. This information is regularly updated, allowing the droids to be improved over time and allowing the experience of earlier droids to be programmed into any new asp droids

 

He has personal ASP droids, fitted to withstand lightsaber strikes and are updated with combat techniques and high speed visual sensors, the information was regularly updated to make them more improved and experienced.

[LadyKulvax]

As I have been saying, mastering Niman to the highest degree is absolutely the best way to go, if you can spare the time for it, if you take it to that level, you are a master of everything, but Kun didn't settle for that, he did two things:

 

He basically mastered Ataru and used it's speed to greatly increase his blows and the speed of his moves over-all, he also took Juyo's unpredictability and power blows, crazy as all hell styles and techniques and replaced the Moderation, which is considered the sole weakness of Niman, he has literally perfected lightsaber combat, he mastered the best form to master and then made himself even faster and then got rid of the form's one weakness.

 

Baas couldn't even tell what lightsaber form Kun was using and his former apprentice was too fast for him to keep any proper track of and this is from a master lightsaber combatant.

 

If that isn't hybrid level lightsaber mastery, I don't know what is.

Edited August 15, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[TalonVII]

Again, I shall refer you to the duel on Cophrigin V. High-level Ataru master with tons of flips and acrobatics does not break Vader's defense.

 

Hmm, which book or comic is that in, I'll have to read that again.

[TalonVII]

Obi-Wan was gonna lose the duel regardless, he knew that. But that isn't the point, the Jedi that were up against him were still faster then him, he also did go up against a doubleganger of Darth Maul, they were said to be equals and Maul only got victory via a cheapshot.

 

Vader is fluid and crisp with his attacks as noted here...

 

 

 

Also here, being described as a droid....

 

 

 

 

 

Performing a fast sweep that nearly knocks the saber from Shryne's hand.

 

Lets also look into this fact...

 

 

 

He has personal ASP droids, fitted to withstand lightsaber strikes and are updated with combat techniques and high speed visual sensors, the information was regularly updated to make them more improved and experienced.

 

Wolf yes vader is fluid and crisp, inside of his own box. I mean watch him fight, his hand never really leave the box from between his sholders and no lower than his waiste. So inside that box, yes he is as crsip and as precise as he could be. Get him outside of that box, you'd probably find out he's nowhere near as fluid and crisp as you claim.

 

See this is the point I am trying to drive across. If you fight in Vader's realm, he's as good as anybody. Fight outside of it and he quickly falls off.

 

Hell Boba Fett fought the man to a standstill. Hell Jax Pavan, who was having force issues fought vader to a standstill then got away. Watch ESB wolf. there's the scene where luke and Vader are dueling right before Luke looses his hand. Remember the strike Luke gets on Vader's sholder. I mean watch how vader fights. He's crisp and clean but when he commits to a move, there's no redirecting, no going back, no feint. He commits to a strike, he can't variate from it. That's a HUGE weakness that can be exploited. Why Luke was able to get that strike on his sholder. Vader commited, couldn't get his guard back in time and luke got the hit in.

 

This is a major flaw in Vader's style.

[Beniboybling]

OK I think its time for an in-depth comparison, I think this time I'll be considering application as equal to knowledge and understanding given that, as someone pointed out, practical knowledge is just as good as theoretical knowledge.

 

Knowledge

 

Vader: achieved absolute mastery over Djem So, and as well as being highly skilled in Jar'Kai and Ataru implemented all seven forms of lightsaber combat into a hybrid form, pointing to considerable knowledge across all fields.

 

Exar Kun: achieved an incredible level of mastery over Niman, pushing it to extremes beyond the forms natural capacity. As Niman incorporates elements from Form I-V this gave him competent mastery over all of these forms. However he coupled with this mastery over Juyo, and an increased mastery over Ataru.

 

Dooku: as a specialist, Dooku only ever mastered Makashi, but did so to the highest degree. He also likely possessed a considerable degree of knowledge on the other forms as he was aware of their weaknesses.

 

I think I'd give the edge to Exar Kun in this field, both Vader and Kun mastered their personal forms to the highest known degree, and both possessed knowledge of all other forms. However through Niman Kun became an effect master of all forms, and coupled with with a mastery over Juyo that Vader never achieved, and a mastery over Ataru. However Vader too was a highly skilled Ataru user, and his knowledge is very impressive. So the edge in minor. Dooku unfortunately as a specialist, falls behind, his knowledge of anything outside of Makashi simply doesn't compare.

