How is Revan godlike?

[Beniboybling]

Then you failed to pay attention. That "killing the force" thing was a lie, an ultimatum strong enough to FORCE you to kill her, leave you no choice but to sever your tie with her. She gets enraged when you try to show her mercy because that would mean she has failed as a teacher.

 

Her "turning" at the end was a final lesson for the Exile to understand that betrayal can come from anyone, even your teachers and that you should not show mercy, even to her.

 

Thanks for proving my point about why people dislike the game though.

Nice to see someone understood the game in the same way as I did.

 

To add to that, we have to remember that to complete her training, the Exile needed to defeat Kreia. In order to sever the Force bond between them.

[Jandi]

Nice to see someone understood the game in the same way as I did.

 

To add to that, we have to remember that to complete her training, the Exile needed to defeat Kreia. In order to sever the Force bond between them.

 

Kreia is the deepest character in any SW game. However, the others were well done as well, especially Atton and Canderous. Mira and Mical were awesome too, especially Mical's philosophical musings which lends credit as to why Kreia wanted the last Jedi Masters to die, because they failed the galaxy and if they were to live, would do so again.

 

It just takes a lot of planning to get everyone maxed out with influence in order to get the full stories out. Well, except Mical and Mira as you can max them out just from choosing the right dialogue choices right after you meet them, making them really good Jedi/Sith companions. Mical can be trained the moment you step out of the ruins and Mira the moment you get back to your ship, meaning you shouldn't level her up when you first get to play as her and instead, just run straight to the door to let you in.

 

Atton you can max if you go evil on Telos and the rest from Nar Shaddaa.

 

Maxing HK and T1 is especially funny as you get a lot of cool stuff out of them.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Jandi

[Beniboybling]

Kreia is the deepest character in any SW game. However, the others were well done as well, especially Atton and Canderous. Mira and Mical were awesome too, especially Mical's philosophical musings which lends credit as to why Kreia wanted the last Jedi Masters to die, because they failed the galaxy and if they were to live, would do so again.

I don't believe Kreia wanted the Jedi Master's dead. In fact I think she says as much if you take the DS path and kill them. Kreia wanted revenge, but she wanted to achieve it by making them admit that they were wrong, and see the error of their ways.

 

However, when the masters attempted to sever the Exile from the Force her hand was forced and she had no choice but to intervene and to kill them. Nonetheless, she did believe that the Jedi had failed as an order. And I think she wanted the Exile to start anew.

[Jandi]

I don't believe Kreia wanted the Jedi Master's dead. In fact I think she says as much if you take the DS path and kill them. Kreia wanted revenge, but she wanted to achieve it by making them admit that they were wrong, and see the error of their ways.

 

However, when the masters attempted to sever the Exile from the Force her hand was forced and she had no choice but to intervene and to kill them. Nonetheless, she did believe that the Jedi had failed as an order. And I think she wanted the Exile to start anew.

 

True, she wanted to prove through the Exile that the Force wasn't the answer to everything and blindly serving it's whims is what led them to their doom.

 

I honestly forgot about the DS encounter, it's been too long Have you ever been full DS while still letting the masters live? Now THAT is fun. You can't be DS with Vrook though, he senses it and attacks you regardless so you have to be on the light side just a little when you finish dantooine, so you have to head there first, then go full ds

Edited June 8, 2013 by Jandi

[Beniboybling]

True, she wanted to prove through the Exile that the Force wasn't the answer to everything and blindly serving it's whims is what led them to their doom.

 

I honestly forgot about the DS encounter, it's been too long Have you ever been full DS while still letting the masters live? Now THAT is fun. You can't be DS with Vrook though, he senses it and attacks you regardless so you have to be on the light side just a little when you finish dantooine, so you have to head there first, then go full ds

I always wondered what would happen if messed with the mechanics a bit. I mean what would happen if you did Dantooine last and just killed one Jedi Master?

 

But yeah, I played through DS and got that lecture from Kreia about how I was a failure. That made me sad.

