Are Shadows Inferior All Around?

[Lynnx]

I've read in several posts that shadows do the lowest dps. This is pretty sad considering range classes do more damage.

 

I've also read that they are inferior to other classes in tanking as well.

 

I'm getting the impression that their main strength is either that they can stealth and get past enemies, or that there is hope that they will become better in a later update.

 

Are shadows good in any way at the present time?

[Helig]

The only trouble they have tanking is a couple of NiM encounters, because their passive/semi-passive mitigation is so damn inconsistent.

 

As far as DPS goes, not too bad, but not top-tier either. No reason to get a DPS Shadow over a Marauder.

 

For PvP, it's really telling that most 1v1 tournaments are won by Shadows and Sins. Very, very strong class, if played right. Kinetic is a great utility tank, the best node guard. Infil is a great solo node-capper and healer-killer, thanks to very heavy spike damage and tight single target control.

 

Bottomine - not a bad class - just slightly underperforming in PvE atm. But balance is always shifting in MMOs, so if you really like the class, it's not as bad as forcing players to abandon it.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Helig

[EFSoupy]

I really don't PvP much anymore, so I can't say much in that regard. As for PvE, inferior and unusable are different. In end game content, they do alright but there are better.

For shadow tanks, damage tends to come in large spikes so healers need to be attentive to the tank's health. There are some issues in NiM with such heavy damage spikes that it requires the healer to perform near perfectly to keep the tank alive and there is a lot less room for error in general with a shadow.

When compared to a guardian or vanguard, there aren't the same tight tolerances for healer performance. I've spent a lot of time lately healing with the current state of shadows and I really kinda hate the guardian gameplay, but from what I've experienced in healing, there just has to be more healer attention given to a shadow tank to account for the short reaction time allowed with shadows, guardians and vanguards don't require the same attention.

As for dps, shadows are coming in lower on parsers than other dps classes. That's not to say that you can't clear content with them, but they aren't putting out the same numbers. And there are little utility things you get with a shadow, but at the end of the day, dps is there to kill things.

[IdioitSeven]

As for dps, shadows are coming in lower on parsers than other dps classes.

 

This is one of the reasons I dislike using the dummy parses as a way to judge whether or not a DPS class is good or not. I'm not saying they're wrong but you must take into account the internal finishers that both shadow DPS specs receive. I know for a fact that the Balance spec receives a significant damage buff to their dots and FiB after 30% (I'm not sure what infiltration gets because I never play that spec but I'm pretty certain they get a special finisher too).

 

And this definitely makes a difference. During a T-Courtyard a couple weeks ago a telekinetics sage and myself (in my Balance off spec) were locked on the boss the whole time. He was better geared overall but had a 63 hilt while I had a 66 hilt. The entire fight he was ahead of me in DPS by at least 60 points (its been awhile it may have been more) until 30%. After that I shot up and ended up beating him in DPS.

 

BTW he was in main spec with several 72 mods, armorings and enhancements while I had what ever I could scrounge up during FPs and dailys plus the old DG set bonus armorings (which actually was a pretty well built off spec). And don't ask for the parse, I would never be able to find it.

Edited July 7, 2013 by IdioitSeven

[IInox]

as infitlration shadow i dont have any problem with my dps on progress. so..play what you like.

[Kitru]

This is one of the reasons I dislike using the dummy parses as a way to judge whether or not a DPS class is good or not.

 

He's not referencing dummy parses. He's referencing whole fight parses. Not *every* parse that people bring up is a dummy parse. People *do* recognize some of the flaws of those. However, the actual top end single target *combat* parses do not, and, in *those*, Shadows are *definitely* sub-par.

 

I'm not saying they're wrong but you must take into account the internal finishers that both shadow DPS specs receive.

 

Actually, it's not all that hard to account for those even if you're just using a dummy parse. All of the execute advantages can be included with *very* simple algebraic modifications: the 30% increased damage with certain effects (what Balance gets for their DoTs) is just a 9% total increase to the contributed DPS of those abilities (30% more for 30% of total hp = 9%); Spinning Strike can be calculated by looking at the comparative use ratio and determining how many Double Strikes Spinning Strike offsets (generally one out of every 2 thanks to its CD), determining what the comparative damage multiplier is (iirc, about 75% more damage than Balance's DS or a CS), and then multiplying through the fact that it's only available for 30% of the fight (30% of total hp * 50% comparative use * 75% more damage = 11.25% higher functional multiplier on Double Strike).

