How is Revan godlike?

[Beniboybling]

No idea. The fact is that the odds were set in his favor by a huge amount, and it would have taken more than two years for him to finally defeat the Republic.

 

And don't say the Republic was stronger than I think. Because they weren't.

We're forgetting what Revan's intentions were. Lets remember that soon after returning from the galaxy Revan broke free from the Emperor's control. But of course he was still corrupted by the dark side. However his aims of conquest from that point on were not to destroy the Republic for the coming of the New Sith Empire, but to make the Republic stronger. He wanted to reforge the entire Republic to make it powerful enough to challenge the Sith threat lurking in the Unknown Regions. And I see it as a testament to his tactical ability that he was able to effectively convert and assimilate the Republic into an Empire through conquest. A lesser tactician would have... well I turn your attention to the Great Sith War and the fumbling tactics of Mandalore, Ulic and Exar Kun.

 

If Revan was not impressive, well they were a pathetic embarrassment to their orders.

Revan also had his own generals like Alek, Surik, and Karath that gained the majority of his victories during the Mandalorian Wars. The only thing I will credit him with is the Malachor trap. Simply using someone else's tactics isn't good enough for me.

If that were the case, then why was it that Revan turned the tide of the war? If Karath and other Republic generals were truly the driving force behind the war. Then why was it that they could not do in 13 years what Revan did in 3? Are we to attribute the successes of the conflict the the brutish tactics of Malak? Whose tactical ineptitude was made plain in KOTOR and KOTOR II? Or are we to assume that General Surik was responsible? Of which the only known battle she participated in was the battle of Dxun? I think it would be illogical to do so.

 

The fact is that before Revan joined the war the tactics of the supposedly skilled Republic generals were not working, then Revan came along a developed a new tactic, fight fire with fire. Like it or not this was an improvement on the previous tactic, and if it wasn't all that great why was it that the Republic generals failed to use it? Are we now to assume that they too, are pathetic excuses for tacticians?

 

And finally, if Revan's tactics were not all that impressive, surely the great tactical minds that are Mandalore the Ultimate and Cassus Fett - who had already bested the likes of Karath and other Republic generals, would be able to counter them? The fact is that Revan, a superior tactican, simply bested them.

 

But really, what evidence do we have to support that Revan copied the tactics of the Mandalorians piece for piece? If that were truly the case, the Mandalorians would have recognised the tactics and recognised the weakness and easily bested them. But they did not. I believe that the only way in which Revan 'copied' the Mandalorians was by being ruthless and cold. Other than that we can assume his tactics were his own. I mean are we really to assume that every movement, every decision, was copied out of A Mandalorian Hand-Guide to Tactics and Battle Strategy? I'd think not.

 

Nonetheless there are plenty of canonical sources that support this argument:

 

Revan's keen tactical abilities completely turned the Republic's war effort around...

 

...Though Revan's tactics were flawless and Malak's righteous fury was unmatched, the pair slowly began to mirror the callous Mandalorians they were fighting.[2][6][32]

 

Revan and Malak led the Republic to victory after victory. They pushed the Mandalorians back to Taris, off Dxun and Onderon, and back into Mandalorian space.

 

Pursuing the roving Mandalorian fleets, Revan and Malak ventured into the Unknown Regions beyond the Republic's borders. In an effort to draw their enemies out, their forces assaulted the Mandalorian regime on Althir, and in the resulting battle, much of the remaining Mandalorian ground forces were decimated.[1]

 

Fighting alongside the Republic Military, he proved himself to be a brilliant military strategist, and he was eventually given direct command over a third of the Republic fleet.[5]

 

Once again, Revan revealed his tactical prowess as he led his nascent Sith Empire to victory after victory against the Republic, but Darth Revan's reign would ultimately be cut short by the ambitions of his apprentice.[2][6][5]

 

I challenge you to find a single statement that points to Revan's ineptitude as a tactician, how the war was won not by Revan but by his underlings.

 

And that's without taking into account the fact that 'The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.' Throughout the conflict Revan purposefully corrupted his forces with Sith teachings. He corrupted every member of the Revanchist movement. And he would have done the same to the Republic if not betrayed. Indeed I can assure you that if Revan conquered the Republic, he would have had the support of the galaxy. If that doesn't point to an incredibly astute tactical mind then I don't know what does.

[TalonVII]

Guess that makes Palpatine a tactical genius as well.

