The REAL Most Powerful Lightsaber Duelists

[Beniboybling]

Kam and Corran just added to the pot of combat experience and Luke wanted that since he didn't discourage other forms of weapons or martial arts at all. The idea of the three forms is being extrapolated from the idea that the strong, medium and fast style exist, but take a look at the sources for this

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Strong_style as you can see it only makes an appearance in Jedi academy and Jedi Outcast, and I can tell you from playing the games they only appear as a mechanic not in a cut scenes. Further more it is said to be in the book of sith, but look up the book of sith. It was a book written THOUSANDS of years prior and had things from Malgus, Bane, Plaegus, Sidious, and supposedly had comments added in by Vader, Ventress, and Mace windu. Further more if you look up what information it had on Saber combat the only ones listed are Dun Mach, Djem So, and Juyo/Vaapad. So if the three styles were invented (don't think it was since I just threw a wrench in there existance) it would have been done with full knowledge of the original 7 forms, meaning if it did exist then Luke technically created 3 hybrid forms.

Actually, and I was thinking about this but forgot. Bane makes reference from the strong style:

 

There are two key forms of lightsaber combat a Sith must master: Strong style and Fast style. The latter emphasizes footwork, speed, precision and acrobatics. With some exceptions - such as the tactics of my own apprentice - Fast style is rarely suited for a Sith. The dark side supplies us with strength, and that strenght must be used. Hate makes us powerful.

 

Strong style is expressed as djem so - an ancient philosophy that requires you to combine your body and your muscular strength with the energising drug of anger so that the execution of your blows will land with enough force to crack armor...

 

[At this point Luke makes a comment: My style is a hybrid, but its built on what I now understand is considered the Jedi Form V. Even the more aggressive Jedi Styles emphasize defense, while the Sith only seem to care about attack.]

 

...Another facet of Strong style defense is shien, or blocking incoming blaster fire...

 

Basically it would seem strong, fast and medium are merely substitute names for certain elements of the Jedi forms. And Luke's comment would indicate that he understood this, and was gaining more and more knowledge on the forms. I'd speculate that as more information came to the fore, the terms strong, fast and medium became obsolete and they were simply referred to as the traditional forms, because the Jedi possessed enough information to be more specific. So yes I think it is reasonable to believe Luke mastered all the forms.

[Beniboybling]

yes do you think he could take on Exar Kun and win? Or Bane. Sorry as good as Vader was at Djem-So, from what I have read, Bane is even BETTER at Djem-so, and ofcourse like you pointed out in another thread, Exar Kun and Nimian, would wreck Vader in a HURRY.

??? Bane a better Djem So duelist than Vader? Really? Not a chance. Vader was THE master of Djem So.

[Beniboybling]

In all fairness, Revan fought with a Red blade and purple blade on some occasions, though it was not his Form of choice... Just sometimes fitted the situation better... He Dual-Wielded when necessary.

 

He in the end preferred the Single green blade.. (I have a theory on that, do you think he put the Mantle of the Force, and the Heart of the Guardian, in one blade? Orange+Cyan = Greeny)

No, he didn't. Ever. Not even for lols. Edited August 13, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Yes Exar Kun would and for one very simple reason. Which I find your lack of knowledge even MORE disturbing. Vader had now real flow, he was jerky and very methodical, not as flowing as he was when he was Anakin Skywalker. Which is another reason why Luke eventually beat him, Luke was more fluid and not restricted as Vader was. Simple reason right there Kun would pick him apart IMO.

 

Vader was restricted to what moves and stances he could take because of his mutilation. Hybrid form be damned along with Djem-so. Read "rise of lord vader", vader even said it himself, he could not move the way he used to, and realized he never would. His hybrid Djem-so, was never as good as his mastery was when he had most of his natural limbs.

 

Come on Aubere, that's not lack of faith, that's just cold hard reality.

 

Lack of knowledge, huh? Don't insult me. Instead watch

[Aurbere]

Considering that the lectures on lightsaber combat of Cin Drallig and Count Dooku came into the hands of the Jedi Order, it is very likely that Luke had a fairly broad knowledge of the Jedi fighting forms.

