ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Kilora]

Bioware has stated that it considers the AC to be our class..

 

Please provide us with proof. As another poster has already provided evidence that they haven't ever said this. They consider ACs to be distinctly different -- but they never said class.

 

Although, in the end, it doesn't matter what you think, or what I think. If BW, as stated, is discussing implementing this -- they will make the choice and either put it in, or leave it out.

 

I'd just love a dev response that is black and white. *Yes* we have it on our list of to-implement. No, we don't plan on it. Either would be nice.

 

So far we've gotten -- "It will likely happen eventually" -- which is purposely vague.

[Truga]

AC? is optional already. and THAT's a fact.

Is it? Show me youtubes of level 50+ people finishing group content with no AC selected. If you find one, I'll concede it is actually optional.

 

That, however, does not change the fact that AC is your class. And changing classes doesn't happen in MMOs. It's bad for business, it's bad for the community health and it's bad for the game as a whole.

 

I have personally played two games, where you start as one or two classes. Novice in RO (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Novice), and Mystic/Warrior class in Lineage 2. All the classes branch out from the one class you are at the beginning and there are tons of classes. Yet, people didn't feel entitled to a class change, just because they spent the first 50 levels as the same class the other class had as prerequisite.

 

Why in the world would you even let a sentinel, for example, swap to a guardian? Even if he's in full operations gear, he's worse off than a fresh level 55 guardian, at least that dude is in blue heavy armour. All you have is a bunch of purple mediums, which probably give less armour than heavy blues. Arguably, this is less problematic with custom gear, but then who is going to pay tons of credits for swapping all his mods in and out of new gear every week when they decide they should swap AC again? Yeah, nobody.

 

Then, there's the fact that all AC combinations have very little in common. Scoundrel plays nothing like gunslinger, they're completely different. Shadow/Sage? Do these two have _anything_ in common? Commando/Vanguard might be close, I haven't played vanguard/powertech yet. And while sentinel and juggernaut seem similar at first glance, the difference is still gigantic. Do you really want people doing level 50+ flashpoints/heroics with you that have never played their class before? I sure don't.

 

And, finally, as has been stated here _many_ times in the past, Bioware themselves said AC is basically a class. Class changes should not happen. They have mentioned the possibility of AC change. Well, they have also mentioned the possibility of UI mods, never going f2p and other junk that will never come true.

 

Want a new class? Roll a new char, spend CC/creds for xp boosts to get it to cap faster. There are things that can be changed (I still think removing respec cost for subs was a mistake though) and there are things that can't. If you play casually, AC doesn't matter, the game is easy like that. If you don't play casually do some research before clicking that button (and then confirming the warning about OMG YOU CAN ONLY DO THIS ONCE!). At least read the in-game description provided before clicking. Or, if you're too lazy to read, reroll. Like they say, haste makes waste.

[Kilora]

That, however, does not change the fact that AC is your class. And changing classes doesn't happen in MMOs. It's bad for business, it's bad for the community health and it's bad for the game as a whole.

 

Do you have proof that this is bad for business and/or bad for community health and/or bad for the game?

 

I have yet to see any proof whatsoever. And the argument "Oh, other games don't do that" isn't an argument.

[Hizoka]

I am DEAD serious. I'm not even going to debate why. I pay my subscription. I pay for my characters. Nobody should tell me how to play or what button to hit and when or what spec to play or OMG FOTM or PvE vs PVP or WHATEVER.

 

I don't think it's cool to try and dictate how other people play the game. If I'm in a group and someone keeps choosing need then I won't play with them anymore. That should be enough. It's not my place to tell them what to do. If I'm in a group filled with Juggernauts because they are FOTM then I will find another group. It's not my place to tell people what spec to play. Period.

 

Having an opinion is one thing, trying to dictate or bully people into playing the way you think is just wrong. See all of the examples I listed and linked in my post above?

yet you show your ignorance when you even signed the contract saying specifically they are not your characters your simply "rent" them. EA has 100% control over them. They can play them if they want tehy can delete all their gear if tehy want, and you agreed to let them do it.

