Please do not change shadow/sin tank class!

[LoRdTyRANTz]

For those of us that took the time to experiment in order to properly gear our shadow/sin tanks, please let their be no tradeoffs, migration nerf for DR buff. Bottom line is shadow/sin tanks have cleared HM/NiM content. The majority that are complaining have incorrectly geared themselves because they have chosen their stat distribution based off of what a random person playing with some math equations did. Shadow/sin tank players are doing incompetent things like using 66 sturdiness enhancements, implants and earpieces for HM ops when the devs have specifically stated that the arkanian/underworld gear is sufficient to do HM ops. It is unbelievable that people will believe anything/anyone these days. Theories can be fun and impressive but they are still theories. My guild and I are very happy the way my tank plays and I feel that I shouldn't have to be punished because others are doing crazy things like equipping mending relics and then complaining about frequent large spikes of damage. In all honesty, I feel my tank is in line with where he was pre 2.0. The only change, if any, I feel we need is the 5% DR buff that was taken away in update 2.0. Even then packing an extra 8-10k hp gained via ultimate/underworld gear allows for significantly more self healing over a 6 min fight which I am sure is the reason BW nerfed shadow/sin armor effectiveness in patch 2.0. For those not happy with their shadow/sin tank, take the time to figure it out instead of waiting for someone to do your dirty work. That is part of the game and makes it fun. Otherwise, roll a jugg/guardian tank which I feel now have a very similar play style to shadows/sins with an easier learning/playing curve. The class is loads of fun and you won't be let down but don't take my word for it!

[ErosGyne]

Lets get this straight

So, you dont want us to listen to 1 random person, but you want us to listen to you, another random person on this forums?

And you dont want BW to touch the class but you want a buff?

Edited July 3, 2013 by ErosGyne

[bladorthin]

Wall...of...Text...

[Vaerah]

For those of us that took the time to experiment in order to properly gear our shadow/sin tanks, please let their be no tradeoffs, migration nerf for DR buff. Bottom line is shadow/sin tanks have cleared HM/NiM content. The majority that are complaining have incorrectly geared themselves because they have chosen their stat distr

 

Wall of text

 

With what authority do you say that, considering you can't even use punctuation?

[Gemin]

DR buff would be helpful. NiM TFB Kephess hits like a truck. Like 14-18k per hit. My Shadow has 43k health, 35.4% DR, 22% Def, ~50% Shield with KW and ~40% base Absorb. I am using cooldowns to survive the first 10 sec of the fight. He was also putting a beat down on our Guardian tank that tanks with me. What sucked in that fight was the third ball and the unpredictability of where it would spawn.

 

The giant yellow circle is great.

 

NiM Writhing Horror isn't bad for a well geared Shadow tank. It still hits hard and there is usually a "I am not going to survive this..." moment, but if you use your CD's properly, things should work out.

 

What I'm not happy about as a Shadow tank is how some Op bosses abilities were changed from Force/Tech attacks to Ranged. HM TFB's Scream is now apparently a Ranged Attack. I was saving Resilience for it to help my healers but it still hits- not that it's really an issue any more. The real issue in the TFB second phase fight is how I can be at full health and drop off a platform to clear the Scream debuff and come out the other end dead.

 

Terminate is not a force/tech attack. The End is not a force/tech attack. These things would not be such an issue if Shadows had a bit more DR. Making attacks that can't be mitigated by the class with the lowest DR isn't creating a "challenge" for the players, it's just lazy mechanics programming causing one class to be far less useful than another for tanking.

 

Guardians with Saber Ward and Reflect are now the best tanks in the game in terms of mechanics survivability.

[Kitru]

Even then packing an extra 8-10k hp gained via ultimate/underworld gear allows for significantly more self healing over a 6 min fight which I am sure is the reason BW nerfed shadow/sin armor effectiveness in patch 2.0.