[Aurbere]

??? Bane a better Djem So duelist than Vader? Really? Not a chance. Vader was THE master of Djem So.

 

Bane's Djem So really wasn't that great.

 

A part of me would like to say that Plo Koon has displayed greater Djem So skill than Bane, but no one would believe me.

[Beniboybling]

Yes Exar Kun would and for one very simple reason. Which I find your lack of knowledge even MORE disturbing. Vader had now real flow, he was jerky and very methodical, not as flowing as he was when he was Anakin Skywalker. Which is another reason why Luke eventually beat him, Luke was more fluid and not restricted as Vader was. Simple reason right there Kun would pick him apart IMO.

 

Vader was restricted to what moves and stances he could take because of his mutilation. Hybrid form be damned along with Djem-so. Read "rise of lord vader", vader even said it himself, he could not move the way he used to, and realized he never would. His hybrid Djem-so, was never as good as his mastery was when he had most of his natural limbs.

 

Come on Aubere, that's not lack of faith, that's just cold hard reality.

The Rise of Darth Vader will not give you the full picture, to quote Wookieepedia:

 

Initially after gaining the suit, Vader was forced to rely on his newly enhanced strength to batter his opponents, utilizing a clumsy method that utilized stiffly executed vertical strikes to wear down his opponent, although he included elements of Soresu and Ataru bladework in this...

 

...However, Vader was able to overcome this limitation fairly quickly, developing a refined version of Djem So that continued to include Ataru and Soresu elements, but also added Makashi and Juyo to the mix. In fact, by the time of his first visit to Kashyyyk, Vader had incorporated aspects of all combat forms into his fighting style - even the highest and most dangerous ones. Rather than attempting to fight through the bulky and heavy armor, Vader fought with it, utilizing the armor's weight and his powerful prosthetics to provide his blows with incredible force, while relying on the main articulation points at the elbows and wrists for precision. With this new form, Vader regained some of his old agility, and his bladework was brutally effective. He never utilized anything less than a killing blow, and his swordplay demonstrated crispness and unpredictability, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he favored. Even the most simplistic moves contained enough strength to nearly disarm his opponents.

 

Vader may have started off clunky, but he ended up crisp and effective, a formidable lightsaber form more than capable of taking on Exar Kun, who for the record was unable to overcome Ulic-Qel Droma, an inferior duelist to Vader.

[Beniboybling]

Bane's Djem So really wasn't that great.

 

A part of me would like to say that Plo Koon has displayed greater Djem So skill than Bane, but no one would believe me.

A lot of people seem to be quite infatuated with Darth Bane, but seem to forget that his Djem So was incapable of breaking Zannah's Soresu.

[Aurbere]

A lot of people seem to be quite infatuated with Darth Bane, but seem to forget that his Djem So was incapable of breaking Zannah's Soresu.

 

*Solemn nod*

[LadyKulvax]

who for the record was unable to overcome Ulic-Qel Droma, an inferior duelist to Vader.

 

The duel never lasted for long and he wasn't even in his prime, by the time of his corrupting the Knights/Padawans, Ulic admitted Kun had left him in the dust.

[Beniboybling]

As a final point, based on my rudimentary knowledge of Darth Caedus. I'd nominate him for #4.

 

Primarily based on that fact that Sidious at the height of his power was defeated by Luke Skywalker far from his prime - albeit with the help of battle meditation - in lightsaber combat. Whereas Caedus fought on par and wounded Skywalker in his prime, despite being the inferior Force user.

 

I'd say it was Caedus' lightsaber skills which allowed him to fight against Luke. And Sidious' lack of that led him to being defeated by a pre-prime Skywalker. Of course Sidious is still a formidable opponent, and I'd nominate him for #5.

 

And just to reinforce Caedus' skills:

 

During the events of the Disciples of Ragnos Crisis, Katarn had already become one of the strongest swordsmen in the New Jedi Order and successfully trained Jaden Korr, arguably the most famous hero during those events. An extraordinary swordsman, Katarn became the New Jedi Order's foremost Battlemaster. His general mastery of the Force was incredible and surpassed all but the strongest Jedi Masters.