[Jeweledleah]

no you really can't complete it... you will not have things like interrupts will make killing classes that heal impossible regardless of level. Also the gear sets are different and teh stats beyond the "primary" are needed in different amount.

 

By your simple minded logic Warriors DKs and Ret paladins of wow are all the same class because they use the exact same stats. See you trying to put a square peg in a round hole and say its a round peg. You are flat wrong. If you play a commando then play a vanguard you will see they are 100% different classes. Just because a mage and warlock use the same gear and same stats does not make them the same class.

 

you keep saying that you can't, and yet people have.

 

methinks you are projecting.

 

and I have played both commando and a vanguard. well... mercenary and vanguard, but other then animations, commando and merc are basically mirrors. sure it plays very differently. but so does affliction warlock, vs demonology warlock, versus destruction warlock (and yes, i played my warlock as all 3) and so does holy pally vs retribution pally vs protection pally (again, played all 3)

 

very VERY different. and yet warlock is STILL a warlock. troopers and bounty hunters also use identical stats, and yet you don't see me claiming that they are the same class. they ARE however mirror classes.

 

when you are logging in to your character in TOR. what does the login screen say while leveling? it doesn't say vanguard chapter 1, or commando chapter 1. it says TROOPER chapter 1. when you have "class quest" in your journal - it's the same for vanguard OR commando. the same class vendor sells gears for both AC's. your codex specifies entries about companions, stories, etc - as trooper. in your skill window you have 2 sections for your abilities. your advanced class? and you CLASS. your interrupts and your stuns? are class wide, not limited to advanced class. your crowd control can vary, but that also varies from class to class, for instance agents regardless of AC can slice droids.

 

last but not least its called "advanced" class. wording is pretty deliberate.

 

and yes, if we picked out advanced class at character creation this would probably be different. but we don't. the way the game is currently set up? advanced class is specialization, NOT a distinct class.

 

@ Truga. i have 14 characters. i have it covered. whether ac change happens or not, I won't be using it. its not about me.

 

moreover. I've been playing the secret world recently. and interesting thing is? it doesn't even have a rigid class at all. I can specialize in things, but the only real difference between my characters? is a chosen faction.

 

last but not least - rift and its Souls. now there's a build your own class, change the class any way you want mechanic for you.

 

other games are other games. this is TOR. just because some other game doesn't do something and yet other game does and yet another game doesn't even have restrictions at all... doesn't mean TOR MUST be just like that other game. so lets talk in TOR terms specifically. you know what? if I'm going to reply to this thread again, I'm going to ignore any further comparisons to other games, because THOSE are truly irrelevant.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Ottoattack]

I don't understand people who are against AC change. You don't like it don't use it. Its an additional option for people who want to use it. People who change their AC, have to deal with changing gear consequences.

 

The end.

[Hizoka]

you keep saying that you can't, and yet people have.

 

methinks you are projecting.

 

and I have played both commando and a vanguard. well... mercenary and vanguard, but other then animations, commando and merc are basically mirrors. sure it plays very differently. but so does affliction warlock, vs demonology warlock, versus destruction warlock (and yes, i played my warlock as all 3) and so does holy pally vs retribution pally vs protection pally (again, played all 3)

 

very VERY different. and yet warlock is STILL a warlock. troopers and bounty hunters also use identical stats, and yet you don't see me claiming that they are the same class. they ARE however mirror classes.

 

when you are logging in to your character in TOR. what does the login screen say while leveling? it doesn't say vanguard chapter 1, or commando chapter 1. it says TROOPER chapter 1. when you have "class quest" in your journal - it's the same for vanguard OR commando. the same class vendor sells gears for both AC's. your codex specifies entries about companions, stories, etc - as trooper. in your skill window you have 2 sections for your abilities. your advanced class? and you CLASS. your interrupts and your stuns? are class wide, not limited to advanced class. your crowd control can vary, but that also varies from class to class, for instance agents regardless of AC can slice droids.