 

 

 

That's what I would do.

 

Well need I point out order 66 and the use of the Clone wars to whittle down then destroy the jedi? Pretty good strategy right there if you ask me.

[Beniboybling]

One of the most powerful Jedi of his time due to his ability to stand before the Sith Emperor and not get immediately WTFpwned. I would just like to point out that I said "one of the best." There are more powerful Jedi in that era than Revan.

Well... Exar Kun, Thon, the Sith Emperor. The list effectively ends there and only one of them is a Jedi. You could raise me Nomi Sunrider but then I'd raise you Meetra Surik and we'd both look at Drew which a questioning stare.

A more than capable tactician. He was able to defeat the Mandalorians, but I don't give him props for the Jedi Civil War.

Curious. As I would say his tactical ability was more evident during the Jedi Civil War. However as a better tactician than Saul Karath, Cassus Fett and Mandalore the Ultimate (and why not throw Ulic and Kun in there) I'd say an exceptional tactician and nothing less. Edited June 7, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

He wouldn't have been alive by the time the Sith returned, but if his successors kept Revan's Empire alive, then the odds would be stacked in their favor, especially if Revan told people about the Sith.

 

I mean, they had the Star Forge. Probably would have had the Foundry too.

He would have, because Revan would not have been in the position to manipulate the mind of one of the most powerful mind manipulators that ever lived, preventing him from attacking earlier. I think we are forgetting just how impressive that is.

 

Nonetheless we are forgetting that Revan was corrupted, he wasn't about to go back to being a Jedi and make up with the Republic whom he believed to be inherently weak.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Well... Exar Kun, Thon, the Sith Emperor. The list effectively ends there and only one of them is a Jedi. You could raise me Nomi Sunrider but then I'd raise you Meetra Surik and we'd both look at Drew which a questioning stare.

 

I would raise Nomi Sunrider and the Jedi Exile, but the Exile is Meetra Surik so I won't. I will say that you should add Odan-Urr and Arca Jeth to that list. True masters of the Force.

 

Curious. As I would say his tactical ability was more evident during the Jedi Civil War. However as a better tactician than Saul Karath, Cassus Fett and Mandalore the Ultimate (and why not throw Ulic and Kun in there) I'd say an exceptional tactician and nothing less.

 

I only say Mandalorian Wars because I haven't seen much regarding tactical prowess from him during the JCW. Props for his overall strategy, but I haven't seen much regarding battle tactics.

 

I'd be more than willing to accept him as a great tactician, but the evidence isn't there for me. This is the same with Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord. They are believed to be some of the most powerful Sith, but the evidence is scarce.

 

As it stands, Revan is more than capable to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Aurbere

[Aurbere]

He would have, because Revan would not have been in the position to manipulate the mind of one of the most powerful mind manipulators that ever lived, preventing him from attacking earlier. I think we are forgetting just how impressive that is.

 

Nonetheless we are forgetting that Revan was corrupted, he wasn't about to go back to being a Jedi and make up with the Republic whom he believed to be inherently weak.

 

You forget that Meetra Surik was supporting him. Also Revan states that the link between him and the Emperor went two ways. Impressive? Yes, but he needed Surik's help in order to last that long mentally. But then look what happened.

[TalonVII]

I.

 

As it stands, Revan is more than capable to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Hey I'll take that and be happy about it

[pbajnokl]

As I read this post, I thougth about how many fanboys are reading this and how many of them will think that revan is/isn't a demigod. Those who are here and read this obviosly don't think that Revan is a god but a great Jedi/Sith of his time (and after, since his legacy obviously ends with Sidious death) but for the Revan haters (such as Aurbere) to accept him a great jedi/sith is not enough. They want to strip off of his achivements whats are clear and loud in - some opinion poorly written... but still canon - books and in histoy videos such as

(if u listen to what the video said the republic loosing to a mandalorian army who holding back... )

 

Now if I remember correctly Revan was the strongest Jedi in his time no1 else was... the closest jedi in power to him was meetra and malak/alek but dont forget that she was stronger only in game mechanics ... what u are all says its unreliable and revan as a sith lord dont have the chance to figth with the betrayal that time, even sidious died by the same betrayal on the deathstar (at least in GL story and I only accept that untile Episode7... if that isn't change the EU god luke/and palpi then i can't help but to accept it). Sion was clearly weaker than him since he was the one who joined to Revan and not the opposite (and don't tell me he is unkillable... even darth tyranus died when his head fell off and if u ask aurbere who was the stronger sion or tyranus... well my bet on tyranus) Don't forget that Meetra beated Nihilus with the mandalore's AND Visas Marr's help who weakend Nihilus trhough their force connection.