 

Darth Caedus schooled Kyle Katarn like Sidious schooled Fisto, Tinn and Kolar - despite micro-managing several over Jedi in the process. Katarn simply didn't stand a chance at all.

[UncleOst]

A lot of people seem to be quite infatuated with Darth Bane, but seem to forget that his Djem So was incapable of breaking Zannah's Soresu.

 

...you freaking kidding me? Zannah was literally scrambling from the force of Bane's melee!!

 

Edit. Well, her soresu was sufficient. After further thought, had she not spent energy with acrobatics, then tripped, The fight may have lasted indefinitely. She barely survived the initial onslaught, but she did force Bane to attempt to try and outwit her defences.

 

 

Come to think of it, Zannah should be regarded higher on all accounts than she is.

Edited August 13, 2013 by UncleOst

[GrimAce]

I don't really want to read through the last 34 pages, so forgive me if I'm covering points that have already been raised and/or dismissed. I just want to make a few comments on the list so far and my thoughts on it before proceeding ahead.

 

I'm going to start with a few basics regarding consideration. I'm sure a few people have mentioned that Force Power shouldn't be much of a factor in raw dueling skill, and certain particular powers and buffs used should be ignored as best as possible in terms of this particular discussion. This immediately weakens both Yoda and Palpatine's positions, because they are both Force-heavy users. Yes, we have significant evidence of both of them using the saber to a significant degree, but when you throw out powers like Speed and Valor and look at the fundamental ability of their skill with the blade, it's not as good as other practitioners- in fact for both, the lightsaber is a fallback position, while raw Force usage is their ideal weapon of choice. Granted ,the Prequels changed our perspective somewhat, but the majority of sources indicate both were much more at home using the Force against an opponent.

 

The next consideration is knowledge - particularly the common argument I've seen so far of knowing the seven forms. However, this too is only limited in usefulness towards gauging practical ability - theoretical knowledge and use is well and good, but it's also important to remember that we're looking at the practical application of the lightsaber, and that most Force users who know all seven forms still prefer to favour one form in particular. That said, Mace Windu and Luke Skywalker in particular went on to create new variants of existing styles, which is a huge undertaking in itself - reinventing the wheel so to speak indicates a considerable degree of mastery and skill.

 

So far, the names being thrown around in favour at the top of the list seem to revolve around the Prequel/Clone Wars era or shortly after, with a few exceptions. To me, this seems like a bit of a fallacy - when we look at context of the era, the last years of the Old Jedi Order in particular indicated a significant decline in practical application of lightsaber technique - see the Geonosis Arena, for example, and how many Jedi were killed. Now, that said, I'm not dismissing the capabilities of masters like Yoda or Windu, but I think, in terms of historical context, any reference to them being one of the greatest duelists of all time still places them at the lower end of the curve due to the galaxy they grew up in and the relative peace the Republic had enjoyed since Ruusan - in other words, they were the greatest duelists of their time, but their era was also heavily influenced by peace, bureaucracy and stagnancy. The Order wasn't half as militant as they used to be, and that's a vitally important consideration for a list like this.

 

Personally, I'd still place Luke Skywalker at the top of the list. Not only did he master the lightsaber forms, but he also mastered the lightsaber to a phenomenal degree before the New Jedi Order rediscovered the old teachings, and had only rudimentary knowledge of the earlier forms while he himself was learning. Factor in as well that he had very little practical teaching on the lightsaber from either of his primary mentors, and it makes his defeat of Vader and the Reborn Emperor so much more significant. Furthermore, he also taught those skills to a new generation of students successfully, indicating his independant learning was highly fruitful, and so his grasp of practical and theoretical application of lightsaber technique was all the more significant in an era where there was very little information on the subject - remember, the lightsaber forms were only fully rediscovered years after the New Jedi Order was founded. I've also got thoughts on the Styles vs the Forms, but that's another discussion entirely I won't go into.

