ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Ratajack]

Plus no matter what is allowed or disallowed in the game, people will QQ. Thus "level of QQing" should never be a consideration regarding what changes to make (or not to make) to the game.

 

So, you agree that the devs should not make any decisions solely based on the numbers of all the QQ'ers in this thread who want to change their class. I'm glad to hear it.

[branmakmuffin]

And yet again, you are ignoring a basic fact. That changing from a vanguard to a commando is changing CLASS.

 

They may share the same story, but they are different classes.

And you keep saying that as if it should mean something other than "Yeah, so?" The fact that they share the same story is what makes it possible, as opposed to faction change.

 

So, you agree that the devs should not make any decisions solely based on the numbers of all the QQ'ers in this thread who want to change their class. I'm glad to hear it.

Exactly, The change should be made based on its potential to affect the game's economics in a positive way. If it truly would lead to legions of self-righteous cry-babies leaving the game, then it shouldn't be done. But that would never happen.

Edited June 11, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[MajikMyst]

And you keep saying that as if it should mean something other than "Yeah, so?" The fact that they share the same story is what makes it possible, as opposed to faction change.

 

 

Exactly, The change should be made based on its potential to affect the game's economics in a positive way. If it truly would lead to legions of self-righteous cry-babies leaving the game, then it shouldn't be done. But that would never happen.

 

Yeah So??? Sharing a story is irrelevant.. Every Blood Elf in WOW shared the same story regardless if they were a hunter or a mage..

 

Changing AC should not be in the game period.. Because of how it will effect balance.. As for you self righteous cry babies?? I am sure you will keep crying about it.. Because it is obvious you know nothing about the issue.. Especially since you are attempting to use economics as a means to justify class swapping.. Economics are irrelevant in this issue.. Changing your class should just not be allowed.. Period..

 

Bioware doesn't want a single class to be able to both heal and tank.. It would be bad for the game if that were allowed.. It would leave some classes at a disadvantage..

 

AC swapping is bad for the game.. If you are to lazy to make an alt.. Then don't.. But don't demand Bioware to change the game to accommodate your laziness..

Edited June 11, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Ratajack]

I'm basically in a similar boat. I currently have 14 characters. with a minimum of one per each advanced specs, some of the favorites - twice. leveling a new character is NOT an issue for me. and I don't see myself changing ac even if it gets implemented EVEN on my shadow (whom I'm thinking of maybe having another go, probably change her appearance completely and play her differently) but just because its not particularly useful for me is no reason to deny it to others.

 

yes we should be careful with a slippery slope, especially since bioware have shown themselves capable of going down that path, however... some things are simply not feasible (like changing from one story to the other, they can't/won't even implement gender change within the same story due to multitude of flags, changing stories is out of the question)

 

but the thing about advanced class is that for the most part - its pretty arbitrary. it changes your playstyle, but so does using a different skill tree. its technically a different class because it comes with different talents, but its the same story, the same basic class, using the same main stat and majority of the secondary stats (in fact - I'd have easier time switching from dps operative to sniper, then I would switching from dps operative to healing one - gearwise) and with exception of warriors/knights - same armor rating. even some of the same shared abilities (orbital strike and death from above being personal favorites)

 

so the only reason I'm pro limitations, including it not being available at max level is BECAUSE of possibility of a slippery slope. in my opinion at least, it should be about second chances, not min maxing and/or chasing FOTM

 

 

We already have restrictions in place regarding AC changes. It cannot be done. Each and every person is advised many times that their choice is permanent, and asked to confirm that the choice they are making is the one they want.

 

You want to change class but put limitations on it because of the possibility of a "slippery slope". The only real way to avoid the slippery slope is not to set foot on it. Allowing a player to change class even once would put them onto that slippery slope. The clamor would simply become "you let us do it once, why can't we change again, or whenever we want", "I made a mistake when I switched, I want to go back. Let me correct my mistake" or "My new Ac got nerfed, I want to go back to the one that got buffed".

 

All you need to do is to look at the numbers of people in this thread clamoring for the current restrictions to be lifted or made more flexible to understand this.

[branmakmuffin]

You want to change class but put limitations on it because of the possibility of a "slippery slope". The only real way to avoid the slippery slope is not to set foot on it. Allowing a player to change class even once would put them onto that slippery slope. The clamor would simply become "you let us do it once, why can't we change again, or whenever we want", "I made a mistake when I switched, I want to go back. Let me correct my mistake" or "My new Ac got nerfed, I want to go back to the one that got buffed".

Again, if that's how people want to spend their CCs, who cares? Why is it any of your business?

[Ratajack]

Exactly, The change should be made based on its potential to affect the game's economics in a positive way. If it truly would lead to legions of self-righteous cry-babies leaving the game, then it shouldn't be done. But that would never happen.