 

First off, to *manage* the extra 8-10k hp you're talking about, you have to gear pretty much *entirely* for Endurance, which completely gibs your actual mitigation (just look at the poster who has 43k hp and only 40% absorb, which is just kinda sad). The math that we're doing *is* for optimized Underworld gear so telling us to use *that* gear is hilariously wrong (since it means that you pretty much have no idea about the math we're doing). Even if you *do* gear yourself out for Endurance, rather than requiring less outside healing which is *supposed* to be the advantage of a Shadow tank, you end up requiring *more* while *still* being spikier than the other tanks (in fact, you'll be even spikier from a practical standpoint than a mitigation stacked Shadow). Regardless of how you gear, you're going to be spikier than the other tanks and, if you work to avoid the RNG-doom, you end up *still* being a worse tank than the others.

 

Secondly, the extra hp you're talking about does next to *nothing* to increase your survivability through self healing. At 36k hp (the level we use in our math), HS provides 240 hp/sec. At 43k hp (the "I stack loads of Hp" level), HS provides all of 286 hp/sec. That's 46 hp/sec. Considering that you're increasing your incoming damage by ~150-200 by reducing your mitigation, it's a net *loss*. The *only* advantage of the increased Hp pool is RNG gib avoidance and, yes, that *still* happens at the huge hp quantities.

 

I actually suggest you look at the math rather than explicitly dismissed it and compare Shadow performance to the other tanks rather than arbitrarily deciding that it works *perfectly* because the content *can* be cleared. The binary of "can clear content" isn't something to balance around. The question is the comparative value of the tanks *while* clearing the content, and it's pretty much universally *known* that the other tanks are more capable of clearing the given content *more easily* than Shadow tanks.

 

Also, something to mention, TfB isn't the content that screws up Shadow tanks. It's not a horribly spiky instance and what we're discussing is *explicitly* Shadow tank weakness to spiky incoming damage. Wait until you're attempting NiM S&V where spikiness *is* a major factor in the outgoing damage of the bosses and *then* tell me that Shadows aren't broken.

 

Judging Shadow performance based upon situations that *we're not even discussing* simply demonstrates that you don't even understand the issue. Seriously, *learn* what you're attempting to discuss before opening your mouth.

 

Also as a side, you posted in the *Consular* forum, not the Shadow forum. The stuff that should be posted here should be stuff that applies to the Consular base class as a whole (which this does not). The Shadow forum is for stuff like this.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Kitru

[PifferPuff]

^ This. Absolutely this ^

 

 

I was furiously pumping my fist in the air on the forums (while still holding out a faint hope that the devs were in their right senses), when testing on the PTS 2.0 (before it went live), and seeing my mitigation stats plummet like a 200lb anvil, the closer I got to level 55. The DR nerf was one thing, but coupled with the mitigation stat nerf straight across the board (from 51-55 that required far far better gear than is even available - then or now) is the class-breaker.

 

As it stands we need to gear our sin/shadows in full 32s to even really have a solid attempt at NiM S&V. Not to mention that our healers, and they will both have to be on us with full life-support spamming heals and buffs, and will have to be 31/32 geared up also -- just so we can have an Okay-ish chance at clearing most of the Op ... But wait - we need to run both 55 NiMs to get all the 32 gear drops, don't we? So how do we gear-progress? Maybe respec for DPS and let our guilds get a heavy-armored tank to carry us, and probably lose our tanking raid spot in the process? I guess that could work 'til we are all decked out in tanking 32s (a bit of a rule-bender for need vs greed), but probably shoe-horned into a dps role anyways; 'cos, the other tank is much easier to heal. But seriously, there shouldn't be the need to go that far. Really.

 

So, until BW decides to fix this imbalance, I have had to resign my shadow tank to the abyss of PvP madness, and [Daily] grinding monotony.

 

On the plus side, thanks to the 2X Exp weekends: I almost have my Guardian tank up to 55! It's not as good as holding adds, but it fares leaps-and-bounds better at survivability than my Shadow currently can.