 

The next two - Yoda and Mace Windu - I think are in the wrong order. I mean, yes, we have quotes indicating Mace considered himself inferior to Yoda, and (i think) something about Yoda actually defeating Mace...but considering the nature of Vapaad, which is inherently weaker against Light Siders and presumably non-Force Sensitives, that's hardly surprising. Still, if you take Vapaad out of the equation, Mace's practical application of the blade is, at least in my opinion, considerably better then Yoda's. His theoretical knowledge of the forms should be considered at least on par with Yoda (which as I stated above shouldn't be as strong an arguing point as it is), but he also completed a form long considered incomplete - for thousands of years in fact, aside from the lost information of Jaric Kaeden's Juyo-kos. This achievement shouldn't be considered less then Yoda's degree of mastery of Ataru - it's just a different channel of skill, creativity and innovation vs the orthodox, which fits both characters well.

 

However, the difference here is that while Yoda uses the lightsaber as a second preference, Windu uses it as his first in terms of dueling - which immediately gives us a strong indication of where both Jedi consider themselves most capable. This could partially be due in part to Yoda's natural need to rely on the Force even while in a lightsaber duel, but that strengthens Windu's position as well - if you take the Force out of the equation per the considerations in the first post, Windu is immediately more competant. For the purposes of this discussion at least, Yoda's reliance on the Force puts him at a disadvantage. Also remember that Windu was still, at least as far as Jedi Masters went, relatively young. As far as physicial limitations due to age go, the Force usually allows Jedi to overcome this, so it's worth noting that Windu may not even have hit his prime yet by the time he died.

 

Anyway, I was goiing to raise a few more points, but I've run out of time. Hopefully this'll give you guys somethign to think about and help with the list a bit. Cheers.

[EpickFaill]

#1 StarKiller

lol:D:D:D:D

[tunewalker]

As a final point, based on my rudimentary knowledge of Darth Caedus. I'd nominate him for #4.

 

Primarily based on that fact that Sidious at the height of his power was defeated by Luke Skywalker far from his prime - albeit with the help of battle meditation - in lightsaber combat. Whereas Caedus fought on par and wounded Skywalker in his prime, despite being the inferior Force user.

 

I'd say it was Caedus' lightsaber skills which allowed him to fight against Luke. And Sidious' lack of that led him to being defeated by a pre-prime Skywalker. Of course Sidious is still a formidable opponent, and I'd nominate him for #5.

 

And just to reinforce Caedus' skills:

 

During the events of the Disciples of Ragnos Crisis, Katarn had already become one of the strongest swordsmen in the New Jedi Order and successfully trained Jaden Korr, arguably the most famous hero during those events. An extraordinary swordsman, Katarn became the New Jedi Order's foremost Battlemaster. His general mastery of the Force was incredible and surpassed all but the strongest Jedi Masters.

 

Darth Caedus schooled Kyle Katarn like Sidious schooled Fisto, Tinn and Kolar - despite micro-managing several over Jedi in the process. Katarn simply didn't stand a chance at all.

 

Essentially what I am looking at here is Sidious was a skilled duelist but has a record of being beaten by 3 people less powerful then him, while Caedus has not been able to beat some one more powerful then him he also hasn't really lost to some one less powerful then him except for Jaina which had all kinds of distractions and an early injury the helped her out things that the people who beat sidious in pure saber combat did not have at all.

[tunewalker]

Bane's Djem So really wasn't that great.

 

A part of me would like to say that Plo Koon has displayed greater Djem So skill than Bane, but no one would believe me.

 

I would

[TalonVII]

??? Bane a better Djem So duelist than Vader? Really? Not a chance. Vader was THE master of Djem So.

 

Sure but you all forget. He couldn't do every single maneuver. Remeber, his ability to actually PREFORM the moves, were limited. Granted when he was anakin before he was encased in the suit, yes Anakin would of smoked bane. After he was in the suit, not a chance.

 

He was mechanical and not fluid by a long shot, plus he had to sit and guard his chest piece putting him at a further disadvantage. No, after he was encased in the suit, he might of mastered Djem-So, but again I point to "rise of lord Vader" he couldn't even do half the maneuvers.