[TalonVII]

Then you failed to pay attention. That "killing the force" thing was a lie, an ultimatum strong enough to FORCE you to kill her, leave you no choice but to sever your tie with her. She gets enraged when you try to show her mercy because that would mean she has failed as a teacher.

 

Her "turning" at the end was a final lesson for the Exile to understand that betrayal can come from anyone, even your teachers and that you should not show mercy, even to her.

 

Thanks for proving my point about why people dislike the game though.

 

Not that I failed to pay attention insomuch that I couldn't separate the lies and betrayals from the truth. Sometimes with all that double speak and then brutal truth, kinda easy to be lost in the woods. Though, like Mal Rhenolds from Firefly, I like being lost in the woods, only way to find a path clear.

 

Though IMO I think they rushed to the ending you spoke of instead of really DEVELOPING these "wounds" in the force. I think they were trying to get some deeper meaning into them and something that was going to be one of those focal points in galactic history. I just don't think they had time to properly write it out.

 

Another reason why I never really liked the ending. It went to all these wounds to "i just wanted to train you to see different things."

 

Ok what about these wounds in the force, these echos, what about ME[you being the protagonist in the game] being what the jedi called me, a leech of the force?

 

All this build up and, no real clear definitive answers.

[Beniboybling]

Not that I failed to pay attention insomuch that I couldn't separate the lies and betrayals from the truth. Sometimes with all that double speak and then brutal truth, kinda easy to be lost in the woods. Though, like Mal Rhenolds from Firefly, I like being lost in the woods, only way to find a path clear.

 

Though IMO I think they rushed to the ending you spoke of instead of really DEVELOPING these "wounds" in the force. I think they were trying to get some deeper meaning into them and something that was going to be one of those focal points in galactic history. I just don't think they had time to properly write it out.

 

Another reason why I never really liked the ending. It went to all these wounds to "i just wanted to train you to see different things."

 

Ok what about these wounds in the force, these echos, what about ME[you being the protagonist in the game] being what the jedi called me, a leech of the force?

 

All this build up and, no real clear definitive answers.

Well in the words of the Exile herself:

 

"Kreia has told many lies, and the architecture is difficult to see."

 

Nevertheless the ending was meant to be ambiguous, yes it was rushed, but that only led to your companion stories being cut out, and a rather undeveloped Trayus Academy. However concerning dialogue, and the underlying themes of the game, the specifically avoided any kind of big reveal or moment of clarity when everything slots into place like we see in KOTOR I that you are in fact Darth Revan. They avoid definitive answers:

 

“Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core.”

 

Indeed if I had to some up KOTOR II in one word, it would be cryptic. Just play through the game again, but with the purpose of finding answers, and it will become all the more obvious how the game evades your questions and provides half answers. This is purposeful.

 

Some things are left for you to puzzle out. Its left up to you to puzzle out Kreia's intentions and the significance of her teachings, and how your actions effect others. The game doesn't hand the answers to you on a silver platter, and TBH I prefer it that way. KOTOR I was great fun and I enjoyed it, but it hasn't stuck with me and left me thinking for hours on end like KOTOR II has - which continues to both fascinate and surprise me to this day.

[TalonVII]

Well in the words of the Exile herself:

 

"Kreia has told many lies, and the architecture is difficult to see."

 

Nevertheless the ending was meant to be ambiguous, yes it was rushed, but that only led to your companion stories being cut out, and a rather undeveloped Trayus Academy. However concerning dialogue, and the underlying themes of the game, the specifically avoided any kind of big reveal or moment of clarity when everything slots into place like we see in KOTOR I that you are in fact Darth Revan. They avoid definitive answers:

 

“Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core.”

 

Indeed if I had to some up KOTOR II in one word, it would be cryptic. Just play through the game again, but with the purpose of finding answers, and it will become all the more obvious how the game evades your questions and provides half answers. This is purposeful.