 

You are entitled to your opinion, name calling aside. I do not agree with it.

 

The players who want to be able to change their class, whether that be once, twice or at the drop of a hat, whenever they feel like changing class are still playing the game, so not allowing class changes is not reducing the current revenue for BW. If they choose to allow class changes, they may be able to see a quick influx of revenue, however brief. If they allow class changes, though, there will be people who will unsub and leave this game, as class changing is a major NO-NO among most MMO's. This loss of subs would reduce the ongoing revenue.

 

The question is will the quick influx of revenue be enough to offset the long term loss of revenue from the lost subs.

 

That does not even begin to factor in the outcry that will inevitably happen regarding cost if they allow class changes. I can almost guarantee that no matter what cost is set, it will be considered outrageous and too high by those clamoring for the ability to change class. Simply look at the outcry regarding server transfer costs, which are much more reasonable in this game than other MMO's.

[Ratajack]

Again, if that's how people want to spend their CCs, who cares? Why is it any of your business?

 

Allowing class changes affects everyone in the game, not just the people changing class. We have already been down this road and explained countless times exactly how other players are affected by someone changing class. Some people simply refuse to recognize this.

[branmakmuffin]

The players who want to be able to change their class, whether that be once, twice or at the drop of a hat, whenever they feel like changing class are still playing the game, so not allowing class changes is not reducing the current revenue for BW. If they choose to allow class changes, they may be able to see a quick influx of revenue, however brief. If they allow class changes, though, there will be people who will unsub and leave this game, as class changing is a major NO-NO among most MMO's.

Who wrote that rule? You. This ain't the "good" ol' days of EQ any more. The only people who care are the people who care. And the only reason they care is because they think it's "supposed" to be a major no-no. It has no impact on anyone else. The reasons some are opposed to it are grounded in some ill-conceived, erroneous belief that it promotes laziness or something similar to that. The whole point of a game is to have fun, If someone's idea of having fun in TOR is paying 100s of CCs to swap Advanced Classes, that's none of your business. They don't pay for or play the game for you to have fun, they pay for and play the game so that they can have fun.

 

That does not even begin to factor in the outcry that will inevitably happen regarding cost if they allow class changes. I can almost guarantee that no matter what cost is set, it will be considered outrageous and too high by those clamoring for the ability to change class.

Unless it's free or nearly so (which we both know it won't be) there will be the vociferous minority whining on the forums. Meanwhile, the majority of those who want to take advantage of it will simply do it and go on about their business, as is the case with everything BWEA charges CC for.

Edited June 11, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Ratajack]

Who wrote that rule? You. This ain't the "good" ol' days of EQ any more. The only people who care are the people who care. And the only reason they care is because they think it's "supposed" to be a major no-no. It has no impact on anyone else. The reasons some are opposed to it are grounded in some ill-conceived, erroneous belief that it promotes laziness or something similar to that. The whole point of a game is to have fun, If someone's idea of having fun in TOR is paying 100s of CCs to swap Advanced Classes, that's none of your business. They don't pay for or play the game for you to have fun, they pay for and play the game so that they can have fun.

 

I'm guessing that the rule about class changing being a major NO-NO in most MMO's is one of those unwritten rules followed by most MMO's as I have never played any MMO that allowed class changes. I have played many MMO's where players wanted to be able to change class because they were too lazy to actually put the modicum of time and effort into actually leveling that new class, but not one of those MMO's caved and allowed class changes.

 

We have already explained that allowing class changes affects EVERY PLAYER, not just those that wish to change class. Go back and reread this thread for examples if you need them. So don't go on about it having no impact on everyone else.

 

You want to go on about how those opposed to class changes have no business being concerned about someone who wants a free max level character of an entirely different class handed to them for no effort if that's how that person wants to enjoy the game. What about the rights of those opposed to class changes? Do we not have to right to enjoy the game in the manner we enjoy? What if I enjoy running pugs and not having to worry about being grouped with a tank who until 5 minutes ago was a healer? Don't I get to play the game my way?

 

Unless it's free or nearly so (which we both know it won't be) there will be the vociferous minority whining on the forums. Meanwhile, the majority of those who want to take advantage of it will simply do it and go on about their business, as is the case with everything BWEA charges CC for.

 

You mean like the minority here clamoring for a PERMANENT choice to be lifted, clamoring for the ability to change their class?

[branmakmuffin]

I'm guessing that the rule about class changing being a major NO-NO in most MMO's is one of those unwritten rules followed by most MMO's as I have never played any MMO that allowed class changes.

In what other MMOs would it be as seamless as it would be in TOR?