[Beniboybling]

Sure but you all forget. He couldn't do every single maneuver. Remeber, his ability to actually PREFORM the moves, were limited. Granted when he was anakin before he was encased in the suit, yes Anakin would of smoked bane. After he was in the suit, not a chance.

 

He was mechanical and not fluid by a long shot, plus he had to sit and guard his chest piece putting him at a further disadvantage. No, after he was encased in the suit, he might of mastered Djem-So, but again I point to "rise of lord Vader" he couldn't even do half the maneuvers.

Your forgetting that physical ability, age, Force powers and all that jazz are irrelevant. It doesn't matter if Vader couldn't do this that and the other, we are judging lightsaber skill here, not one's physical ability to engage in lightsaber combat. All that matters is Vader's knowledge and understanding of the forms. Like you said, he mastered Djem So.

 

Regardless you've conveniently ignored my argument against Rise of Darth Vader - intially he was clunky and couldn't perform certain moves, but he quickly overcame this weakeness post-Rise of Vader.

[Beniboybling]

*snip*

I'd just like to point out that both Sidious and Yoda resorted to lightsaber combat frequently, for Yoda in particular it was always a first resort and was considered a warrior, not a sorcerer, and in the majority of his engagements in and outside of universe primarily used a lightsaber - and because of that they were both exceptionally skilled lightsaber duelists. Post #272 would be of relevance here.

 

Your correct about theoretical knowledge, but I've developed a method of taking into account both theoretical and practical knowledge. I'd suggest reading post #302 for an in-depth comparison of Luke, Yoda and Windu.

 

Concerning this supposed fallacy. You've just taken a very complex argument here. There are dozens and dozens of variables concerning the skill of the Prequel era and Old Republic era. To give a quick run down. The Old Republic era benefits from the experience of war, but on the other hand the very nature of war is opposed to the Jedi philosophy - and for a reason - war disrupts a Jedi's ability to draw on the Force, effectively weakening them - this occurs during the Ruusan Campaigns. War is also incredibly destructive, battlemasters, swordmasters etc. die in battle and are unable to pass on what they've learned and train the next generation, the First Jedi Purge wiped out the entire Jedi Order altogether. And on top of that holocrons and libraries are destroyed, just imagine how much was lost - on lightsaber combat - during the Sacking of Coruscant.

 

On the other hand the Jedi of the Prequel era thrive in peace time, making them capable of achieving a deeper connection to the Force than would ever be possibly during war time. They also have battlemasters and swordmasters at hand, and their knowledge is built upon without interruption. On top of this the lightsaber forms are always evolving, and the Prequel era Jedi benefit from the most developed and comprehensive of the traditional forms. Yet on the other hand, as you pointed out, the Jedi have no real opponents to test themselves against, which leads to the neglection of dueling centric forms such as Makashi, and in general a lack of battle experience.

 

In the end I would conclude that at least in terms of lightsaber combat, neither era is superior to another, and should be by no means considered so. Instead duelists should be considered by the merits of their own achievements. That said some of the greatest lightsaber duelists and masters of their forms, come from the Prequel era i.e. Dooku, Yoda, Windu, Fisto, Anakin etc.

 

And finally Yoda on multiple occasions has be touted as Windu's superior:

 

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

 

--Taken from Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

 

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

 

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

 

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

 

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

 

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

 

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

[TalonVII]

Your forgetting that physical ability, age, Force powers and all that jazz are irrelevant. It doesn't matter if Vader couldn't do this that and the other, we are judging lightsaber skill here, not one's physical ability to engage in lightsaber combat. All that matters is Vader's knowledge and understanding of the forms. Like you said, he mastered Djem So.

 

Regardless you've conveniently ignored my argument against Rise of Darth Vader - intially he was clunky and couldn't perform certain moves, but he quickly overcame this weakeness post-Rise of Vader.