 

Some things are left for you to puzzle out. Its left up to you to puzzle out Kreia's intentions and the significance of her teachings, and how your actions effect others. The game doesn't hand the answers to you on a silver platter, and TBH I prefer it that way. KOTOR I was great fun and I enjoyed it, but it hasn't stuck with me and left me thinking for hours on end like KOTOR II has - which continues to both fascinate and surprise me to this day.

 

Well i didn't want it to answer EVERYTHYING, but come on. The theme about how the Exile bonded with people, how she was leeching, Nihalus, the wounds in the force, Malachor V, you know one of the central parts of the game, that usually you want to explain, you just get nothing.

 

Just a few words from Kreia and that's just supposed to say "oh i lied about all that, there is just you."

 

No...that's just terrible writing and rushed production right there. You don't have this central theme that goes from minute one and then when you get to the end it's like "nope, there is nothing about that, just a final test, beat me" from Kreia.

 

No, just no, I will not accept that answer. Don't get me wrong, I LOVED the game, and I did think it was better than KOTOR 1 just on the interface ALONE. The story was dark, and up until you saw the jedi council, it was epic, breath taking, amazing.

 

Then you get into the end game story and it's just...what? What was that?!

 

That's why a lot of people got turned off. All this build up, expecting atleast some kind of explanation about these wounds and how the Exile tied in and...nothing.

 

And you can't account it JUST to Kreia either. Whole reason you were going to be cut off from the force by the Jedi if you did the light side path. Your companions all talked about it in some shape or form. It was mentioned many times by Atriss.

 

So, to me, biggest let down of the game was almost no explanation on these wounds and why they were so critical. Take Malachor V for example. The root of the Exile's wound in the force. You destroy Malachor V, but it's like it had little meaning in the act. It's like the wound there was for nothing. I mean what was it supposed to be, to see if the Exile could withstand it? Was that it?

 

I mean you said it's up to you to figure out, but no, the onus is on Bioware and lucas arts for not fleshing that out correctly.

[Beniboybling]

Well i didn't want it to answer EVERYTHYING, but come on. The theme about how the Exile bonded with people, how she was leeching, Nihalus, the wounds in the force, Malachor V, you know one of the central parts of the game, that usually you want to explain, you just get nothing.

What? They spend like 10 minutes of the game explaining that... you know the part were you meet the Jedi Council at the Enclave and they explain why your a wound in the Force, and how you leech on other people, and how to make connections with your companions etc. Nihilus has a brief backstory, but again its deliberately ambiguous because he's meant to be a symbol, fleshing him out with rob him of his mysterious spectral nature. Malachor V... have you heard of the Mass Shadow Generator? I'm confused as to how you missed all this.

[Beniboybling]

I only say Mandalorian Wars because I haven't seen much regarding tactical prowess from him during the JCW. Props for his overall strategy, but I haven't seen much regarding battle tactics.

 

I'd be more than willing to accept him as a great tactician, but the evidence isn't there for me. This is the same with Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord. They are believed to be some of the most powerful Sith, but the evidence is scarce.

 

As it stands, Revan is more than capable to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

I find it hard to believe that multiple source books, a comic series, in-game events and the in-game word of the Mandalorians and Echani - highly militarized races who regarded him as nothing short of a tactical god (that is not an exaggeration, they did) - can be considered 'scarce evidence'.

 

In fact I'd be justified in saying that Revan can be canonically defined as a brilliant military strategist. I have enough canonical statements to support it. On Force abilities its far more ambiguous, but strategic abilities? It couldn't be more clear cut.

 

Personal opinions aside, I'm afraid its simply impossible to refute that Revan's excellent strategic ability was the reason the Mandalorian Wars turned in the Republic's favour, doing what Republic generals could not.

 

But if that's not enough for you, just remember that Revan had excellent ability to battle precognition.

[Wolfninjajedi]

It's a common misconception that Traya wanted to kill the Force, which tends to come about from a misinterpretation of the facts and a failure to see the bigger picture. However it is not the case, otherwise she would have just let Nihilus get on with creating wounds in the Force and eventually the Force would have died.