 

As an aside: For those of you who have rolled a healer, if you have had to heal a Shadow (even in level 55 HM FPs) then you will know just how hard they are to keep up, and how spiky they are. For those who are merely average or mediocre healers (in terms of skill, gear, or both), you have most likely seen your group's Shadow tank die -- a lot. And even if you are a great healer, you have had that one boss attack out of nowhere that drops the Shadow down to almost dead in 1.5 seconds flat -- and none of your best efforts or heals just are sufficient to keep him from dropping after the next hit. In contrast to healing a Guardian/Vanguard, the healing rotation is almost a snore-fest (and I'm not kidding -- I'm almost bored to tears how much free time I have between heals on Guardians/Vanguards).

Edited July 8, 2013 by PifferPuff

[LoRdTyRANTz]

Secondly, the extra hp you're talking about does next to *nothing* to increase your survivability through self healing. At 36k hp (the level we use in our math), HS provides 240 hp/sec. At 43k hp (the "I stack loads of Hp" level), HS provides all of 286 hp/sec. That's 46 hp/sec. Considering that you're increasing your incoming damage by ~150-200 by reducing your mitigation, it's a net *loss*.

 

Oh boy,

That's fine. Whatever you say. I suppose I am just a noob when it comes to math. I just didn't feel the need to do any math since I am happy with my toon and am not experiencing these RNG problems. I do have a good idea in my head about modeling migration with a differential equation, since that is what us engineers use to model rates such as dps, hps, mps, etc. but I am too lazy to write it out for you all. My apologizes. I really feel that you underestimate the devs and do not give them the credit they deserve when doing the math. Mean migration is a thing of the past and btw TTK is not solely based your hp. Sooooo funny. I put this post here because I felt that it would stay towards the top longer where a CS rep could see it just to let them know another side of the story since the shadow forums are constantly changing. Btw, no comprende on your math. 150-200 hp is a constant value and 286 hp/sec is a rate so maybe try again lol.

[Keypek]

I do have a good idea in my head about modeling migration with a differential equation, since that is what us engineers use to model rates such as dps, hps, mps, etc. but I am too lazy to write it out for you all.

 

Does your migration model at least account for the average air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

[Grumpftard]

I just didn't feel the need to do any math since I am happy with my toon....blah blah

I do have a good idea in my head ....blah blah

but I am too lazy to write it out for you all.....blah blah

Btw, no comprende on your math...blah blah

 

Wow...just the fact that those first three were even uttered, REALLY causes one to question the validity behind anything else in the post.

 

As far as the last one....It's Ok....you don't have to comprende Kitru's math. The devs comprende'd it when they made changes to the class based on his and a couple others' work.... or was it that time when he met with them?

 

Bottom line: The number crunchers have done the work, so if you know something that the rest of us don't, then by all means share it. I wan't my tank fixed! But just like in school...you gotta show your work, lest ye be a snake oil salesman!

 

But I will admit...I did get a chuckle with the *migration* thing,

and the comments about *being able* to clear NiM content. Hell....I can put one bullet in a revolver, pull the trigger and *be able* to survive 5 outta 6 times. According to *MY* math that's an 83% chance of success. At that rate....EVERYONE should be good with playing Russian Roulette.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Grumpftard

[Grumpftard]

Does your migration model at least account for the average air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

 

African or European?

[tXHereticXt]

Oh boy,

That's fine. Whatever you say. I suppose I am just a noob when it comes to math.

 

Nothing more really needed to be said.

 

But hey, keep in mind a healer's skills do not scale based on your health pool. So if you're fine putting unnecessary pressure on your healers, by all means - enjoy your deaths.

Edited July 11, 2013 by tXHereticXt

[Ancaglon]

To summarize the OP: "I feel I'm doing fine, so everyone else must be lying! Don't try to confuse me with numbers!"

[Keypek]

African or European?

 

African for pvp and European for pve.