 

And there is Kreia... well I can't say she is weaker then revan but obviosly not stronger than revan reborn, and if u speak with her and asks than she would have joined to him she says yes. So again if some1 like revan could have manage the "stronger sith in the Kotor2" to join him while he is weaker, is amazing. And if u ask me Revan strength wasn't in the force (in what he was obviously strong) but his personality and charm with he can make others to follow him -what NOT only Kreia but Malak and Meetra too says- be good (jedi) or bad (jedi who turned to sith just because of him) or weak/strong he could (have)manage unity (what only sidious could manage with a trick and position/power and not because of his personality) and that is his true strength. !Power in numbers!

 

I'm not a Revan fan... I am a Darth Revan fan! see the difference.

[Aurbere]

(such as Aurbere)

 

I'll never be able to shake that repuatation, will I?

[Aurbere]

Personally, OP, I'm in the same boat as you. I have no idea what makes Revan so special. He's not really unique. Sure he looks cool, but as a character, he's not that special. Then again, that can be said about most characters.

 

I guess I don't see it. I like Revan as much as the next guy, but I don't see why people overinflate him to something that he's not.

[teclado]

No you are not. I believe KOTOR 2 is a much better game than its predecessor. Better gameplay, better story, and better characters.

If by "better story" you mean worse story in every way, shape, and form, then I agree with you.

 

KOTOR II was a good game, but it had too many loose ends and unfinished pieces. It was rushed, basically. KOTOR the original was complete, gripping, and awesome to the end. KOTOR II just rode on the coattails of the original.

 

The story of Revan is significantly better than any of the stories of SW episodes I - VI. I wish there was a movie on it.

 

I think most people just get upset that a character with such a powerful history could be dispatched so trivially.

[Wolfninjajedi]

The story of Revan is significantly better than any of the stories of SW episodes I - VI.

 

What?...O_o

Edited June 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

If by "better story" you mean worse story in every way, shape, and form, then I agree with you.

 

KOTOR II was a good game, but it had too many loose ends and unfinished pieces. It was rushed, basically. KOTOR the original was complete, gripping, and awesome to the end. KOTOR II just rode on the coattails of the original.

 

The story of Revan is significantly better than any of the stories of SW episodes I - VI. I wish there was a movie on it.

 

I think most people just get upset that a character with such a powerful history could be dispatched so trivially.

 

Well that's your opinion. I personally prefer the story of KOTOR 2. Higher stakes, mysterious characters, and a new way to look at things provided to you by the plot's manipulator Darth Traya.

 

KOTOR, on the other hand, is a story of lost identity and an epic war. It has you see the Jedi in a different light. KOTOR 2 does all of these story elements better, in my opinion.

 

But this really is just subjective, as is all entertainment.

[TalonVII]

Well that's your opinion. I personally prefer the story of KOTOR 2. Higher stakes, mysterious characters, and a new way to look at things provided to you by the plot's manipulator Darth Traya.

 

KOTOR, on the other hand, is a story of lost identity and an epic war. It has you see the Jedi in a different light. KOTOR 2 does all of these story elements better, in my opinion.

 

But this really is just subjective, as is all entertainment.

 

Well Aurbere, while KOTORII had a a better engine and story, the story was left incomplete. Especially at the end. You go through all this story about the EXILE and her ties to the force then at the end battle you simply get, "there is nothing, there is just you?"

 

It's like they were building up that you have these ties to the force then they just leave the explanation empty and hollow. Don't get me wrong loved the game, but the guy above you is right. They didn't finish the game or the story. They just wanted to ride the explosive success that was KOTOR and get it out as fast as possible.

[Aurbere]

Well Aurbere, while KOTORII had a a better engine and story, the story was left incomplete. Especially at the end. You go through all this story about the EXILE and her ties to the force then at the end battle you simply get, "there is nothing, there is just you?"

 

It's like they were building up that you have these ties to the force then they just leave the explanation empty and hollow. Don't get me wrong loved the game, but the guy above you is right. They didn't finish the game or the story. They just wanted to ride the explosive success that was KOTOR and get it out as fast as possible.

