So what are the problems with Marauders/Sentinels?

[oofalong]

Let's review the current state of our beloved class:

 

Two viable top tier DPS specs for PvE - Annihilation/Watchman and Carnage/Combat

 

Two viable top tier DPS specs for PvP - Carnage/Combat and Rage/Focus

 

In 2.0 there were some changes to each spec. Still, we remain the top melee DPS class out there, and our defensive CDs are among the best in the game.

 

We aren't too bad, right?

[Crawelc]

Combat was win/lose with 2.0 and watchman still needs burst. The thing that grinds my gears the most is that they had to change up Combat spec because it was "too repetitive", but Focus is left alone? How about add a little skill requirement to that spec.

[recsa]

I was about to start something like this because my experience from last night on SV NiM.

 

Right now our DPS on "perfect conditions" is on par (maybe slightly ahead) of Troopers and greatly below Gunsligers, but in operations we are clearly below all of them because 90% of the NiM boss mechanichs penalize melee combat.

 

The way BW has designed the encounters to make them more difficult is just to make melee life a hell on earth, every boss, every trash, everything has a push, a knockback an small radius stun, AoE dmg we have to move to avoid, .... etc while ranged can just stay at range and DPS out of their heart content, also in NiM packs of adds are not just an annoyance, are something you need to kill ASAP or wipe is sure, so AoE dmg classes are needed, again Commando and Guns ....

 

My guild's raid composition was to usually be 2 melee and 2 ranged, yesterday we had again to swap 1 melee for another ranged (3 ranged 1 melee), maybe we could have downed first bosses in SV NiM with 2 melee, but whats the point on trying the hard way when you can just add another gunslinger and make it easy mode??

 

IMHO, our biggest problem as class (PVE wise) is encounters design, in the past we had a DPS advantage to make for it, now we dont so we are screwed, at least im seriously thinking on using my Gunslinger from now on.

Edited July 11, 2013 by recsa

[oofalong]

I was about to start something like this because my experience from last night on SV NiM.

 

Right now our DPS on "perfect conditions" is on par (maybe slightly ahead) of Troopers and greatly below Gunsligers, but in operations we are clearly below all of them because 90% of the NiM boss mechanichs penalize melee combat.

 

The way BW has designed the encounters to make them more difficult is just to make melee life a hell on earth, every boss, every trash, everything has a push, a knockback an small radius stun, AoE dmg we have to move to avoid, .... etc while ranged can just stay at range and DPS out of their heart content, also in NiM packs of adds are not just an annoyance, are something you need to kill ASAP or wipe is sure, so AoE dmg classes are needed, again Commando and Guns ....

 

My guild's raid composition was to usually be 2 melee and 2 ranged, yesterday we had again to swap 1 melee for another ranged (3 ranged 1 melee), maybe we could have downed first bosses in SV NiM with 2 melee, but whats the point on trying the hard way when you can just add another gunslinger and make it easy mode??

 

IMHO, our biggest problem as class (PVE wise) is encounters design, in the past we had a DPS advantage to make for it, now we dont so we are screwed, at least im seriously thinking on using my Gunslinger from now on.

 

I have not seen enough of the mechanics of NiM S&V yet, but generally I agree that the trends of the two current NiM Operations have made it more difficult for Marauders/Sentinels. Still, among the melee classes Marauders are still first or maybe second to Operatives/Scoundrels. And, we still have the ever-important Bloodthirst/Inspiration.

 

Again, speaking in generalities, it used to be bringing more Marauders/Sentinels meant "easy mode". Now, the trend may be stacking additional Snipers/Gunslingers, but none of the content that I have seen so far is undo-able with Marauders/Sentinels even though it is more difficult.

[recsa]

yep none is undoable, its just that it is easier with ranged, more with gunslingers/snipers. Right now Inspiration/Bloodthirst doesnt make for a gunslinger's DPS nor his utility (AoE adds, screen, push inmunity, ...)

 

My point is, while still best melee class, we have lost the DPS advantage that made us being a valuable assest in any raid, right now theres no argument for going 2 melee and 2 ranged against 4 ranged

[vdbswong]

I wouldn't mind some sound effects for some of the buffs/procs (similar to how Guardians get the yell when they get a Ravage reset).

[Luckeyduckey]

Fix combat. Reduce Blade Rush's cost to 2 focus, and increase the chance that Opportune Strike procs from Ataru. Maybe make it 50% chance to proc, instead of 30. Give Watchman some burst! Increase the duration of the stacks of Merciless, so that if we get CC'd, we won't have to rebuild those stacks. Give Blade Storm a home in Watchman, or increase Slash damage. Tie a crit damage buff for Merciless Slash and Slash to Searing Saber. "Increases the critical damage dealt of Merciless Slash, Slash, and your burning effects by 15%/30%."

 

I would also say, increase the self healing for watchman, and allow it's bleeds to reduce healing dealt to other targets by 40% (So different from the normal healing debuff) Also, something I would like to see, is having Force Stasis increase the damage of burns by 100% while active. I know a lot of people who apply their DoTs then stasis the target.