 

Yes and even then when he did a hybrid, he still couldn't do the flowing Djem So he did in RoTS. I mean come on, look at vader's fighting style in ROTS, then ESB and RoTJ. Two completely different forms. Yes using Djem-so, but in his later years as Vadar, it was not as good as right around the events of order 66. He was crisp and effective in the form he perfected yes, but it was not the same and not in the same league as the form he used up until he was mutliated.

 

Plus again, you forget inherent weaknesses of Vader's form.

 

1. He HAS to guard his chest piece, which limits his Djem-So movements to basically a box around his frame. He can have all the knowledge in the world, but he still can't apply over half the maneuvers he used to be able to. Again, I contest [respectfully ofcourse] that you can have all the knowledge in the world about swordsmanship, but if you can't apply ALL of it, leaves you a flawed swordsman.

 

2. Like I said, he cannot do many of the maneuvers that many forms called for. He might of learned mastery of all, but he couldn't APPLY master. Another reason why Luke eventually beat Vader. As much as he mastered his Verson of Djem-so, Vader was also TRAPPED in that style. He couldn't really change a lot of what he could do. He was not as fluid as say sideous, or Luke or hell BANE[yes I know I keep bringing him up but that's the point]. Sorry swordsmanship cannot JUST be about mastery, has also to do with APPLICATION. Sorry as far as other swordsmen, Vader has knowledge, but he's VERY limited in application on how he can apply it.

[tunewalker]

The hybrid is the application he had both powerful and precise as well as unpredictable, one of the weakness of Djem So was it was very predictable as you could almost garentee lots of Zone 1 attacks, Vader's incorporation of Juyo skills meant this no longer exsisted. So in the end application IS what he excelled at, he used his bodies strengths rather then trying to fight its weaknesses allowing him to do more and fight better then he had ever done before. He is KNOWN to be a better duelist in ESB then he was in RotS he is more refined, more accurate, more unpredictable and able to put more force behind his blows. In application he completely schools his younger self. Edited August 13, 2013 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

Can we move back to the topic at hand, Caedus or Sidious for no.4.

 

I also side with Caedus, he was equalling a much better Luke than Sidious was defeated by.

[tunewalker]

Essentially what I am looking at here is Sidious was a skilled duelist but has a record of being beaten by 3 people less powerful then him, while Caedus has not been able to beat some one more powerful then him he also hasn't really lost to some one less powerful then him except for Jaina which had all kinds of distractions and an early injury the helped her out things that the people who beat sidious in pure saber combat did not have at all.

 

quoting self for reasons I agree with Rayla.

[LadyKulvax]

If there are no objections I think 4.Darth Caedus and naturally 5.Darth Sidious.

 

We should move on to no.6, which I think a few of us have been dreading, this will easily take up the biggest arguments.

[GrimAce]

I'd just like to point out that both Sidious and Yoda resorted to lightsaber combat frequently, for Yoda in particular it was always a first resort and was considered a warrior, not a sorcerer, and in the majority of his engagements in and outside of universe primarily used a lightsaber - and because of that they were both exceptionally skilled lightsaber duelists. Post #272 would be of relevance here.

 

Do you have some sources for this? As far as G-canon is concerned at least, Yoda quite clearly prefers to use the Force, after all.

 

Your correct about theoretical knowledge, but I've developed a method of taking into account both theoretical and practical knowledge. I'd suggest reading post #302 for an in-depth comparison of Luke, Yoda and Windu.

 

With all respect, most of the following posts seemed to be countering that post. Is there any agreement on your points from those posters further on? Otherwise it seems like the analysis only has as much weight as you yourself put on it. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to know if the other main contributers to the thread agree with you.

 

Concerning this supposed fallacy. You've just taken a very complex argument here. There are dozens and dozens of variables concerning the skill of the Prequel era and Old Republic era. To give a quick run down. The Old Republic era benefits from the experience of war, but on the other hand the very nature of war is opposed to the Jedi philosophy - and for a reason - war disrupts a Jedi's ability to draw on the Force, effectively weakening them - this occurs during the Ruusan Campaigns. War is also incredibly destructive, battlemasters, swordmasters etc. die in battle and are unable to pass on what they've learned and train the next generation, the First Jedi Purge wiped out the entire Jedi Order altogether. And on top of that holocrons and libraries are destroyed, just imagine how much was lost - on lightsaber combat - during the Sacking of Coruscant.