 

Understanding

 

Vader: displayed an excellent understanding of the lightsaber forms through his creation of a hybrid form like none-other, which not only incorporated elements from all seven forms, but was retooled to work fluidly with his mechanical suit. Not only is this unprecedented, but overcoming such massive weaknesses and understanding how to use his suit to maximum effect is very impressive and shows a high level of understanding indeed.

 

Exar Kun: possessed an understanding of the lightsaber forms years ahead of his own order. Not only taking Niman to new and unrecognizable levels, but mastering the rare Jar'Kai form and the unheard of and practically non-existent saberstaff - mastering it utterly and complete without any exterior training at all.

 

Dooku: showed a great deal of understanding through his absolute mastery over Makashi, recognising its weaknesses are overcoming them almost completely.

 

This is a very tough one to call. On one hand we have Vader, who created a hybrid form like no other, with almost no weaknesses, and mastered the weaknesses of his own suit. And on the other hand we have Exar Kun who was simply ahead of his time. Overall I'd say it is a draw between them, as Vader's hybrid form was incredibly advanced for his time as well, and had many of the Jedi he faced stunned. No edge to be given here. But again Dooku falls short, he certainly understood the ins and outs of Makashi, but not much beyond that.

 

Application

 

Vader: was a formidable and utterly lethal lightsaber duelist, capable of handling every and any lightsaber form thrown at him. His application of the form was crisp and effective, and though he had few to really challenge himself against, those he did face he utterly dominated. Even taking 8 lightsaber duelists on and winning.

 

Exar Kun: was also formidable, beating his own master - who was himself a battlemaster - on two occasions, the first before he reached his prime. His application of his form was utterly devastating, even going as far as to change the length of his blade constantly in the midst of combat - showing remarkable technical ability.

 

Dooku: was also a dominating duelist, and his stunning application of Makashi caught off guard all but the greatest of duelists. He dominated Obi-Wan Kenobi and was skilled enough to take on Master Yoda. Even going as far to beat Mace Windu, a swordsmaster, in a sparring match.

 

To be quite honest I'm not sure anyone gets the edge here, in battle these guys absolute school there opponents. Its almost laughable. They are just crazy ROFLstomping dominators. No edge can really be accurately given.

 

If these duelists where ever to come together in a three-way duel, the results would be absolutely explosive. And they'd probably all die from exposure to their own combined awesomeness. But overall Kun, given that he has gained the only edge, comes out on top. His knowledge of the lightsaber forms is notably superior, and in all other categories he matches Vader's prowess. Dooku unfortunately falls to the bottom of the pile, losing in two categories, but he is still a close contender. And I'd definitely nominate him for #8.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Wolf yes vader is fluid and crisp, inside of his own box. I mean watch him fight, his hand never really leave the box from between his sholders and no lower than his waiste. So inside that box, yes he is as crsip and as precise as he could be. Get him outside of that box, you'd probably find out he's nowhere near as fluid and crisp as you claim.

 

See this is the point I am trying to drive across. If you fight in Vader's realm, he's as good as anybody. Fight outside of it and he quickly falls off.

 

Hell Boba Fett fought the man to a standstill. Hell Jax Pavan, who was having force issues fought vader to a standstill then got away. Watch ESB wolf. there's the scene where luke and Vader are dueling right before Luke looses his hand. Remember the strike Luke gets on Vader's sholder. I mean watch how vader fights. He's crisp and clean but when he commits to a move, there's no redirecting, no going back, no feint. He commits to a strike, he can't variate from it. That's a HUGE weakness that can be exploited. Why Luke was able to get that strike on his sholder. Vader commited, couldn't get his guard back in time and luke got the hit in.

 

This is a major flaw in Vader's style.

That is a good point, Vader's crisp execution and moment can work to his disadvantage. But regardless I feel the very fact he managed to fight so effectively with a mechanical suit (you've read Dark Lord - you know how crap that suit was) makes up for that weakness.

[Wolfninjajedi]

In regards to Boba fighting Vader to a standstill, he did no such thing. That fight was so completely one sided in the favor for Vader, as for Vader vs Luke in ESB...remember however Vader was holding back he wasn't fighting to his fullest because he was trying to turn Luke rather then kill him.

 

So while yes Luke was able to get a strike on Vader, Vader wasn't really trying in the duel...if he actually was he would have mopped the floor and killed Luke rather quickly at the time.

 

Now as for Kun, lets not forget that he had to resort using his double bladed saber against Baas to take his master by surprise of a weapon he never had encountered before. Before this, Baas seemed to be doing pretty well against him.