 

Now it is likely that as Darth Traya, prior to her betrayal, Kreia did want to destroy the Force which is likely why she set in motion the actions of Sion and Nihilus. However, and I can't stress this enough, Kreia underwent redemption. She realised what she was doing was wrong and instead attempted to prevent it and at the same time make a better future for the galaxy as a whole.

 

“Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose.”

 

Training the Exile, was her way of doing this. And when the Exile pasted her final test, defeating her master and severing the bond between them, Kreia hoped that she would go on to make a better galaxy. One with the Force but one where people are more able to be free of it. And most importantly, one of peace. People don't seem the realise how good Kreia's intentions actually were, if she had had her way, they would be no war. And for that reason I believe she did want to stop the coming of the Sith Empire.

 

But anyway, if you want to read my full insights on here intentions. I strongly suggest you my Revisiting An in-depth look at: Kreia. I think when people play KOTOR II they don't actually pay close attention to everything Kreia is saying and miss half of the picture. If you pay attention, you'll really find an extraordinarily different picture of who Kreia is.

 

Well I got the gist of it in the game, but then I haven't played it in years(YEARS! Well that and I only played the female side once...I just can't seem to play a female char.) so I forgot some things clearly. I wasn't strictly saying she wanted to, just that the plan itself was rather ridiculous.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Well I got the gist of it in the game, but then I haven't played it in years(YEARS!) so I forgot somethings clearly. I wasn't strictly saying she wanted to, just that the plan itself was rather ridiculous.

Was it? Granted its impossible to kill the Force, but impossible to deafen everyone in the galaxy to it? Lets remember that this was her original plan, she only meant to 'kill' the Force in the metaphorical sense.

 

If Nihilus had been allowed to continue everyone in the galaxy would have become deafened to the Force and either died or given it up. That much is certain. It was possible, but the effects would have been cataclysmic to say the least. Hence why she gave it up and instead tried to prevent it... or at least on the assumption that that was her purpose in the first place and things didn't just get out of hand.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Was it? Granted its impossible to kill the Force, but impossible to deafen everyone in the galaxy to it? Lets remember that this was her original plan, she only meant to 'kill' the Force in the metaphorical sense.

 

If Nihilus had been allowed to continue everyone in the galaxy would have become deafened to the Force and either died or given it up. That much is certain. It was possible, but the effects would have been cataclysmic to say the least. Hence why she gave it up and instead tried to prevent it... or at least on the assumption that that was her purpose in the first place and things didn't just get out of hand.

 

Perhaps though I feel it might be a temp thing, not so much a permanent one. Or at least not for the later generations anyway.

[Aurbere]

I find it hard to believe that multiple source books, a comic series, in-game events and the in-game word of the Mandalorians and Echani - highly militarized races who regarded him as nothing short of a tactical god (that is not an exaggeration, they did) - can be considered 'scarce evidence'.

 

In fact I'd be justified in saying that Revan can be canonically defined as a brilliant military strategist. I have enough canonical statements to support it. On Force abilities its far more ambiguous, but strategic abilities? It couldn't be more clear cut.

 

Personal opinions aside, I'm afraid its simply impossible to refute that Revan's excellent strategic ability was the reason the Mandalorian Wars turned in the Republic's favour, doing what Republic generals could not.

 

But if that's not enough for you, just remember that Revan had excellent ability to battle precognition.

 

I am well aware of the statements from his enemies, but the actual evidence is scarce. Which is why I made the comparison between Revan and Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord. Both have statements that back up their prowess, but the actual evidence is scarce.

 

Also, regarding the Mandalorian Wars, play through KOTOR again. Ask the Jedi on Dantooine, and the Rakata on Kashyyyk, then you will see what I mean by 'Mandalorian tactics.'

[Aurbere]

the Revan haters (such as Aurbere)

 

And yet Revan is in my top 10 favorite characters.

