haksilence Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 (edited) How Hard is it really? I know you are just a CS rep but seriously, walk down the hallway and pop your head into development and say "hey guys there is a minor revolt on the forums and the entire shadow/ assassin cm unity is about to quit the game. Are we doing anything about their tanking problems? I've found like 5 pages of some pretty convincing math that makes me think they may have some legitimate problems. What about their DPS? All the leaderboard threads are showing them doing like 200 DPS lower than vanguards 500 DPS lower than gunslingers and about 300 lower than everything else. Did we promise some kind of 5% class balance on that? Oh alright well we may want to let them know that we are working on it or not so they can get on with the game and move onto some other class" I mean come on how much more evidence do you guys need before you admit that you basically turned the shadow into a bench warming class? tank spikiness: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=650473 summary: ... guardians are 20% more likely to die than vanguards (which is a lot). Shadows are 89.5% more likely to die than a vanguard! fixing tank spikiness: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=641620 summary: trading a 5% accuracy debuff for a 4% kinetic/energy damage reduction buff will make shadows less spiky, but still more spiky than juggs, and keep mean mitigation (post heals/absorb) relatively the same. experiential account: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=645815 summary: shadows are not faring well in 16m nightmare operations, compared to other tanks. DPS leaderboards: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=637291 summary: shadows fall about 200 DPS behind vanguards, 300 behind guardians, sages, and scoundrels, 400 bellow commandos and sentinals and a whopping 500 bellow gunslingers. Edited June 26, 2013 by haksilence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avicii Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 The Amaranthine Legacy Jaberse (Shadow tank) Kithide (Commando healer) Anger Management @ The Ebon Hawk I find this the funniest part of the post. I think you might want to really try that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksilence Posted June 26, 2013 Author Share Posted June 26, 2013 ^ obviously doesnt play a shadow, does follow what happens on the forums, or is just a simple troll trollicking through the forums in search of a new bridge to live under. Get lost since you have nothing constructive or intelligent to contribute to the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Get lost since you have nothing constructive or intelligent to contribute to the thread. I actually thought it was something of an amusing observation concerning your current agitated state and the name of your guild. While I think the dismissive attitude of the latter half of his post was kind of pointless (i.e. pretty much telling you to "calm down and stop making a fuss"), the initial point was definitely an ironic observation. I do, however, agree wholeheartedly with the part about trying to get *some* kind of response from the community managers. I could have understood their reticence to say anything if the chances were coming in 2.2.1 or 2.2.2, since it was pretty soon after the release of the crapton of math so it's not like Shadows had been waiting *that* long. But, now? Seriously, there's been no response *or* action for over a month, which should have been long enough to do *something* especially considering the math. If anything, because of the to HM>NiM which are making Shadows *more* of a liability, the only action taken has been to make Shadows *worse* (and Guardians *better*, but, you know, who wasn't expecting *that*). And we *still* haven't been able to get any developer commentary on anything except a response where the devs *finally* figured how how they bollixed up Resilience by including a stealth tweak to the back end of the attack resolution formula and are somehow claiming that it's going to be super difficult to get of what, honestly, is almost assuredly an arbitrary floor function they dropped in there for no reason (if it *isnt* an arbitrary floor function, they had to have done something *completely ******** especially since it wasn't part of the code at release which means that, for it to *not* have been a simple tweak, they would have had to rebuild the formula itself, for no reason whatsoever, in a more complex and convoluted manner). They'll respond in depth to costume part problems, but they won't say *anything* about what's up with Shadow tanks (and, yes, having talked to them, at least *some* of the devs know about it, which makes their inaction all the more mind boggling). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksilence Posted June 26, 2013 Author Share Posted June 26, 2013 Well said kintru. All I/ we want is acknowledgement of the problem, if we know that you guys as the developers see this as a problem then I for one will remain patient and content in the knowledge that it will be a dressed in one way or another in the future, but saying nothing is increasingly disheartening and causing serious contemplation on whether I want to play a game that has a "reroll or be the galaxies first underworld geared seat heater" philosophy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botho Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 (edited) Wall of silence... Yea not good. Since it cant surely be that difficult to add a little DR in some form. I have to think they either disagree with the majority here and there opinions/work, or too time invested in making sure the next bunch of reskinned cartel market stuff is suitably flawed, clipping and buggy for release quality I mean whats the choices.. No News.. Shhh if we keep quiet they will go away eventually, but meantime they will still pay to park here. Bad news.. It's actually harder to fix than ya think /derp Good New.. Yes it's getting fixed Soon™ or It's not getting fixed its fine, play on or reroll if your not happy. Edited June 26, 2013 by Botho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGladius Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears. Nowadays, when I look at my shadow, shake my head, and play another toon. I can't stand to so much as log in as my shadow anymore for end game PvE content. I just don't want to deal with it. Shadow is by far my favorite class, so it is disheartening to see it this way, but I do. I can't help it. On the flip side, my Guardian and Sage have been getting out more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Hopefully we'll see something for Shadows in the 2.3 patch notes, though I'm not holding