orsattithebody Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 (edited) Hey Everyone! I have a few lvl 50+ toons, but I never made a Warrior before. I've made a Jedi Knight and hated it, just got very bored with storyline, combat, and companions fast. So I want to make a Warrior because I heard they're a lot more fun and brutal to play with. I've read a lot in the forums about people asking for help with their Tank Juggernaut, but never a DPS Juggernaut. So I want to know, what are the Pros and Cons to playing with a DPS Juggernaut. I have a lvl 55 Tank Assassin and I find myself rarely dying, always pulling aggro the most, and staying alive the most in a fight, so I know I'm good with being a Tank. The reason I'm asking about this (DPS Jugg) is because I like standing out from the rest and I have yet to see a DPS Jugg. I also like the ability to wear heavy armor and I know Juggs wont put out as much DPS burst or damage as a Mara, and that's ok with me because they will survive longer. So what are the Pros and Cons to playing this style in PVE as well as PVP. Thanks guys, hope someone can help Edited July 22, 2013 by orsattithebody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssfish Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Good Jugg DPS will put out better burst than an Anni Marauder, especially when paired with a Marauder in a group, and depending on the fight, will come close to equaling Anni for sustained. A well played Carnage marauder is second only to a well played sniper, but Carnage is also one of the toughest specs to play optimally. We will never (with current class designs) come close to touching a good Carnage Marauder. There are plenty of DPS Juggs around, and the Jugg forums are full of DPS threads and conversation. As far as pros in PvE: You get taunt, which is great to have for a number of fights. Saber Reflect is a stupid good ability. You can target swap effectively. You have some decent mobility tools is group situations. In Vengeance, you have a number of toys that really help you survive. In Rage, you have an extremely simple rotation. PvE cons: Without some kind of target to use as an anchor, your mobility is horrible (Titan 6 huge grenade). In Rage, you are farily squishy (not PT DPS bad, but still pretty bad). In Vengeance, you have to know the fight mechanics almost inside and out to maintain effective DPS on a number of fights, more so than any other class I've played. You have to work much harder to put yourself on par with other classes. It plays identical to the Guardian, just with different animations and skill names, so if you got bored of the combat there, you won't find much difference here. Story/Companions are matter of taste, so I won't compare the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orsattithebody Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 (edited) Wow ok, so a good jugg dps will put out better burst than an Anni Mara?? I've heard the opposite, like Anni Mara's are the best. I don't really care if the jugg dps spec isn't too mobile, I just want to survive long in fights like PVP or PVE Fps and Ops. With my Sniper, I put out an amazing amount of damage, so I think I'm a good player in dps. I'm almost time to choose my AV class which I know will be Jugg, but I just don't know what spec. Vengeance seems like it puts out the most dps as far as what you're telling me, but it's harder. So how is it harder? I might go with that spec and datacron hunt all day and get matrix cubes to help me lol Edited July 22, 2013 by orsattithebody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssfish Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Top-tier Anni marauders should outdo Vengeance, unless the Jugg gets some crazy RNG love w.r.t crits/procs. But as far as burst goes, we're talking Ravage > Impale > V.Throw > Scream > Ravage in an ideal world. Timed with Bloodthirst, relic, and adrenal, you're looking at numbers like Ravage : 4k 4k 9k (2.5 2.5 5.5) 17k / 10.5k (crit/non) - 3 seconds Impale : 7k (4.5k) 24k / 15k - 4.5 seconds V.Throw : 8k (5k) 32k / 20k - 6 seconds Scream: 6k (6k) 38k / 26k - 7.5 seconds Ravage : 4k 4k 9k (2.5 2.5 5.5) 55k / 36.5k 10.5 seconds Obviously getting crits on all abilities is not likely, and I guesstimated numbers based on some of my own logs, but even with zero crits, this combination (again, with BT/Relic/Adrenal) is pumping nearly 3.5k DPS. If we assume 30% crit through that phase,over 4k DPS. *This is not an ideal rotation, and is not sustainable. It also requires a bit of luck and preparation to build this exact scenario. And actually, you should probably substitute Shatter in for V.Throw and put it in front of Impale (if the boss is above 30%), but I don't want to rework the numbers. Sub-30, you can expect to add another V.Throw in after either Ravage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orsattithebody Posted July 23, 2013 Author Share Posted July 23, 2013 Hmm ok, a lot of number work lol. So it came down to choose a spec, and I chose Rage mostly because everyone on the fleet swears by it and the guildies were telling me to go towards that in the beginning but to go vengeance a bit later on. So I guess I should ask, what spec is better for PVP, and which one is better for PVE. I dont really care about the difficulty of playing a spec because I know I can better myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssfish Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 For PvE, it would be worthwhile to gain proficiency with both specs. There are some fights where one is better than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGSThomas Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) As a Jugg player since beta this is what I've noticed. Pros: - Relatively easy rotation/priority system. - Heavy armor makes us not a 2 shot kill if the boss turns. - Sundering assault gives the boss an armor debuff so we bring utility - Lots of burst in PvP - Very good defensive cooldowns. - Huttball MVP with Charge > Push > Charge > Intercede Cons: - Jugg DPS is not as good (around 2 or 3%) as an equally geared and skilled Marauder or Sorc. Its just where the class is right now. - Resource problems until you get 2 piece PvE. - 0 offensive cooldowns (Unless you consider enrage as one). - Is easily kited in PvP. - Relatively annoying to gear. First We are the only ones that use Heavy Strength so it doesn't drop much, second in Raids the gear that drops doesn't have the optimal mods and enhancements. So really we are forced to get extra pcs to min/max. I think this might be every class though. - Unless your guild tanks are really good, you will be asked to Tank. Which requires 2 sets of gear. Augmenting 2 sets of gear is F'in expensive. Edited July 23, 2013 by AGSThomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazerxxx Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 ... Cons: ... - Relatively annoying to gear. First We are the only ones that use Heavy Strength so it doesn't drop much, second in Raids the gear that drops doesn't have the optimal mods and enhancements. So really we are forced to get extra pcs to min/max. I think this might be every class though. ... Wutt, easiest to gear, cuz u have 3 different Gearsets to choose from with a token(2 Marodeurs and 1 DPS Jugg Set). Who cares about heavy or medium? You just ripp everything out and put it in heavy or adaptive gear, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennethdale Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Wutt, easiest to gear, cuz u have 3 different Gearsets to choose from with a token(2 Marodeurs and 1 DPS Jugg Set). Who cares about heavy or medium? You just ripp everything out and put it in heavy or adaptive gear, Thats what I did. Saved old gear from my Mara and just popped it into Gree armor, mailed it over and *bam* geared. My personal opinion of Mara vs Jugg comes down to fight utility; The only real utlity a Jugg DPS brings is the ability to taunt the boss and soak damage if sh*t hits the fan (armor debuff can be applied by mercs too), and truth be told thats not really something that you want to bring a DPS for. Sure, in progression raiding its a fantastic thing to have but a Mara brings a consistent small aoe group HoT (Anni), increased raid mobility (Carn), one of the highest DPS ceilings in the game, and a group-only 15% boost to damage and healing. As was stated previously, if you have an AMAZING Carnage Marauder their burst is just insane (I'll admit thats not me) but Anni is fairly straightforward to play and play well so on most fights if you can learn how to keep up Annihilator (for example, on Operator, ensuring that you always get 1 Annihilate in on Core before it blows and one on an adds in the middle you can keep the buff up most of the fights except for channeling) it becomes a lot more competitive. Vengeance gets complicated when you factor in keeping track of the ICD of Ravage and the RNG factor since, at least to me, it starts to feel more proc-y than Carnage. What I mean is that due to the rate at which you strike a mob in Carnage you are pretty much guaranteed to get your Execute and Slaughter procs for your Gore window. It happens that you get RNG-screwed, sure, but its rare, whereas I have had Ravage CD naturally many, many times. As for a purely Rage vs Rage debate, I'll always fall on the Jugg side of things. My Mara just doesn't have the uptime of Shockwave that my Jugg does because of the low CD on Enrage (which also isn't tied to a buff that, in PvP, might be lost if you die at an inopportune moment). Add to that the fact that Juggs get a boost to Strength that Maras do not and the gap between the two widens. The biggest smash crit I've seen on my Jugg was about 9.4k and on my Mara about 8.7 (mind you, I rarely ever play Rage on my Mara in PvE). If someone held a gun to my head and told me I had to pick either my Jugg (purely for DPS) or my Mara, I'd probably end up picking the Mara just because it has a lot more versatility (again, in terms of DPS). The playstyles of Annihilation VS Carnage VS Rage are so immensely different that its hard to believe they are all the same AC. Then again, comparing it to something like Sorc DPS where Lightning vs Madness is your choice you are still applying DoTs in both specs rotated between cast-time abilities trying to get procs to get intant casts. The fundamentals are the same even if the playstyle is a bit different (obviously, the instants in Madness make it a more mobile spec but in both cases keeping a high uptime on DoTs and using instant cast procs efficiently is the key). Compared to that even Jugg Vengeance VS Jugg Rage is versatile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orsattithebody Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 Alright, thanks guys for your help! I'm going Rage for a bit because I like what you start off at it with and in PVP it seems to be going pretty good so far. In one fight I came to the middle of the leaderboard with over 10 kills...so I guess thats good? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssfish Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) Vengeance gets complicated when you factor in keeping track of the ICD of Ravage and the RNG factor since, at least to me, it starts to feel more proc-y than Carnage. What I mean is that due to the rate at which you strike a mob in Carnage you are pretty much guaranteed to get your Execute and Slaughter procs for your Gore window. It happens that you get RNG-screwed, sure, but its rare, whereas I have had Ravage CD naturally many, many times. The Internal on Rampage (Ravage proc) is pretty simple, and there's really not much to keeping track of it. If it procs off Impale, then it can proc again when Impale comes off cooldown. If it procs off Shatter, it can proc again when Shatter cooldown is =< 3 seconds (It's even easier if you follow Shatter with Impale, then you use Impale's CD to keep track). V.Throw will proc every 20 seconds if you keep your bleeds up, 24 seconds at the outside, and besides, with it's 15 second timer, you don't have to watch it or track it too close: when it procs, simply find some place to slip it in. Rampage procs fail, without a doubt, but in the fights where we can take full advantage of Rampage, we're taking enough damage that we can afford to use heavier hitting abilities in those occurrences, thus making it less painful (in regards to DPS) in a raid scenario than when parsing on a dummy. Edited July 25, 2013 by ssfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennethdale Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 The Internal on Rampage (Ravage proc) is pretty simple, and there's really not much to keeping track of it. If it procs off Impale, then it can proc again when Impale comes off cooldown. If it procs off Shatter, it can proc again when Shatter cooldown is =< 3 seconds (It's even easier if you follow Shatter with Impale, then you use Impale's CD to keep track). V.Throw will proc every 20 seconds if you keep your bleeds up, 24 seconds at the outside, and besides, with it's 15 second timer, you don't have to watch it or track it too close: when it procs, simply find some place to slip it in. Rampage procs fail, without a doubt, but in the fights where we can take full advantage of Rampage, we're taking enough damage that we can afford to use heavier hitting abilities in those occurrences, thus making it less painful (in regards to DPS) in a raid scenario than when parsing on a dummy. Thaaaaat makes things a whole hell of a lot simpler. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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