[Aurbere]

It just occurred to me that I never put forth my own thoughts on Revan's abilities. I've mostly just tried to keep people from making Revan something he's not, which has led to me being branded as a hater. Before I start, I just want to say that I have never said that Revan is weak or an imbecile. My posts come off that, but it is not the intention.

 

So without further ado, I shall discuss my personal feelings on Revan's capabilities in the three categories I mentioned in my first post in this thread.

 

Lightsaber skill: There really isn't much evidence to say what level of skill Revan has here. The only real opponent that he's faced in lightsaber combat is Darth Malak, who Revan has always been superior to. However, Malak was considered one of the best lightsaber duelists of that time. So it can be said that Revan is one of the best lightsaber duelists of that time as well.

 

Force Power: Again, not much evidence here, but the most impressive one is his victory over Darth Nyriss. I reject the notion that Nyriss can easily handle the Jedi Exile, but it happened so there ya go. I don't know how this places Revan regarding most powerful Force users, but he definitely makes top 20. Out of thousands upon thousands upon thousands of Force users, top 20 is pretty gosh darn good.

 

And now tactical prowess, the category that seems to create the most controversy. Again, I have never said that Revan is an imbecile, just that I haven't seen much that makes him a tactical genius. People make the jump to tactical genius based on character quotes, but I have not seen enough evidence to point me to such a conclusion.

 

Personally, I believe Revan to be a planner. The evidence points more to this than anything else.

 

I'll also cordially respond to this:

 

Just stumbled upon a quote from our good friend Canderous Ordo:

 

'Revan was one of the greatest military leaders in the galaxy, in history. He knew what he was doing.'

 

Just saying...

 

Canderous never met Grand Admiral Thrawn, Nuso Esva, Gial Ackbar, Jan Dodonna, Gilad Pellaeon, Nek Bwua'tu, Wilhuff Tarkin, Darth Vader, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and so on.

 

Said quote can only apply to the military leaders up to Revan, as Canderous never met the future tacticians.

 

 

Regardless, I have offered my personal thoughts on Revan. This is my peace offering- my olive branch. If you wish to continue this argument, I can retract this kindness.

 

Edit: Regardless, this is my final post in this thread. I have threads to make and fan-fics to write. I simply don't have the time to argue about Revan anymore.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

Canderous never met Grand Admiral Thrawn, Nuso Esva, Gial Ackbar, Jan Dodonna, Gilad Pellaeon, Nek Bwua'tu, Wilhuff Tarkin, Darth Vader, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and so on.

 

Said quote can only apply to the military leaders up to Revan, as Canderous never met the future tacticians.

That point would only have bearing, if no leaders of particularly considerable tactical ability had existed prior to the Mandalorian Wars. And I find that hard to believe. Canderous as extensive knowledge of tactical ability, and I'm sure he knows a excellent strategist when he sees one.

 

The very fact that a culture dedicated to war (two cultures if we include the Echani) praised him as a tactical genius would suggest he was an excellent strategist at the least. Now of course character statements are not canon, but as in-universe characters, written by those with a licences to produce Star Wars, I'm afraid their opinions greatly outweigh yours or anyone else's on that matter. So unless you have factual or canonical evidence to support your claim, or special considerations for why their opinions are invalid, they should be taken for face value.

I am well aware of the statements from his enemies, but the actual evidence is scarce. Which is why I made the comparison between Revan and Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord. Both have statements that back up their prowess, but the actual evidence is scarce.

 

Also, regarding the Mandalorian Wars, play through KOTOR again. Ask the Jedi on Dantooine, and the Rakata on Kashyyyk, then you will see what I mean by 'Mandalorian tactics.'

But like I said, the evidence is not scarce. As we have comics, in-game events and source books to support those character claims. See page 6 for some examples. We are aware of what happened during the Mandalorian Wars, and in every accounting of events something to the effect of 'Revan turned the tide of the war' will crop up and for good reason.

 

P.S. Right now, I don't have time to play KOTOR again. So you'll have to enlighten me.

[Beniboybling]

Regardless, I have offered my personal thoughts on Revan. This is my peace offering- my olive branch. If you wish to continue this argument, I can retract this kindness.