 

I have played many MMO's where players wanted to be able to change class because they were too lazy

Ooooooo, there we go! "Lazy."

 

We have already explained that allowing class changes affects EVERY PLAYER, not just those that wish to change class. Go back and reread this thread for examples if you need them. So don't go on about it having no impact on everyone else.

No, you have explained how you claim it affects others.

 

You want to go on about how those opposed to class changes have no business being concerned about someone who wants a free max level character of an entirely different class handed to them for no effort if that's how that person wants to enjoy the game. What about the rights of those opposed to class changes? Do we not have to right to enjoy the game in the manner we enjoy?

Yes. Therefore no one is going to force you to change your characters' ACs, should it become possible.

 

What if I enjoy running pugs and not having to worry about being grouped with a tank who until 5 minutes ago was a healer? Don't I get to play the game my way?

You sure do. You also don't get to tell others to play your way (well, you can try). Again, others pay and play so they can have, not so you can have fun.

 

You mean like the minority here clamoring for a PERMANENT choice to be lifted, clamoring for the ability to change their class?

If it were changed, it wouldn't be permanent, would it?

[Ratajack]

In what other MMOs would it be as seamless as it would be in TOR?

 

It wouldn't be seamless in this game, either.

 

 

Ooooooo, there we go! "Lazy."

 

Yep. If the shoe fits...

 

 

No, you have explained how you claim it affects others.

 

No, we have explained exactly how it would affect every player in the game. You simply refuse to acknowledge that because it doesn't fit in with what you want.

 

 

Yes. Therefore no one is going to force you to change your characters' ACs, should it become possible.

 

Correct, but you are asking to be able to force me to play with players who do, despite the fact that I would not find that fun.

 

You sure do. You also don't get to tell others to play your way (well, you can try). Again, others pay and play so they can have, not so you can have fun.

 

But it is ok for you to tell me I have to play your way?

 

 

If it were changed, it wouldn't be permanent, would it?

 

That is exactly the point. You were advised BEFORE you made the choice and advised many times that the choice was PERMANENT, and yet here you are asking for a new class for no effort.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Ratajack

[PeterTLJr]

We are going off track again here guys, lets stop taking others opinions so personal, its simple if you dont like the idea say why, if you like the idea say why, no need to start flaming others for their opinion. If you have a valid argument to make, make it.

[Ratajack]

We are going off track again here guys, lets stop taking others opinions so personal, its simple if you dont like the idea say why, if you like the idea say why, no need to start flaming others for their opinion. If you have a valid argument to make, make it.

 

Do you mean like those opposed to class changing have been doing for over 80 pages? If you want to see the logical, well thought out, reasonably presented arguments and the valid concerns, simply go back and read this thread from the beginning.

[PeterTLJr]

Do you mean like those opposed to class changing have been doing for over 80 pages? If you want to see the logical, well thought out, reasonably presented arguments and the valid concerns, simply go back and read this thread from the beginning.

 

I have and trust me, i've seen your name in just about every page. And to me, you dont make any good arguments. You just simply tell people they are wrong then pick a fight with them.

[PeterTLJr]

Yeah So??? Sharing a story is irrelevant.. Every Blood Elf in WOW shared the same story regardless if they were a hunter or a mage..

 

Changing AC should not be in the game period.. Because of how it will effect balance.. As for you self righteous cry babies?? I am sure you will keep crying about it.. Because it is obvious you know nothing about the issue.. Especially since you are attempting to use economics as a means to justify class swapping.. Economics are irrelevant in this issue.. Changing your class should just not be allowed.. Period..

 

Bioware doesn't want a single class to be able to both heal and tank.. It would be bad for the game if that were allowed.. It would leave some classes at a disadvantage..

 

AC swapping is bad for the game.. If you are to lazy to make an alt.. Then don't.. But don't demand Bioware to change the game to accommodate your laziness..

 

Thats talking about Race though, any race that picks trooper, goes through the same trooper story line, same as in WoW. and in WoW there are specific class stories just because there is no hard driven story questline doesnt mean there isnt a story.

 

And again, its not changing classes, its AC changing. If wow were to call you a Retribution for the class after you specd into it as a paladin, would you no longer be the paladin? yes you would be, same thing here.

[branmakmuffin]

It wouldn't be seamless in this game, either.

It would be seamless.

 

No, we have explained exactly how it would affect every player in the game. You simply refuse to acknowledge that because it doesn't fit in with what you want.

You can say you have presented objective reasons all you want. All you have presented is claims of how it would affect others.

 

Correct, but you are asking to be able to force me to play with players who do, despite the fact that I would not find that fun.

No one can force you to play with anyone. Perhaps we are getting to the root of your issue.

 

But it is ok for you to tell me I have to play your way?