 

You can actually get a pretty damned accurate assessment of DPS accounting for those variables with a dummy parse if you're willing to do 5 minutes of math.

 

The entire fight he was ahead of me in DPS by at least 60 points (its been awhile it may have been more) until 30%.

 

At only 60 DPS ahead of you, you were dealing with a *terrible* Sage DPS. Pre-30%, you're talking about dummy parse damage, and a Sage DPS should have been pulling well in excess of 250-300 DPS higher than you. If the Sage was *only* 60 DPS higher, that's not someone you can really use as an accurate gauge of comparative performance.

 

Just listed mods isn't all that important. It's entirely likely that the Sage you were referring to itemized horribly. If they were packing a 66 hilt but some 72 mods, you're pretty much saying "commendation gear", which *is* itemized horribly. It's entirely possible that, even if that Sage knew how to *play* their class, they had no idea how to actually *gear* their class.

[Atramar]

wouldn't call them Inferior... pvp is about initial burst phase, and we'r good there. It can be troublesome on longer fights, but hey, nobody is perfect.

but yeah, I've retired my assassin from pve long time ago. but you don't see many operative dps on operations either, but on pvp they rock hard.

[IdioitSeven]

He's not referencing dummy parses. He's referencing whole fight parses.

 

Sorry, guess I got a lil tunnel vision there

 

Actually, it's not all that hard to account for those even if you're just using a dummy parse.

You can actually get a pretty damned accurate assessment of DPS accounting for those variables with a dummy parse if you're willing to do 5 minutes of math.

 

Urrg... Math. I definitely see where you are coming from though but it would probably take awhile for me to figure out. Haven't even started 2nd year of HS yet

 

At only 60 DPS ahead of you, you were dealing with a *terrible* Sage DPS. Pre-30%, you're talking about dummy parse damage, and a Sage DPS should have been pulling well in excess of 250-300 DPS higher than you.

 

Perhaps I should have clarified a little more. As I said he was at least 60 points ahead, but really most of the time he was well ahead. It was only with the help of adrenals and clicky relics that I was able to momentarily close the gap. Plus during a T Courtyard it's not going to be exactly like a dummy parse since during the giant laser phase gives the boss immunity from all attacks for a few seconds, so that 250-300 DPS that he should of had up on me would have been lowered by a bit (unless you already accounted for that and I'm just making this post longer for no reason)

 

Anyway sorry if I was completely wrong, was just trying to point out one of the cool perks that shadow DPS have.

Edited July 8, 2013 by IdioitSeven

[mmerry]

If you want to look at a "Target Dummy Raid Boss" look at the Thrasher HM statistics page on Torparse. If you aren't assigned add duty you maintain 100% uptime on Thrasher. If you get targeted by the firebug guy you can just move to the left or right of the boss to drop the fire pool and still hit it the whole time.

 

For shadows only 1 person (Aranelde and Wild-berry are the same person) is hitting over 2800 dps.

Thrasher Shadow Stats

 

For Assassins only 1 person is hitting over 2700.

Thrasher Assassin Stats

 

Im not sure why more Shadow/Sins arent hitting higher numbers, but I do know its possible to pull respectable numbers as a shadow.

Edited July 8, 2013 by mmerry

[Kitru]

Im not sure why more Shadow/Sins arent hitting higher numbers, but I do know its possible to pull respectable numbers as a shadow.

 

I'm always kind of suspect of the top listed DPS. There's a Guardian listed as doing over 3.5k DPS on Thrasher (and I checked; it's *all* ST; check it). When looking at top tier DPS, it's better to look at what the median/mean of the top ~20-50 is since it excludes possible rare wonkiness that might happen with the parser (stuff bugs sometimes) or the rare, but possible, incredible strings of luck that are bound to occur.

[Sarenne]

Are Shadows Inferior All Around?

 

For PVE yes - tanks have survival issues and DPS is significantly sub-par.

[mmerry]

I'm always kind of suspect of the top listed DPS. There's a Guardian listed as doing over 3.5k DPS on Thrasher (and I checked; it's *all* ST; check it). When looking at top tier DPS, it's better to look at what the median/mean of the top ~20-50 is since it excludes possible rare wonkiness that might happen with the parser (stuff bugs sometimes) or the rare, but possible, incredible strings of luck that are bound to occur.

 

 

Im not arguing that some parses are outliers. Hell my 2721on the dummy was probably an outlier, but I know that I can consistently hit 2680-2700. My point is that its possible to hit good numbers consistently in a raid environment given good gear and a good knowledge of the dps spec.