 

Edit: Regardless, this is my final post in this thread. I have threads to make and fan-fics to write. I simply don't have the time to argue about Revan anymore.

Your entitled to your opinion on the matter. But I feel i'm also entitled to my opinion that Revan was an excellent strategist and tactician, the evidence against is simply not strong enough to justify a complete refutation as untrue.

 

We can agree to disagree on the matter, but can go no further than that.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Final, final post, because I'm about to post the next BattleZone match.

 

That point would only have bearing, if no leaders of particularly considerable tactical ability had existed prior to the Mandalorian Wars. And I find that hard to believe. Canderous as extensive knowledge of tactical ability, and I'm sure he knows a excellent strategist when he sees one.

 

Ulic Qel Droma and Cassus Fett are the only capable tacticians that I can name, unless we count the Echani.

 

The very fact that a culture dedicated to war (two cultures if we include the Echani) praised him as a tactical genius would suggest he was an excellent strategist at the least. Now of course character statements are not canon, but as in-universe characters, written by those with a licences to produce Star Wars, I'm afraid their opinions greatly outweigh yours or anyone else's on that matter. So unless you have factual or canonical evidence to support your claim, or special considerations for why their opinions are invalid, they should be taken for face value.[/color]

 

We could then say that Vitiate is a god-like being, Revan is the Heart of the Force, and so on. Character statements such as these are non-canon.

 

Also, both the Mandalorians and the Echani can only make judgments based on what they know. They do not know who the people that I mentioned before are. Not only that, but Revan was likely the first really good tactician the galaxy had seen. So it is obvious that they would consider him to be a genius, he was better than those that came before him.

 

But like I said, the evidence is not scarce. As we have comics, in-game events and source books to support those character claims. See page 6 for some examples. We are aware of what happened during the Mandalorian Wars, and in every accounting of events something to the effect of 'Revan turned the tide of the war' will crop up and for good reason.

 

P.S. Right now, I don't have time to play KOTOR again. So you'll have to enlighten me.

 

Very well. If we speak with the Dantooine Jedi Council regarding the Mandalore Wars, we find out that Revan and Malak engaged the Mandalorians on even terms- Mandalore's term. This is only backed up by the Rakata on Kashyyyk when he quizzes you about military strategy.

 

That is what I mean when I say that Revan used Mandalorian tactics. Never did I mean that Revan had Cassus Fett's playbook. I meant that Revan and Malak eventually fought like Mandalorians, and their victory came through superior numbers and Jedi.

 

Revan employs a number of tactics in the war, as Canderous says. Which is why I consider Revan a planner. On the battlefield they fought as Mandalorians would, but Revan created plans to defeat the Mandalorians. The Jedi Civil War further backs up the notion that Revan is primarily a planner.

 

Regardless, this is my final post on this thread.

[TalonVII]

What? They spend like 10 minutes of the game explaining that... you know the part were you meet the Jedi Council at the Enclave and they explain why your a wound in the Force, and how you leech on other people, and how to make connections with your companions etc. Nihilus has a brief backstory, but again its deliberately ambiguous because he's meant to be a symbol, fleshing him out with rob him of his mysterious spectral nature. Malachor V... have you heard of the Mass Shadow Generator? I'm confused as to how you missed all this.

 

and all the mass shadow generator did was break up Malachor 5. I mean just breaking up the remains of a planet and that suddenly seals the wound?

 

Explain how that makes sense? See all you are doing now, is infusing the gaps in the story with your own logic, which further proves my point. Bioware did a BAD job filling in the story.

[Beniboybling]

Ulic Qel Droma and Cassus Fett are the only capable tacticians that I can name, unless we count the Echani.

Naga Sadow? Empress Teta? Mandalore the Indomitable? Mandalore the Ultimate? Saul Karath? Carth Onasi? Meetra Surik? Master Kavar? Along with many other unnamed Generals and Admirals of countless conflicts? Again, I find it hard to believe that Revan was the first capable tactician of the Old Republic era, or that the galaxy was completely ignorant to the concept of 'tactical genius'.