 

On the other hand the Jedi of the Prequel era thrive in peace time, making them capable of achieving a deeper connection to the Force than would ever be possibly during war time. They also have battlemasters and swordmasters at hand, and their knowledge is built upon without interruption. On top of this the lightsaber forms are always evolving, and the Prequel era Jedi benefit from the most developed and comprehensive of the traditional forms. Yet on the other hand, as you pointed out, the Jedi have no real opponents to test themselves against, which leads to the neglection of dueling centric forms such as Makashi, and in general a lack of battle experience.

 

In the end I would conclude that at least in terms of lightsaber combat, neither era is superior to another, and should be by no means considered so. Instead duelists should be considered by the merits of their own achievements. That said some of the greatest lightsaber duelists and masters of their forms, come from the Prequel era i.e. Dooku, Yoda, Windu, Fisto, Anakin etc.

 

Well, that said, the effectiveness of the Dark Side on the Jedi is...well it only applies in certain instances. This may be due in part to the fact that a lot of EU was written before the Prequels, but the Dark Side having that sort of latent suppression is very inconsistent, and at least as far as G-canon goes to override it, we're not really given a clear answer as to whether the Dark Side suppression is a repeating thing or an isolated incident during the Clone Wars. So connecting war = weak Jedi is, at least from my perspective, a fairly flimsy and inconsistent point that shouldn't be given too much weight. There's also an argument to be made that the Dark Side only influenced the greater Force and the foresight and precognition of the Order, as at least going by the movies the Jedi hardly seem crippled while fighting and using the Living Force, but that's never made clear (at least as far as I know). Still, it's worth considering, because the evidence seems somewhat contrary to the statement made in some circumstances.

 

Historical context is, however, hugely important. As you pointed out yourself, the Jedi neglected several lightsaber forms, and defensive forms like Soresu and Niman became much more mainstream. However, other forms became neglected - so the theory behind those forms still existed, but to say that the Jedi of that era enjoyed unparalleled mastery of all forms based on the prior knowledge of their forebears is erroneous - as certain forms fell into disuse, so to does the degree of mastery of those forms. Knowledge is not a linear improvement, especially when said knowledge is concerning practical application of something like a lightsaber form. I would argue that the stagnation of knowledge on forms such as Makashi is what helped lead them to be so effective against Jedi of the era, but that's another argument, and admittedly based on speculation, so I won't go into that right now.

 

Ultimately I think that the era a Jedi is in makes a world of difference as to what they learn and how well they learn it. In the time of the Prequels at least, lightsaber mastery was, in my opinion, in a period of heavy decline.

 

And finally Yoda on multiple occasions has be touted as Windu's superior:

 

To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

 

--Taken from Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat

 

Speculative, and not referencing anyone in particular, so the statement is fairly weak at the base level.

 

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

 

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

 

Broad, epic prose like this shouldn't really be considered 100% factual IMO.

 

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

 

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

 

This only really holds weight if we assume Yoda and Windu only ever fought once, which seems highly unlikely. Also, I think sourcebooks are considered a lower form of EU canon as they deal with gameplay mechanics. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

 

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

 

I think the important thing to note here is that it is written from Windu's own perspective, rather then an unbiased third party or anything of the sort. So it's difficult to take this as completel factual, as it's coloured by opinion and perhaps respect, amongst other things. Context is important, imho.

 

The great thing about Ataru in particular is we have two really solid references to how a standard practitioner utilizes it in the form of Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Phantom Menace, which gives us a great comparative point between how an average Jedi uses it compared to Yoda's Force augmented flurries. In this way we get a really clear indication of just how reliant on the Force Yoda really is when it comes to lightsaber combat, and that's a really important thing to look at with an argument like this - Ataru's probably the only real form where we have a clear vision of the fundamentals.

 

EDIT: Apoogies for dragging up the argument again. I've had this damn window up for hours >.>

Edited August 13, 2013 by GrimAce