 

last but not least its called "advanced" class. wording is pretty deliberate.

 

and yes, if we picked out advanced class at character creation this would probably be different. but we don't. the way the game is currently set up? advanced class is specialization, NOT a distinct class.

now you are comparing apples to oranges...

 

A pyro powertech plays just as differently from an AP powertech as a fury warriors plays from an arms warrior.

 

Demo and affliction are SPECs just like advanced proto type and pyrotech are specs. A merc is a ranged DPS a powertech is a melee DPS they are completely different. just because they use the same stats does not make them any more the same then a mage and a warlock.

[astrobearx]

Is it? Show me youtubes of level 50+ people finishing group content with no AC selected. If you find one, I'll concede it is actually optional.

 

.

 

trooper

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=574656

 

jedi

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=549229

 

and here is a agent

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=251639

 

 

nuff said

[Truga]

nuff said

 

Is it? Show me youtubes of level 50+ people finishing group content with no AC selected. If you find one, I'll concede it is actually optional.

 

Nuff said indeed. Thank you for showing you have problems with reading. Where are these characters completing hard mode flashpoints and ops?

[Kilora]

Nuff said indeed. Thank you for showing you have problems with reading. Where are these characters completing hard mode flashpoints and ops?

 

Why is that a requirement?

 

There are plenty of people who literally never do any group content. Seeing as how it isn't required. . . .

[Khevar]

I am DEAD serious. I'm not even going to debate why. I pay my subscription. I pay for my characters. Nobody should tell me how to play or what button to hit and when or what spec to play or OMG FOTM or PvE vs PVP or WHATEVER.

 

I don't think it's cool to try and dictate how other people play the game. If I'm in a group and someone keeps choosing need then I won't play with them anymore. That should be enough. It's not my place to tell them what to do. If I'm in a group filled with Juggernauts because they are FOTM then I will find another group. It's not my place to tell people what spec to play. Period.

 

Having an opinion is one thing, trying to dictate or bully people into playing the way you think is just wrong. See all of the examples I listed and linked in my post above?

I agree with you that it's uncool to dictate to people how to play the game.

 

On the other hand, don't you think there's room for a healthy discussion about things? A thread can devolve into both sides shouting at each other, OR it can be a discussion.

 

When you popped into the loot thread, your comments were one sentence lines like: "I always need for everything all the time"

 

This is your choice. Nobody should ever force you to do otherwise, or to dictate to your otherwise. BUT, such a choice (in an MMO) reduces what could be a great thing, which is cooperation with others to achieve goals in the game.

 

There are plenty of great single-player RPGs out there. For those, it really doesn't matter what you do, as your choices and decisions affect no one else. But an MMO is different. You are interacting with other people. Your choices, decisions and behavior DO affect others.

 

You say you've been a developer on an MMO, and an IT director in real life. This would seem to indicate that you've been around the block and have some experience. Don't you think that an MMO is made better when at atmosphere of cooperation exists? Otherwise, why not just play a single player game instead?

Edited June 19, 2013 by Khevar

[Truga]

Why is that a requirement?

 

There are plenty of people who literally never do any group content. Seeing as how it isn't required. . . .

 

Because in RO, I also had a level 90 novice. The character wasn't really good for anything other than killing weak and basic mobs. Throw anything harder at it and it dies. Same in lineage 2. Some people went to max level as basic classes, because they couldn't be bothered to do the class quests. They had less skills, were squishier and worthless in pvp and harder pve.

 

So yes, you can say AC is optional. So is going off of ord mantell. You can hit level 50 on ord mantell, even at level 49, each mob there will give you 1 XP per kill. Does that mean going off ord mantell is optional? Or does it just mean that other than for the challenge itself, not going off is bloody silly?