 

And that's without taking into account the intentions of the writers, I highly doubt such comments were designed to give players the opinion that Revan was merely a competent strategist, because after pouring over their great reservoirs of lore they would reach the conclusion that Revan was the first competent strategist to emerge in the Old Republic era. I think people often lose sight of the purpose of in-character statements and forget this is a fictional universe with writers and intentions. It was the writers intentions to potray Revan as an excellent strategist else they would have written the various stories in a different manner, a very different manner indeed.

We could then say that Vitiate is a god-like being, Revan is the Heart of the Force, and so on. Character statements such as these are non-canon.

To quote myself "So unless you have factual or canonical evidence to support your claim, or special considerations for why their opinions are invalid, they should be taken for face value."...

 

...Vitiate was called a god-like being, but by his followers who had been brainwashed into worshiping him - nonetheless it points to him being an exceptionally powerful Force user. Traya was using a metaphor to describe Revan, there is no such thing as the 'heart of the Force', however likewise it points to Revan being an exceptionally powerful Force user. Canderous amongst others called Revan an exception strategist, it was not a metaphor, nor were they under the influence of bias of any kind, nor do the lack the experience to comment. There are therefore no special considerations to doubt the reality of what they are saying.

That is what I mean when I say that Revan used Mandalorian tactics. Never did I mean that Revan had Cassus Fett's playbook. I meant that Revan and Malak eventually fought like Mandalorians, and their victory came through superior numbers and Jedi.

 

Revan employs a number of tactics in the war, as Canderous says. Which is why I consider Revan a planner. On the battlefield they fought as Mandalorians would, but Revan created plans to defeat the Mandalorians. The Jedi Civil War further backs up the notion that Revan is primarily a planner.

Yes I recall. The Rakata device on Kashyyyk only accepts the brutal, arguably immoral options. However as far as I'm aware, immoral, callous tactics are not distinctly Mandalorian. My point being is that Revan didn't just mimic what the Mandalorians did, he merely had the strength of will to make sacrifices as the Mandalorians were doing. This does not constitute copying Mandalorian tactics, and therefore cannot be used as an argument against him. Its simply invalid on multiple levels. If this were the case Revan would have lost, because the Mandalorians would have seen the weaknesses in such tactics and acted to exploit them.

 

Not sure were you got the idea Revan had superior numbers, logic would imply that the Republic was outnumbered seeing as they had suffered 13 years of defeat and likely taken heavy causalities. The Jedi may have tipped the scale, but likely only made up for the extreme losses they had already made.

Regardless, this is my final post on this thread.

I don't expect a response as this debate could continue indefinitely. I will point out though that I'm am 99% sure that the writers at BioWare and Obsidian if asked would support my side of the argument.

[Aurbere]

Alright Beni, I'm not going to respond to your whole post, but I think you are mistaking my intention here. Even though I said that I was done, I just want to make myself clear.

 

I have never said that Revan is a mediocre tactician. I have said that he is more than competent. As in, he is a great tactician. But there is a fine line between being great and being a genius. You may think he is a genius, but when you compare him to the other geniuses, he doesn't make it.

 

So final words, Revan's a great tactician, but he is not on the same level as Thrawn, Nuso Esva, Garm Bel Iblis, and Nek Bwua'tu (among others).

 

Take it or leave it. I have no intention of changing my mind at the moment.

[pbajnokl]

 

Canderous never met Grand Admiral Thrawn, Nuso Esva, Gial Ackbar, Jan Dodonna, Gilad Pellaeon, Nek Bwua'tu, Wilhuff Tarkin, Darth Vader, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and so on.

 

Said quote can only apply to the military leaders up to Revan, as Canderous never met the future tacticians.