 

My 2cents.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Luckeyduckey

[JediMasterSLC]

Fix combat. Reduce Blade Storm's cost to 2 focus, and increase the chance that Opportune Strike procs from Ataru. Maybe make it 50% chance to proc, instead of 30. Give Watchman some burst! Increase the duration of the stacks of Merciless, so that if we get CC'd, we won't have to rebuild those stacks. Give Blade Storm a home in Watchman, or increase Slash damage. Tie a crit damage buff for Merciless Slash and Slash to Searing Saber. "Increases the critical damage dealt of Merciless Slash, Slash, and your burning effects by 15%/30%."

 

I would also say, increase the self healing for watchman, and allow it's bleeds to reduce healing dealt to other targets by 40% (So different from the normal healing debuff) Also, something I would like to see, is having Force Stasis increase the damage of burns by 100% while active. I know a lot of people who apply their DoTs then stasis the target.

 

My 2cents.

 

Blade storm does cost 2 focus in combat spec......

 

As far as the proposed changes, remember that PvE balance has to be considered too, so you can't increase the spec's raw damage output by that much.

 

A 40% heal debuff would be a little over the top, and the same goes for Stasis increasing burn damage by that much. Good ideas though.

[Luckeyduckey]

Blade storm does cost 2 focus in combat spec......

 

As far as the proposed changes, remember that PvE balance has to be considered too, so you can't increase the spec's raw damage output by that much.

 

A 40% heal debuff would be a little over the top, and the same goes for Stasis increasing burn damage by that much. Good ideas though.

 

Whoops. Changed. I meant Blade Rush. Again, that might be over-the-top too. I want Merciless/Annihilate to either be a massive hard hitting ability, or be used all the time, but in PvP, that's almost impossible. What I think, is that increasing the duration of Merciless stacks would not affect PvE, since they can always maintain their stacks, and allow them to compete on boss fights where there are phases. It would allow the class to use a powerful ability often, and substantially increase the DPS.

 

I still think Slash should be buffed to synergize with Watchman. Maybe a 2 point talent (replacing Force Fade/Phantom) to increase crit chance of Merciless/Annihilate and Slash/Vicious Slash by 7.5%/15%. That would give Merciless/Annihilate some more burst, and allow Slash to be more beneficial to the tree. The only problem with that is, if mixed with Brutality, the spec would have a passive 30% crit on Slash. Perhaps Brutality could increase the crit chance of Zealous Leap/Obliterate instead of Slash/Vicious Slash.

[tman_ac]

For now I think all specs have their pros and cons. Still it is sad that you can't use all specs entirely good in PvE and PvP. Watchman/Annihilation is still not viable in PvP while Focus isn't the best choice in PvE.

 

I mainly play watchman in PvE cause that spec is the most fun for me and I only switch to combat on fights where it is impossible to keep your stacks on merciless, like on Titan 6.

 

Speaking about watchman, I really think the timer on Merciless should be extended cause our sustained dps gets a huge loss when you can't keep your stacks. I am not talking about making it to easy to keep the stacks, but you should be able to keep your stacks on all boss encounters if you are one of the best sentinels out there.

 

Already suggested that pre 2.0 in the PTS forums, but oh well - Devs never listen.

 

Have as well some more ideas for the other specs, but I will go more into detail later on when this representative thing starts rolling.

[vdbswong]

Just remembered a new issue:

 

My Volatile Conqueror's Lightsaber (and one with a similar hilt) has the Off-hand hilt pointing in the wrong direction.

 

>.>

[KeyboardNinja]

(terms not mirrored because I'm lazy. Focus = Rage; Centering = Fury; Watchman = Annihilation; Combat = Carnage; Inspiration = Bloodthirst; Transcendence = Predation; Singularity = Shockwave; Zealous Leap = Obliterate)

 

The primary point which I feel does need to be addressed: Focus in PvE. Right now, it is almost never played in a raid setting. Most of the people I see playing it only spec to Focus situationally (e.g. for Dash'roode). I only know one high-level sentinel who plays it as their main spec on all bosses. This immediately raises a number of concerns, since it is unclear if Bioware has any significant volume of data for Focus in PvE.

 

I'm more interested though in balance intent. Focus tends to dummy parse a fair bit behind the other specs. By "a fair bit" I mean about 6% behind Watchman and Combat. It picks up an enormous amount of DPS on fights with significant raid damage though (e.g. 3.1k *single target* DPS on Nightmare DG first phase), though so do the other sentinel specs. The real question is this: is Focus *intended* to be competitive with the other two specs in terms of single target damage? If so, then why does it consistently dummy parse so far behind the other two? Related: if it *is* intended to be competitive in terms of overall DPS, how is that balanced? Combat and Watchman are extremely gimpy in the AoE department, as well as in the area of on-demand burst. Focus triumphs in both areas; is lower single-target DPS the balance check here?