[Jeweledleah]

Because in RO, I also had a level 90 novice. The character wasn't really good for anything other than killing weak and basic mobs. Throw anything harder at it and it dies. Same in lineage 2. Some people went to max level as basic classes, because they couldn't be bothered to do the class quests. They had less skills, were squishier and worthless in pvp and harder pve.

 

So yes, you can say AC is optional. So is going off of ord mantell. You can hit level 50 on ord mantell, even at level 49, each mob there will give you 1 XP per kill. Does that mean going off ord mantell is optional? Or does it just mean that other than for the challenge itself, not going off is bloody silly?

 

whether its silly or not, is just your personal opinion.

the fact that its possible and doesn't involve cheating or exploits does in fact mean that its optional

[Truga]

whether its silly or not, is just your personal opinion.

the fact that its possible and doesn't involve cheating or exploits does in fact mean that its optional

 

Yes, I agree it's optional. Just like going off your starter planet is optional. Or using armour is optional. And so on.

 

But what that does have to do with the fact that once you change your class from trooper to commando, your class is no longer trooper, it's commando.

 

Frankly, I hope in the future they introduce more branches. Like, say, at level 60, commando branches into two or three more classes, all of which are again different and unique. They keep all the commando's skills, but specialize further in one area.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Truga

[Jeweledleah]

Yes, I agree it's optional. Just like going off your starter planet is optional. Or using armour is optional. And so on.

 

But what that does have to do with the fact that once you change your class from trooper to commando, your class is no longer trooper, it's commando.

 

Frankly, I hope in the future they introduce more branches. Like, say, at level 60, commando branches into two or three more classes, all of which are again different and unique. They keep all the commando's skills, but specialize further in one area.

 

not class. advanced class.

 

your loading screen is still calling you a trooper. your codex is still calling you a trooper. your advanced class is acknowledged by the game about as much as your talent tree, aka not at all.

 

advanced class cannot be changed. right now. it doesn't mean it cannot be changed ever or should not be changed ever.

it WOULD be fun if you could branch out. more choices and options are good. doesn't mean those choices and options MUST be permanent.

[Truga]

But they aren't permanent. Just reroll! Leveling is fast anyway.

[Hizoka]

not class. advanced class.

 

your loading screen is still calling you a trooper. your codex is still calling you a trooper. your advanced class is acknowledged by the game about as much as your talent tree, aka not at all.

 

advanced class cannot be changed. right now. it doesn't mean it cannot be changed ever or should not be changed ever.

it WOULD be fun if you could branch out. more choices and options are good. doesn't mean those choices and options MUST be permanent.

 

when you pick you advanced CLASS it says "This is permanent and cannot be changed"

 

why is that something you people cannot understand????

 

the devs have said your AC is your class they treat them as differetn classes. You do not ever see anyone in wow saying "i leveled a mage, so gimme a rogue at max level because i am too entitled and too lazy to level one myself" yet you self entitled people of SWTOR as asking that exact thing.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Hizoka

[Truga]

when you pick you advanced CLASS it says "This is permanent and cannot be changed"

Indeed, I just selected sorcerer in-game, this very moment. The dialog window says:

Are you sure you wish to select Sith Sorcerer?

 

This selection is final, you will not be able to change it later.

[Jeweledleah]

But they aren't permanent. Just reroll! Leveling is fast anyway.

 

not the point. and I did reroll. or did you miss when I said that I have 14 characters and its not about me?

 

some people are not altoholics.

 

some people have made a lot of progress on their character, progress that cannot be redone on a new character, because certain items that character has are not even in game anymore.

 

some people made a mistake, thinking they might enjoy something based on research, but reality didn't live up to the research - and they kept trying to enjoy it because their friends kept telling them that it gets better, but it never did, because personal preference! rerolling means losing all that progress, whether its credits, invested, just time or anything else - again. rerolling means that someone who might not enjoy playing the same story more than once - is faced with a choice of either having to do something that they don't enjoy, aka replay a story they have already seen, or give up completely.