 

I feel like your statement is the future jedi/republic have better generals/planners/tacticians then in the past... (I understand that u liked the Thrawn series and I can absolutely accept that) but this is just mere speculations, not to mention the only thing that needed for tacticians is intelligance/+their morale (and what they wanted to achieve)

 

- !and here I want to point to that if u planning a war with better weapons that does not makes u a better tactician. Just like u won't state that the spartians were weaker and or stupider in tactics than the US military army... or do u?-

 

and maybe even obi-wan was a better tactician than thrawn but he wound't make a decision like him because kenobi was a jedi... so "some1 is a better tactician in the future is nothing like the future jedi/sith is stronger than the past " for example:what do u think obi-wan would have done those decisions what revan made to win the war against the mandalorians? What I wanted to say is not for just the Revan vs anyone threads here. It's for the tacticians (especialy for the thrawn vs threads)thinking is not a force ability what was better through time but a talent more like. so u can say that Thrawn was better talented in thinking then revan or obi-wan or any otherman in the galaxy... but its still just a speculations since they never fougth under the same circumstances.

 

what do u think da vinci was smarter or a stupid******** compared to the present time of teachers or enginers?

Edited June 8, 2013 by pbajnokl

[Aurbere]

I feel like your statement is the future jedi/republic have better generals/planners/tacticians then in the past... (I understand that u liked the Thrawn series and I can absolutely accept that) but this is just mare speculations, not to mention the only thing that needed for tacticians is intelligance/+their morale (and what they wanted to achieve)

 

- !and here I want to point to that if u planning a war with better weapons that does not makes u a better tactician. Just like u won't state that the spartians were weaker and or stupider in tactics than the US military army... or do u?-

 

and maybe even obi-wan was a better tactician than thrawn but he wound't make a decision like him because kenobi was a jedi... so "some1 is a better tactician in the future is nothing like the future jedi/sith is stronger than the past " for example:what do u think obi-wan would have done those decisions what revan made to win the war against the mandalorians? What I wanted to say is not for just the Revan vs anyone threads here. It's for the tacticians (especialy for the thrawn vs threads)thinking is not a force ability what was better through time but a talent more like. so u can say that Thrawn was better talented in thinking then revan or obi-wan or any otherman in the galaxy... but its still just a speculations since they never fougth under the same circumstances.

 

what do u think da vinci was smarter or a stupid******** compared to the present time of teachers or enginers?

 

Taking what I said a bit far, don't you think? It just happened that all those named were from a time after Revan. I have ironclad justification for each one being equal to, or greater than, Revan.

 

I think you're just trying to rustle my jimmies. It's not working.

[Beniboybling]

Alright Beni, I'm not going to respond to your whole post, but I think you are mistaking my intention here. Even though I said that I was done, I just want to make myself clear.

 

I have never said that Revan is a mediocre tactician. I have said that he is more than competent. As in, he is a great tactician. But there is a fine line between being great and being a genius. You may think he is a genius, but when you compare him to the other geniuses, he doesn't make it.

 

So final words, Revan's a great tactician, but he is not on the same level as Thrawn, Nuso Esva, Garm Bel Iblis, and Nek Bwua'tu (among others).

 

Take it or leave it. I have no intention of changing my mind at the moment.

Without meaning any offense, its you not me who are mistaking intentions. Do a quick control-find on 'mediocre' and you'll find no mention the word, do a quick control-find on 'competent' and the results will be different. Scour my posts for the word 'tactical genius' and you'll find I make no mention of it in reference to my own opinions. I don't believe Revan is a tactical genius, Thrawn is a tactical genius. Nor do I believe he is simply a 'great tactician', Saul Karath is a great tactician, Cassus Fett is a great tactician, yet Revan did what Karath could not, and bested Fett on his own terms.

 

Revan is an excellent tactician. He has a keen tactical mind, his strategies were flawless, his prowess unmatched by any other of his time, he led the Republic to victory over victory against the Mandalorians and his strategic aptitude led him to convert rather than conquer a third of the galaxy within a few years. These are not my opinions, these are the facts.

 

You will change your mind, eventually...

Edited June 8, 2013 by Beniboybling