 

Lucasarts rushed it. Obsidian had to cut a ton of content to meet the demands. KOTOR was the more complete game. Aside from the ending, the rest of KOTOR 2 was great, despite the missed content.

[Jandi]

Well Aurbere, while KOTORII had a a better engine and story, the story was left incomplete. Especially at the end. You go through all this story about the EXILE and her ties to the force then at the end battle you simply get, "there is nothing, there is just you?"

 

This is exactly why so many dislike the game. They don't"get it". The story requires the player to actually pay attention, you obviously didn't and thus never understood the point the writers were getting at.

 

You should play it through once as full light, once as full dark and then once again as something in between. Preferably as female at least once to get the Disciples dialogue. Most importantly, actually CONSIDER what Kreia is and is not saying and how other things fit into everything else. That's the only real way to get the proper picture.

 

First of all, Kreia was not evil at any point. She didn't want to "end the Force". Atriss is the only one doing the falling. The Jedi masters would have doomed the Republic if their teachings would have survived. The "Echo" that's mentioned to touch the planets is caused by the Sith in TORs time, not her. Almost everything Kreia says and does is to make the Exile realize things on their own rather than to just tell them. Every planet you visit is a lesson in why NOT to rely on anything except yourself, not even the Force and Nihilus is what the Exile would become if they don't control the special anomaly in the force which was present long before Malachor V.

 

Everything Kreia does is to prepare you to face the same thing Revan went to face. The real Sith empire we are currently having in TOR or rather, the Emperor because against the Emperor nothing, not even the force, could be relied upon. Kreias only goal was to prevent the Sith, the real Sith we currently have in TOR, from winning.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Jandi

[mefit]

Obsidian did what obsidian always does , take a game already made and build off if it ! Between KotoRII and Vegas that is the only 2 games they made that got Game of the Year .... Go figure ! Both games are good as sequels are suppose to be .

 

Obsidian had a deadline in their contract to make KotOR II , they could not meet that contract ! The game was pretty much a barely updated version of KotoR .

 

KotoR II even gave you the lost identity feeling at the beginning ...... Copy much ?

KotoR II was a good game and has things in it I like better than in 1 but that's how it is suppose to be .....

 

LA did not break their contract , they just refused to extend it beyond the already agreed deadline . Must be wonderful living in ignorance .

 

 

Will give obsidian one thing above all , they made sure the Exile was cannoned with stats and skills while bioware did not with revan !

I simply like both games and think this comparing the. Like rivals is stupid and does nothing for the series !

 

I own them both on pc and am current replaying them !

 

Edited June 8, 2013 by mefit

[Simbr]

Because he is us, all of us in KOTOR and then in KOTOR 2 he is talked up like a mofo. KOTOR was such a great game, best rpg of its time, so he is a very revered character. A bit like Shepard in ME, (obviously Shepard would kick Revan's arse but thats another thread)

 

In the lore Revan dominated his time period (republic side at least) lbut not a god, only a man or women depending your preference lol (yes I know canon says male, canon also says midichlorians)

[Wolfninjajedi]

Edit: Meh..nvrm shall let this go on. Edited June 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[TalonVII]

This is exactly why so many dislike the game. They don't"get it". The story requires the player to actually pay attention, you obviously didn't and thus never understood the point the writers were getting at.

 

You should play it through once as full light, once as full dark and then once again as something in between. Preferably as female at least once to get the Disciples dialogue. Most importantly, actually CONSIDER what Kreia is and is not saying and how other things fit into everything else. That's the only real way to get the proper picture.

 

First of all, Kreia was not evil at any point. She didn't want to "end the Force". Atriss is the only one doing the falling. The Jedi masters would have doomed the Republic if their teachings would have survived. The "Echo" that's mentioned to touch the planets is caused by the Sith in TORs time, not her. Almost everything Kreia says and does is to make the Exile realize things on their own rather than to just tell them. Every planet you visit is a lesson in why NOT to rely on anything except yourself, not even the Force and Nihilus is what the Exile would become if they don't control the special anomaly in the force which was present long before Malachor V.

 

Everything Kreia does is to prepare you to face the same thing Revan went to face. The real Sith empire we are currently having in TOR or rather, the Emperor because against the Emperor nothing, not even the force, could be relied upon. Kreias only goal was to prevent the Sith, the real Sith we currently have in TOR, from winning.