my breath. Honestly, if there's nothing in there, my subscription is over and I'll move on to other games where I'm *not* waiting interminably to see my preferred class made viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafy_Bug Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 I played my sentinel tonight and put my tanking on hold for the time being. We use a guardian , vanguard and my BIS 72 shadow is gonna get some dust now. These two don't live on the edge on trash and rarely dip into the 20% hp and that is because they do not get heals for a long time. The same healers who healed my shadow in all content say they have an easier job now. The new healers we bring to gear them up say the same so no point gilding the lily. I will play until my sub time runs out and then move on as I tanked for more than a year and it is what I like to do. I can't stand other tanks and I stayed with my gimped shadow for too long. BioWare has their own internal thing, they do not care about the Shadow tank community as you all see. What makes you think eric musco will actually reply? They are not interested in this class anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 thought i would try to consolidate some of the evidence: tank spikiness: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=650473 summary: ... guardians are 20% more likely to die than vanguards (which is a lot). Shadows are 89.5% more likely to die than a vanguard! fixing tank spikiness: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=641620 summary: trading a 5% accuracy debuff for a 4% kinetic/energy damage reduction buff will make shadows less spiky, but still more spiky than juggs, and keep mean mitigation (post heals/absorb) relatively the same. experiential account: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=645815 summary: shadows are not faring well in 16m nightmare operations, compared to other tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksilence Posted June 26, 2013 Author Share Posted June 26, 2013 thank you dipstick, i will consolidate that in the OP as well as evidence towards their DPS problems http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=637291 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talonwk Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 I am going to the Cantina Tour in a couple of weeks and Shadow/Sin tanking is one of my top 2 questions I would like to get an answer on. (Second being what was the reasoning HM/NiM TFB shares the same lockouts now that they have different tiers of gear?). Until then I have rerolled a Jugg because I already have a Ptech and my guild has plenty of Ptech tanks atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronmanSS Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) I figured I would post this developer interview link here since its good info for all Shadows and Assassins to know. Austin Peckenpaugh Interview on 2.0 Shadow/Assassin Balancing The entire interview is honestly a good read and I suggest anyone who wants to look deeper into the decision making behind some of the 2.0 class balance changes for Shadows/Sins takes the time to read it. This part in particular is worth another look: ... I must mention that when we do our internal playtests against real enemies with real group conditions, Assassins are in fact hitting our DPS targets. Our tests aren’t perfect, however, and we don’t test every fight or scenario with every spec, so we will be looking forward to seeing the results players provide for us. If things really aren’t looking good for Assassins, we won’t hesitate to make the necessary adjustments. Well, how are things looking for Shadows/Assassins (or PTs) after several months now to look at "real" numbers? Shadow Tank balance could really use a good looking over as well. I bet many of us would just honestly like an update as to whether things are "working as intended" presently. PS - For a chuckle see My Parody Interview Thread Edited June 27, 2013 by IronmanSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafy_Bug Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) I would really like to see Kelsara in NiM killed with two shadow damage dealers .. One is already a gimp ... Edited June 27, 2013 by Leafy_Bug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 since the dps leaderboards have sins all alone, they (devs) might not care so much, because in the interview he says that sin dps depends on other peoples debuffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronmanSS Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 (edited) I would really like to see Kelsara in NiM killed with two shadow damage dealers .. One is already a gimp ... Pre-nerf I'd say this would have been unlikely - but with the extra 30 seconds - I think that 2 DPS Shadows on top of their games would not have any issue doing their jobs now. Barring flat out ridiculous group comps like 4 melee, I think any 4 DPS playing within 10% of their skill cap will meet the NiM DPS target once they have the mechanics down pat. Honestly, when played at high skill, DPS Shadows/Sins have been able to carry their own weight - they just don't have as much room to carry anyone else. The real issue I'd like to see addressed at one point is the question of given access to both ACs and the same gear - what compelling reason is there to slot your Shadow over your Sentinel. Right now Slingers/Sents pack the best possible DPS and bring Raid-wide utility buffs for your whole crew. I prefer my Sin's playstyle, but there are times I struggle with the thought that although I'm playing well enough to carry my own weight, I could be doing considerably more for my raid group playing a Marauder. In the end it is a selfish choice, but I think I'd quit if forced to make this call, because this is a game after all and I find my Sin to be way more "fun". In my "ideal" version of SWTOR PvE DPS class balance - each DPS class/spec would bring something compelling to the table - even if that something were not straight-up top DPS. There could be a "Hybrid-tax" - but it would be a "flat tax", and minor enough that there'd still be a good argument for choosing any of the DPS specs. I think that's something that they could easily work towards via minor iterative class changes happening on a schedule considerably more often than every 6-12 months. I've just never seen a game where class balance happened at such a glacial pace, and when adjustments do occur they are made with so many other sweeping changes that the entire balancing process is basically rebooted - instead of carefully nudged towards a state of balance. To get the thread back on topic though - I think it's been demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that Shadow TANK balance is very