 

and once again. the choice is permanent... right now. doesn't mean it HAS to remain permanent. its called advanced class. not THE class. advanced class. there's a room in game to change it. there's a potential that will not even cardinally change the game.

 

I'm also asked if I'm sure I want that particular talent every time I put another point into my talent tree. and yet, I have an option to change them later.

[Kilora]

when you pick you advanced CLASS it says "This is permanent and cannot be changed"

 

why is that something you people cannot understand????

 

the devs have said your AC is your class they treat them as differetn classes. You do not ever see anyone in wow saying "i leveled a mage, so gimme a rogue at max level because i am too entitled and too lazy to level one myself" yet you self entitled people of SWTOR as asking that exact thing.

 

Can you not understand that BW can change that? Things aren't ever set in stone, you get that, right???

 

Once again -- please show me where they said AC = class. They've literally never said that, in fact someone has already provided the proof to show they didn't say that.

 

And, this has nothing to do with WoW. This is not WoW. Nor is mage -> rogue equivalent to AC swaps. Mage -> warlock or mage -> priest would be closer analogies.

[LordArtemis]

My position is that people should play this game for fun. They should pay for their subscription (or Cartel Coins) and enjoy themselves.

 

Your position is that you should be in charge of dictating how everyone else plays the game. You (plural) are more preoccupied with what everyone else is doing than you are actually enjoying the game.

 

It is players like YOU who give gamers a bad name. You engage in endless debates over topics you have absolutely no control over. You're not paying my subscription. Don't tell me how to play. Period.

 

lol

 

I'm pretty sure that if I'm doing anything I'm not telling you what to do by discussing whether or not I wish to support this suggestion. I'm also fairly positive that you do not dictate what my position is. I am perfectly capable of indicating my own position and you are probably one of the LAST folks I would ask to help me determine that position if there ever was a time that I was confused about it.

 

...and I'm not. My position has been made clear many times. You choosing to ignore it because your in the mood for forum PVP does not change in any way, shape or form the actual fact of my opinion and where I stand.

 

How about this...you stop telling folks what they can and can't discuss and I will stop telling you how to play....eh?

 

How's that iceskating uphill working out for ya?

Edited June 19, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Anzel]

You say you've been a developer on an MMO, and an IT director in real life. This would seem to indicate that you've been around the block and have some experience. Don't you think that an MMO is made better when at atmosphere of cooperation exists? Otherwise, why not just play a single player game instead?

 

Let's not pretend that's what is happening here. Not even for one second. An "atmosphere of cooperation"? Really? I mean REALLY? That's what you see in threads like these?

[Asturias]

My position as many others who play is if class swaping happens (AC) I will hang it up for good. MMOs are losing there core values of what the genre was built on which is Trinity mechanics and character progression. This will also hurt low level players and new along with end game raiding and PvP.

[Khevar]

Let's not pretend that's what is happening here. Not even for one second. An "atmosphere of cooperation"? Really? I mean REALLY? That's what you see in threads like these?

I'm talking about the game itself, not the forums.

 

When you say things like "I always need on everything all the time", and "Don't ever tell me how to play", how does that make a great MMO? It's a viewpoint founded in self == everything, everyone else == who gives a s**t. From where I sit, that's what single-player games are for.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Khevar

[Jeweledleah]

My position as many others who play is if class swaping happens (AC) I will hang it up for good. MMOs are losing there core values of what the genre was built on which is Trinity mechanics and character progression. This will also hurt low level players and new along with end game raiding and PvP.

 

I thought MMO's were build on people playing together as a team? never mind that AC change doesn't remove trinity mechanics. you still have healers, tanks and dps - they just have just a tiny touch more freedom in switching between these 3 roles.

 

also, I would really love to hear exactly how, objectively, will AC change hurt low level players, raiding and pvp. because I can only see it bringing about improvement personally, by giving people more options and flexibility