Nope. And no one's going to do that. The only way anyone could force you to play other than the way you want, in terms of AC changes, would be if you were forced to change your characters' ACs. That notion is ludicrous on its face.

 

That is exactly the point. You were advised BEFORE you made the choice and advised many times that the choice was PERMANENT, and yet here you are asking for a new class for no effort.

And if they changed it, it would no longer be permanent. No question that it's permanent now. But that's irrelevant regarding whether or not a change should be made. That's like saying "They can't raise the speed limit on this street to 35 MPH. The speed limit on this street has always been 25 MPH."

 

And I'm not asking for anything. I wouldn't change any of my characters' ACs unless it were free, and we all know it would not be free. I am, however, capable of recognizing that not everyone plays the game the way I do or gets enjoyment from the same things, something others seem incapable of.

Edited June 11, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Ratajack]

It would seamless.

 

Tell me again how a juggernaut changing class to a marauder and not being able to wear the armor he wore 5 minutes ago is seamless.

[branmakmuffin]

Tell me again how a juggernaut changing class to a marauder and not being able to wear the armor he wore 5 minutes ago is seamless.

Tell me how that particular item would affect you or your characters.

 

And shame on you for quoting my typo.

[Ratajack]

Thats talking about Race though, any race that picks trooper, goes through the same trooper story line, same as in WoW. and in WoW there are specific class stories just because there is no hard driven story questline doesnt mean there isnt a story.

 

And again, its not changing classes, its AC changing. If wow were to call you a Retribution for the class after you specd into it as a paladin, would you no longer be the paladin? yes you would be, same thing here.

 

 

It IS changing class. Just because some people refuse to see the truth does not make it any less true. You can choose to ignore the devs own statements all you want, but there it is. AC's are DIFFERENT classes, and changing AC's would be changing CLASSES. Are they called advanced specs? NO, they are called advanced CLASSES.

[branmakmuffin]

It IS changing class. Just because some people refuse to see the truth does not make it any less true. You can choose to ignore the devs own statements all you want, but there it is. AC's are DIFFERENT classes, and changing AC's would be changing CLASSES. Are they called advanced specs? NO, they are called advanced CLASSES.

You say it's changing class, others say it's just changing advanced class. So why are you right and others wrong?

Edited June 11, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Ratajack]

Tell me how that particular item would affect you or your characters.

 

And shame on you for quoting my typo.

 

 

You asked. I'll answer, although I know that you will dismiss it out of hand because it does not mesh with your views.

 

Hypothetically, I play a marauder. I get grouped with a juggernaut tank. If a medium armor strength piece drops, by social convention, it should default to me. If they allow class changes, now I have to compete with that juggernaut who claims it is for his character because he may change class or is planning to change class and needs to build his gear set. Is that enough of an affect for you?

 

And, yes, shame on me for not catching and correcting your grammatical error.

[PeterTLJr]

It IS changing class. Just because some people refuse to see the truth does not make it any less true. You can choose to ignore the devs own statements all you want, but there it is. AC's are DIFFERENT classes, and changing AC's would be changing CLASSES. Are they called advanced specs? NO, they are called advanced CLASSES.

 

unless im wrong, which i might be, but isnt the beginning of the thread showing a dev saying that there has been talks about advance class switching and will most likely happen?

[PeterTLJr]

You asked. I'll answer, although I know that you will dismiss it out of hand because it does not mesh with your views.

 

Hypothetically, I play a marauder. I get grouped with a juggernaut tank. If a medium armor strength piece drops, by social convention, it should default to me. If they allow class changes, now I have to compete with that juggernaut who claims it is for his character because he may change class or is planning to change class and needs to build his gear set. Is that enough of an affect for you?

 

And, yes, shame on me for not catching and correcting your grammatical error.

 

armor doesnt decide a class. why is armor even a factor the only time armor will affect anybody is for the warrior/knight class, and theres an easy solution, if a medium piece drops and your on your heavy armor guy, you cant hit need, and if your on your medium armor guy, cant need on heavy

Edited June 11, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[Ratajack]

You say it's changing class, others say it's just changing advanced class. So why are you right and others wrong?

 

 

The devs have said they are different classes, or did you miss the multiple times the devs own statement was quoted. A statement and position, I might add, that the devs have remained steadfast about and from which they have never wavered since they made the determination that the AC's were different classes during BETA.

[PeterTLJr]

The devs have said they are different classes, or did you miss the multiple times the devs own statement was quoted. A statement and position, I might add, that the devs have remained steadfast about and from which they have never wavered since they made the determination that the AC's were different classes during BETA.

 

your ABSOLUTELY right, the devs have said that in the past but that doesnt mean it can be changed now.