[IronmanSS]

I'm always kind of suspect of the top listed DPS. There's a Guardian listed as doing over 3.5k DPS on Thrasher (and I checked; it's *all* ST; check it). When looking at top tier DPS, it's better to look at what the median/mean of the top ~20-50 is since it excludes possible rare wonkiness that might happen with the parser (stuff bugs sometimes) or the rare, but possible, incredible strings of luck that are bound to occur.

 

Unfortunately, when you try to take the Top 20~50 median on DPS Shadow or Sin HM parses - you get "Tank Overachievers" on the list since there's just SO MANY DPS Shadows/Sin playing endgame content. Maybe if there was some compelling reason to use one over a Sentinel/Marauder, more people would be playing them (maybe if there was a reason to play melee DPS in general, but that's another story). Sadly, aside from enjoyment of the playstyle/challenge, there really isn't one. So, it's just the die-hard fans like Aran and myself left playing them, managing to squeeze acceptable performance out of them, while other ACs can pull 10-15% higher with the same skill/gear. The rest of the population must have just used logic at one point and moved on.

 

IF they want people to use Shadows/Sins for DPS in endgame PvE, then maybe they should work on the whole 1-2 "chosen ones" capable of producing acceptable numbers, vs. the "sub-par norm" phenomenon. It's pretty clear that despite my penchant for using it, the class is not accessable to the population at large and is being largely abandoned in endgame PvE. In a game consisting of Hundreds of Thousands of players is it a good thing if maybe a handful of players across all servers can produce decent DPS #'s on this class? Or perhaps that's a sign that these are "outlier players" (who would perform even better behind the wheel of any other AC) and the class itself does in fact need some work?

Edited July 9, 2013 by IronmanSS

[leto_cleon]

Im not sure why more Shadow/Sins arent hitting higher numbers, but I do know its possible to pull respectable numbers as a shadow.

 

Prods wildberry to make a guide

[Kitru]

IF they want people to use Shadows/Sins for DPS in endgame PvE, then maybe they should work on the whole 1-2 "chosen ones" capable of producing acceptable numbers, vs. the "sub-par norm" phenomenon.

 

Balancing out the "difficulty" factor is one of the more complicated aspects of class design since it's pretty much *impossible* to quantify. The best you can do is generate a reasonable heuristic by playing the relevant specs and analyzing the specific level of precision required to perform at the intended level. A good example of the dichotomy is pre-2.0 Assault VGs and Balance Shadows. Both of them were, theoretically, the best DPS in the game (Balance edged out Assault by a bit), and were, on their faces, DoT specs. However, because of how they were designed, it was *stupidly* easy to achieve top end performance on a VG and virtually *impossible* to achieve top end performance on a Balance Shadow. The only difference between the two has to be generated heuristically.

 

Personally, were I to be in charge of DPS balancing, I would actively account for skill based mechanisms like DoT clipping by explicitly ignoring the last tick on any DoT that isn't automatically applied but can and should be maintained at all times The primary reason why Balance requires such *incredible* precision to achieve what it can *theoretically* is because of the sheer level of precision and attention required to keep up all DoTs without clipping any of them. Personally, I think that, rather than being *balanced* around the assumption of perfect or near perfect performance, perfect or near perfect performance should be *rewarded* by accomplishing higher than the nominal "theoretical". Making the assumption of some level of automatic DoT clipping on said abilities that are actively likely to clip would do exactly this.

 

The other major considerations, which have always perplexed me, are balancing melee v. ranged (DPS should be the same on average though some fight mechanics explicitly prevent DPS uptime for one or the other; a movement heavy fight screws over ranged characters because they're all cast dependent whereas cleave and spread fights force melee to abandon DPS uptime to deal with those effects; there's even teh question of whether melee should have superior survivability or whether those benefits are offset by instant closing and other functionally required attributes of melee functionality) and balancing cast v. instant constructs. Neither can really be effectively quantified and, honestly, require a combination of heuristic balance combined with enlightened content design to distribute the relevant counters between the classes (for PvP balance) and boss content (for PvE). You can't really balance them *entirely* based upon class design. It requires that the content development team be cognizant of the interaction of the weaknesses/strengths and the intended mechanics so as to distribute the advantageous and disadvantageous mechanisms so that all classes are penalized, on average, the same throughout a given piece of non-trivial content.

[IronmanSS]

For shadows only 1 person (Aranelde and Wild-berry are the same person) is hitting over 2800 dps.