 

Oh trust me I must of played it atleast 100 times throughout the years. I think i played it about every which way but loose.

 

And no I don't think think Kreia's plan was to stop the Sith Empire. I don't think she gave two craps about it. She HATED the force. She simply wanted it to stop toying with people's lives, to be free of the force. What she didin't realize that it was impossible to do without killing all life.

 

Though I guess it COULD be argued she wanted to bring around the end of the force to stop the Emperor from consuming all through the force.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Oh trust me I must of played it atleast 100 times throughout the years. I think i played it about every which way but loose.

 

And no I don't think think Kreia's plan was to stop the Sith Empire. I don't think she gave two craps about it. She HATED the force. She simply wanted it to stop toying with people's lives, to be free of the force. What she didin't realize that it was impossible to do without killing all life.

 

Though I guess it COULD be argued she wanted to bring around the end of the force to stop the Emperor from consuming all through the force.

 

Ya know thinking on it, Kreia's plan just seems rather like a fantasy rather then a reality in terms of actually going to work. Cause killing The Force? Really? Seems rather far fetched, because I'm not sure she would be able to stop the omipotent beings(The Ones/Celestials etc) who are...well pretty much above any mortal being obviously. But then I guess it worked itself out, seeing the Exile stopped it so...I guess The Force did have a hand in keeping itself safe.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Fantazm]

well they're both fictional characters!

 

and kotor 2 would have been better than the first one had it been finished.

[Beniboybling]

Ya know thinking on it, Kreia's plan just seems rather like a fantasy rather then a reality in terms of actually going to work. Cause killing The Force? Really? Seems rather far fetched, because I'm not sure she would be able to stop the omipotent beings(The Ones/Celestials etc) who are...well pretty much above any mortal being obviously. But then I guess it worked itself out, seeing the Exile stopped it so...I guess The Force did have a hand in keeping itself safe.

It's a common misconception that Traya wanted to kill the Force, which tends to come about from a misinterpretation of the facts and a failure to see the bigger picture. However it is not the case, otherwise she would have just let Nihilus get on with creating wounds in the Force and eventually the Force would have died.

 

Now it is likely that as Darth Traya, prior to her betrayal, Kreia did want to destroy the Force which is likely why she set in motion the actions of Sion and Nihilus. However, and I can't stress this enough, Kreia underwent redemption. She realised what she was doing was wrong and instead attempted to prevent it and at the same time make a better future for the galaxy as a whole.

 

“Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose.”

 

Training the Exile, was her way of doing this. And when the Exile pasted her final test, defeating her master and severing the bond between them, Kreia hoped that she would go on to make a better galaxy. One with the Force but one where people are more able to be free of it. And most importantly, one of peace. People don't seem the realise how good Kreia's intentions actually were, if she had had her way, they would be no war. And for that reason I believe she did want to stop the coming of the Sith Empire.

 

But anyway, if you want to read my full insights on here intentions. I strongly suggest you my Revisiting An in-depth look at: Kreia. I think when people play KOTOR II they don't actually pay close attention to everything Kreia is saying and miss half of the picture. If you pay attention, you'll really find an extraordinarily different picture of who Kreia is.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Just stumbled upon a quote from our good friend Canderous Ordo:

 

'Revan was one of the greatest military leaders in the galaxy, in history. He knew what he was doing.'

 

Just saying...

[Jandi]

Oh trust me I must of played it atleast 100 times throughout the years. I think i played it about every which way but loose.

 

And no I don't think think Kreia's plan was to stop the Sith Empire. I don't think she gave two craps about it. She HATED the force. She simply wanted it to stop toying with people's lives, to be free of the force. What she didin't realize that it was impossible to do without killing all life.

 

Though I guess it COULD be argued she wanted to bring around the end of the force to stop the Emperor from consuming all through the force.

 

Then you failed to pay attention. That "killing the force" thing was a lie, an ultimatum strong enough to FORCE you to kill her, leave you no choice but to sever your tie with her. She gets enraged when you try to show her mercy because that would mean she has failed as a teacher.

 

Her "turning" at the end was a final lesson for the Exile to understand that betrayal can come from anyone, even your teachers and that you should not show mercy, even to her.

 

Thanks for proving my point about why people dislike the game though.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Jandi