 

If Baas who hasn't really shown much in the way of saber combat, could hold his own against Kun and force him to use his double bladed saber. I have no doubt future duelists who would become better, would be able to do the same if not beat him.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[LadyKulvax]

Now as for Kun, lets not forget that he had to resort using his double bladed saber against Baas to take his master by surprise of a weapon he never had encountered before. Before this, Baas seemed to be doing pretty well against him.

 

In their final battle, baas couldn't even tell what form he was using and couldn't keep track of his blows and this was before he revealed his second blade and it was pretty much the killing blow there and then when he did so.

[Wolfninjajedi]

In their final battle, baas couldn't even tell what form he was using and couldn't keep track of his blows and this was before he revealed his second blade and it was pretty much the killing blow there and then when he did so.

 

This is true, but still...Baas was still able to fight Kun despite of this. Besides just because Baas couldn't tell what form Kun used, doesn't mean future duelists wouldn't be able to given the knowledge and other lightsaber forms that appeared and so forth.

[Aurbere]

*snip*

 

I'm afraid you missed a great deal of Dooku's understanding and knowledge.

 

Count Dooku had a working knowledge of each lightsaber form, as shown by his instruction General Grievous. Not only that, but his knowledge and understanding of each form allowed him to devise tactics to counter certain forms. For instance, Dooku attempted to use an 'anti-Ataru' maneuver on Obi-Wan, but the latter's Soresu mastery prevented it. He also devised tactics that were 100% effective on Qui-Gon Jinn (one of the greatest Ataru masters in Jedi history).

 

His knowledge and mastery of lightsaber combat allowed him to sit in the same league as Mace Windu and Yoda.

 

Also, Dooku's lectures on lightsaber combat were mandatory study for two generations of Jedi.

[Beniboybling]

I'm afraid you missed a great deal of Dooku's understanding and knowledge.

 

Count Dooku had a working knowledge of each lightsaber form, as shown by his instruction General Grievous. Not only that, but his knowledge and understanding of each form allowed him to devise tactics to counter certain forms. For instance, Dooku attempted to use an 'anti-Ataru' maneuver on Obi-Wan, but the latter's Soresu mastery prevented it. He also devised tactics that were 100% effective on Qui-Gon Jinn (one of the greatest Ataru masters in Jedi history).

 

His knowledge and mastery of lightsaber combat allowed him to sit in the same league as Mace Windu and Yoda.

 

Also, Dooku's lectures on lightsaber combat were mandatory study for two generations of Jedi.

Well like I said, Dooku likely possessed a considerable degree of knowledge on the other forms. However I don't feel the working knowledge you refer to outweighs an actual application of the forms.

[LadyKulvax]

This is true, but still...Baas was still able to fight Kun despite of this. Besides just because Baas couldn't tell what form Kun used, doesn't mean future duelists wouldn't be able to given the knowledge and other lightsaber forms that appeared and so forth.

 

That is still not the point, Kun was thrashing him and even in his dialogue, he reveals his second blade just to show off and rub it in Baas' face that Kun had taken the day's lightsaber combat and made it look amateur in comparison to his own understanding and technique.

 

This guy was a breakthrough and a revolutionary in so so many ways for his time, he introduced the saberstaff, he showed off techniques and forms that the Jedi couldn't even put a finger on until much later and was responsible for the large introduction of Jar'kai lightsaber combat to the Jedi and the Sith and he was the first person on record known to use the unpredictable technique of randomly changing blade lengths.

 

He literally paved the way for the future and there still wasn't anyone until thousands of years later that began to match and then surpass his ability to meld forms into a killing machine.

Edited August 15, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Wolfninjajedi]

That is still not the point, Kun was thrashing him and even in his dialogue, he reveals his second blade just to show off and rub it in Baas' face that Kun had taken the day's lightsaber combat and made it look amateur in comparison to his own understanding and technique.

 

This guy was a breakthrough and a revolutionary in so so many ways for his time, he introduced the saberstaff, he showed off techniques and forms that the Jedi couldn't even put a finger on until much later and was responsible for the large introduction of Jar'kai lightsaber combat to the Jedi and the Sith and he was the first person on record known to use the unpredictable technique of randomly changing blade lengths.

 

He literally paved the way for the future and there still wasn't anyone until thousands of years later that began to match and then surpass his ability to meld forms into a killing machine.

 

I'm not arguing any of that, I just feel there are those better then Kun at saber combat. He isn't the end all be all guy for everything.

[LadyKulvax]

I'm not arguing any of that, I just feel there are those better then Kun at saber combat. He isn't the end all be all guy for everything.

 

No one said he is, but he was damned close and everything he achieved is all the more impressive because he was the first on record to do almost all of it, this guy is more like an inventor than a practitioner.

Edited August 15, 2013 by LadyKulvax