close to busted - and if they release NiM S&V "as is" then the gap between Shadow and Guardian tanks is going to increase thanks to Huge Grenade alone. And if Shadow tanks are "out" - then comparing Vanguard tanks to Guardians is kind of a no brainer. I'm strongly considering using these 2x XP weekends to level up a Jugg tank because I play the Tank role at times, and would love to see what its like to be "Superman". This is of course BAD for the game and should be addressed before "Soon ®". Edited June 28, 2013 by IronmanSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 This is of course BAD for the game and should be addressed before "Soon ®". And yet we haven't even gotten a "soon " yet. Which is even *more* awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saprezzan Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 (edited) While we're at it, can we do something about the terrible Kinetic Ward mechanic? I absolutely loathe this ability and its animation. Edited June 28, 2013 by Saprezzan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksilence Posted June 28, 2013 Author Share Posted June 28, 2013 Kinetic ward is a phenomenal ability that is truly unique in this game and I find the animation quite appropriate, I suggest you take those requests elsewhere since kinetic ward and kinetic bulwark are the only things that give shadows a leg up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGladius Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Kinetic ward is a phenomenal ability that is truly unique in this game and I find the animation quite appropriate, I suggest you take those requests elsewhere since kinetic ward and kinetic bulwark are the only things that give shadows a leg up I might agree with you, Hak, except that reliance on those variable abilities exacerbate our squishy, spikey nature. At the peril of 'dumbing down' the class, I think I'd rather see a static 20% shield boost and a flat 4% higher Absorb chance, at the very least. Still spikier than a flat 1-2% DR buff, but also slightly less variable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 I might agree with you, Hak, except that reliance on those variable abilities exacerbate our squishy, spikey nature. At the peril of 'dumbing down' the class, I think I'd rather see a static 20% shield boost and a flat 4% higher Absorb chance, at the very least. Still spikier than a flat 1-2% DR buff, but also slightly less variable. At 15 charges, losing charges before KW comes off of CD isn't really a worry. At worst, I'd suggest that they remove the CD from KW completely, so that you can refresh it whenever (i.e. as soon as the stacks drop, no matter when they end up falling, whether it's 3 seconds after clicking because you're tanking a trash pack of 8 or right as the last stack is about to fall off naturally). Your idea would only reduce spikiness for people that *don't* know how to use KW. Any Shadow tank worth their salt isn't ever going to let it fall off and those that are good are only going to refresh it right as its falling off to maximize KB effectiveness. The only people your change would *help* are bad Shadows, and, honestly, I'm not really interested all that much in helping them. KW is one of the things that makes Shadows *fun*. It's controllable variability that allows a well played Shadow to shine and makes a poorly played Shadow eat dust. Along with our self healing and CD specificity, it's one of the reasons why Shadows are the skill tanks of the game rather than the "use it on CD" design that the other tanks follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGladius Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 The reason I'd rather see it done that way isn't because it falls off too soon. Rather, it is the variability of Bulwark that is my perceived problem. Sometimes you have no stacks, sometimes you have 8 stacks, and a tank of any skill level has no control over where in that range it stands at any given moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 The reason I'd rather see it done that way isn't because it falls off too soon. Rather, it is the variability of Bulwark that is my perceived problem. Sometimes you have no stacks, sometimes you have 8 stacks, and a tank of any skill level has no control over where in that range it stands at any given moment. Eh, I think it's an acceptable level of variability. On a percent basis, Absorb has pretty much the least impact on spikiness and mean mitigation of all of the stats, especially at the limited value that KB provides. What matters more is the KW stacks themselves. KB's variability is nice because it allows a well played Shadow to get more out of it than a mediocre or poorly played Shadow. If your problem is the KB stacks, you shouldn't be looking at "fixing" KW at all. What you're really asking for is to change KB from its current implementation into a straight up passive Absorb. It would be boring as hell, but it would, at the very least, fix what you're looking to fix without completely obliterating KW. Shadows *shouldn't* be changed so that they're pretty much raw passive tanks like VGs and Guardians are. If they *were* changed as such, they would be boring as hell, which kills the fun of playing one. It also doesn't fix spikiness in the least. What kills Shadows isn't the fact that, when they shield, the incoming damage can vary a bit (honestly, most people only notice the variability over a long period of time rather than in the short term); it's that the practical difference between a shielded hit and a non-shielded hit are *so much larger* than for the other tanks (for a 50k hit, on a Shadow, a shielded attack is 15.6k and a non-shielded hit is 32.5k; for a Guardian, it's 16.25k and 25k; a VG, 10.3k and 24.5k): a shielded hit is pretty much standard fare; a non-shielded hit is a *big* chunk of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saprezzan Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 Well, I should've added that I'm mainly a PvP player; I don't like KW in such setting because it's more less busy work - you usually really don't have time to watch KB stacks in a hectic PvP fight... At the very least, I'd like to see the animation removed - I really hate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpmewin Posted June 29, 2013 Share Posted June 29, 2013 (edited) /signed Need something to do with shadows tank DR. He is not fun in PvP as in PvE. For PvE i rerolled on guardian. But shadow i like more. Its sad. With my 55 guardian im done several 55 HM FP with half war hero war leader gear without any problem. Nothing to say about this to shadow.... Edited June 29, 2013 by helpmewin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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