 

On the subject of Focus… Focus spec is currently hampered in a way that no other DPS spec in the game is: specifically, it cannot benefit from the Inspiration buff. Inspiration (and Transcendence) prevent Centering from being built for their duration, which completely neuters Focus's sustainable damage output by both starving them of focus and preventing them from building Singularity. Significant testing has demonstrated that even receiving the Inspiration buff represents a loss of about 200-250 DPS over that 30-45 second interval. The Focus sentinel I run with responds to this by actually clicking Inspiration off their bar when another sentinel in the raid has provided the buff. Is this part of the intended design? If so, why? I would propose that neither Inspiration nor Transcendence should prevent the accumulation of Centering. At the very least, when such a buff is received from *another* sentinel, Centering building should be unaffected.

 

Another Focus point that also affects several other DPS specs: when for the love of god will the Operator IX datacore AoE bug get fixed?!

 

Another issue that plagues both Focus and Watchman is the fact that Zealous Leap (and to a lesser extent, Force Leap) have a tendency to land the player in a somewhat non-deterministic location. For bosses with positional mechanics (which is most of them), this is nearly game-breaking. On Nightmare Vorgath in EC for example, it was nearly impossible to play Focus since Zealous Leap had the potential to land outside the green square, but more likely just inside the knockback cone. Depending on strategy (against the wall or behind the droid), this could also be a problem for Watchman and Force Leap. Combat was the only "safe" spec for that fight. In Styrak, Zealous Leap frequently lands the player inside spit during the first phase. In the Dread Guard, Zealous Leap (and to a lesser extend, Force Leap) carry a very real risk of dropping the player inside a green (or even worse, red) circle if the boss was positioned too near. Basically, this ability causes serious mechanical issues on numerous bosses, simply due to a randomized factor in the animation. Is Bioware aware of this problem? Do they intend to ever fix it?

 

Combat is a spec almost entirely driven by RNG and procs that are conditional on other procs that in turn proc other abilities. This adds an element of skill to the spec by requiring players to pay significant attention. However, it also means that sustained damage output can and does fluctuate enormously due to factors entirely outside the player's control. In the end, a good Combat player can achieve viable numbers regardless of RNG, but the difference between "viable" and "competitive" comes down to the flip of a coin, rather than player skill. Is this the intended design for the spec? Is there any hope of providing some mechanism for ameliorating the impact of RNG on the sustained output?

 

Random observation: the Arkanian set bonuses for Sentinels are probably the best set bonuses in the game and provide a nearly equal buff for all specs. Well done. :-)

Edited July 16, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[skomerko]

Ah, i wish they rework merciless slash for watchman. currently its very easy to drop it.(titan 6 ie). maybe losing one stack after 15 sec?

[Dawginole]

I was about to start something like this because my experience from last night on SV NiM.

 

Right now our DPS on "perfect conditions" is on par (maybe slightly ahead) of Troopers and greatly below Gunsligers, but in operations we are clearly below all of them because 90% of the NiM boss mechanichs penalize melee combat.

 

The way BW has designed the encounters to make them more difficult is just to make melee life a hell on earth, every boss, every trash, everything has a push, a knockback an small radius stun, AoE dmg we have to move to avoid, .... etc while ranged can just stay at range and DPS out of their heart content, also in NiM packs of adds are not just an annoyance, are something you need to kill ASAP or wipe is sure, so AoE dmg classes are needed, again Commando and Guns ....

 

My guild's raid composition was to usually be 2 melee and 2 ranged, yesterday we had again to swap 1 melee for another ranged (3 ranged 1 melee), maybe we could have downed first bosses in SV NiM with 2 melee, but whats the point on trying the hard way when you can just add another gunslinger and make it easy mode??

 

IMHO, our biggest problem as class (PVE wise) is encounters design, in the past we had a DPS advantage to make for it, now we dont so we are screwed, at least im seriously thinking on using my Gunslinger from now on.

 

This post is pretty dead on for 90% of the OP content. I see Gunslingers pulling ahead by 50k-100k in these fights. But when we get to something like the last boss in TfB where the Slingers are having to worry about the same mechanics I am I am out damaging them by as much as 400k. I know that sounds ridiculous but I have the screenies to prove it.

 

Now aside from trash where Slingers can lay down a lot of AOE and I expect to be outparsed, what that tells me is that Sentinel dps is significantly, drastically better than anything else in the game, but BW is using mechanics and traps that only apply to melee to pull us back in line.

 

I see the same issues in WZ's where I'm constantly batted around and can't even get through a "rotation" much of the time because of the knock backs or trying to avoid kiting which is a whole other annoyance considering that if a target is outside of our frontal cone we can't attack but ranged can kite with about a 300degree cone of attack.

 

My simple solution to this, which they will likely ignore, is to give Force Leap a random proc like they did for Dispatch and Precision Slash. The proc should not deter from the normal GCD. It should just be a bonus leap to make up for the frustration of every damn mob having a push back now.

 

Good post, Recsa.

[tman_ac]

I would propose that neither Inspiration nor Transcendence should prevent the accumulation of Centering. At the very least, when such a buff is received from *another* sentinel, Centering building should be unaffected.

 

This is something that really needs to get addressed. It never made sense to me. Especially if you receive the buff from another sentinel. I think it's just poor design or something they overlooked.