Thrasher Shadow Stats

 

For Assassins only 1 person is hitting over 2700.

Thrasher Assassin Stats

 

Im not sure why more Shadow/Sins arent hitting higher numbers, but I do know its possible to pull respectable numbers as a shadow.

 

This here is part of the issue, but let me try to put this into perspective in another way:

 

Let's pretend that 8 weeks from now, for their next "in-game event", BW is going to have a "DPS-Race Contest". Each account gets one-time access to kill a "special" Ops Dummy with 1 million HP only once. The result is recorded and the account that kills the dummy the fastest wins $1,000,000, epeen galore, the job as Head of Class Balance for SWTOR, etc.

 

Let's just pretend for the sake of argument that this particular dummy has an armor rating of 0 - so that armor pen is no issue - and everything else anyone can think of as far as buffs/debuffs go is somehow made equal for all classes. The Dummy is placed in a separate instance that only 1 player can enter, so there is no outside help, no bugs, no cheating, etc, etc. (Pretend that tanks and healers get their own contest and aren't complaining - lol)

 

With the game balanced as it is currently (2.2.1) would you:

 

A) Try to win the contest with your DPS Shadow/Sin even if you are the max-geared, top player in the world.

 

B) Use the 8 weeks to reroll a Slinger/Sniper, gear it, and learn to play it so you have a shot at winning.

 

C) Complain to BW that since they don't have the DPS ACs within the same "time zone", the contest is unfair until such a time as all ACs can participate while having a remote chance of winning.

 

 

Thing is, why do you need a imaginary contest to prompt you into taking the action you decided upon?

Edited July 9, 2013 by IronmanSS

[tXHereticXt]

I've read in several posts that shadows do the lowest dps. This is pretty sad considering range classes do more damage.

 

I've never rolled dedicated DPS but I know people who do both PVE and PVP and one spec, such as deception/infiltration, is beastly contrary to what a lot of out cry depicted these specs as. A lot of people don't manage their stacks appropriately nor approach an opening with the best of tactics and so attack the spec itself rather than their own player skill. They're heavily viable for melee DPS, you just need to be smart about it.

 

I've also read that they are inferior to other classes in tanking as well.

 

With 2.0 came a few much needed buffs and a pretty nasty nerf in certain fights. I enjoy tanking, I love the balance between DPS and survivability which I felt was lacking in the Jugg. Doesn't mean there aren't issues present that one needs to keep mind of. Been tanking for OPs for a few weeks in a row - competent players will always assure victory.

 

I'm getting the impression that their main strength is either that they can stealth and get past enemies, or that there is hope that they will become better in a later update.

 

There's some much needed tweeking right now but we're not banned from encounters by any means.

 

Are shadows good in any way at the present time?

 

Sin/Shadows are still viable.

[Luckeyduckey]

In PvP, they still reign supreme in burst and utility. Tanking, they're a bit lacking (Maybe a bit more than a bit ) but the DPS isn't terrible. It's not good, though.

[Xinika]

First of all, the thought of Shadows being necessarily inferior should be very carefully examined. If one was to trouble themselves to see exactly how the class was built, you'd notice it was never a specialist to begin with. By default, this is a generalist class. A, shall we say, jack-of-all trades, if you will. If one understands such concept, then the thought of 'inferiority' compared to pures may perhaps, vanish. However, this is design philosophy and not precisely game mechanics which can operate on a different level.

 

So even if we are 'inferior' (which I do not necessarily think that way), isn't it our objective to be said way but have a hand in all fields?

[TheNegotiator]

I've not done parses but I believe my dps (infiltration) shadow is awesome. Seems to blow away my dps vanguard anyway. I was in a 55 HM tonight and the dps was myself and a guardian. We were literally melting stuff.

[Ancaglon]

I've not done parses but I believe my dps (infiltration) shadow is awesome. Seems to blow away my dps vanguard anyway. I was in a 55 HM tonight and the dps was myself and a guardian. We were literally melting stuff.

Yes, I bet you were in the top 2 DPS there.

 

In a sense, it doesn't matter much if you're having fun with the class, but the knowledge that you could get much better results playing a different class does rather dampen that fun.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Ancaglon

[JediZang]

Yes, I bet you were in the top 2 DPS there.

 

In a sense, it doesn't matter much if you're having fun with the class,

 

Truth!

 

but the knowledge that you could get much better results playing a different class does rather dampen that fun.

 

Unless you don't enjoy playing those other classes.