My thoughts on Carnage (PvP)

[dinnaya]

Hey folks,

 

So I have been playing a Marauder for a while now, and mainly specced Carnage. I have found a Carnage a fun spec to play, both before and after the expansion, but I just feel like it really lacks damage in the longer run. Furthermore, if an enemy knows your spec well, he'll easily break off your burst with a simple stun. So yesterday, I decided to give Rage a chance. Now I might not be the best player out there of course, but I seriously think Rage is way better at this moment. I feel way more powerful, destructive and even less likely to die. Where I would have an average of 400k dmg a match with carnage, I get 700k+ every match with rage now (Settled my PR today at 1 million ) . Even on focussing down a single target, I feel like Rage is better.

 

So what I really wanted to ask you, the community: How are your experiences comparing these two specs to each other in PvP? Does Carnage really lack something compared to Rage, or is it just not the spec for me?

 

PS: Since I feel like the power of Carnage is so easily nullified by stuns, would it be an idea to do something with that? Would it for example maybe be an idea to entirely change to effect of Berserk to getting a full rage bar + 6 seconds of CC immunity? Or would that be too much?

 

PSS: Of course, Carnage does have advantages that do not show on a scoreboard, like predation. I still spec to carnage in huttball matches.

[AngusFTW]

I like to play carnage and have done ok with it ,wouldn't say it lacks dmg (healer heavy matches are 1.2k+ dps for me easy as carnage if they don't stun me too much ) but my stubborn self is already being asked to play rage for rwz (i hate playing this spec i don'y like it at all i enjoy the other 2 alot more) because of the sheer amount of aoe pressure it puts on a team,

 

The thing with carnage atm is they nerfed the auto crit force scream proc and i am at a loss as to why they did this considering the other tree has a massive aoe that auto crits on a mere leap. Also the survivability buffs to rage - cloak of pain , undying rage - was this really needed for rage? Not to mention the surge talent rage spec is hitting other abilitys such as vicious throw nearly as hard (if not more) as carnage... which is.. stupid..

 

I think carnage still does have the best single target burst in the game when rng is on your side which in turn with its roots and utility makes it the best healer killing spec when pugging it but thats just it atm.. its all RNG with carnage (don't get me started on the gore reset proc having a higher chance to proc then auto crit scream) and it shouldnt be (well not for scream anyway IMO) when rage has a autocrit aoe whos autocrit is procced in a ridiculously simple manner.

 

That being said i still enjoy the spec (you really have to be on your toes to play it well now compared to rage so the challenge is fun) and the burst it gives at times is immense and deadly but its very RNG reliant and stuns kill your dps.

Edited May 19, 2013 by AngusFTW

[Ashuranrx]

Carnage throws out more burst than Rage on single target by a lot. If you are doing better as Rage than as Carnage, then it just means that you are better at playing Rage than playing Carnage.

 

I believe that to be good at Carnage, you have to be good at strifing. You have to play it like an Operative almost. I succussfully "evade" Sorc's cone knockback many times by strifing to their backs continuously while attacking. Also, Carnage has no rotation. The spec is very chaotic and you have to use your instinct to throw whatever you have at the target during uptime.

[AngusFTW]

Rage will always put out more scoreboard dmg its an aoe monkey spec while carnage is single target. Edited May 20, 2013 by AngusFTW

[Aetrus]

That's because Carnage is a good, viable, but balanced spec with strengths and weaknesses. And Rage is possibly the most broken tree in the game and has been for months and months.

 

So yeah, when you compare the two, you might feel like one is lacking. I think Carnage is fine and is a better 1v1 spec as well as a better assassination spec (IE, killing the healers.) To each their own.

[TheHeat]

I think a lot of the issues with Carnage come from the fact that it's almost entirely proc based for its big hits like the auto-crit Scream. Rage, on the other hand, can throw out an on-demand auto-crit Smash whenever needed, thus sacrificing utility and single target damage for a big hit exactly when you need it.

[AngusFTW]

Still at a loss why nerfed it and made the auto crit scream so rng..

[Choffware]

There is only one adjustment I would make to carnage... that is execute should refresh the cool down of scream. Other than that it's a good solid spec. We will always lag behind Rage damage. I find it amazing that in some warzones where I feel I've dropped 20 targets in a row I'm still 3-4th in damage and kills... loosing to snipers ragers and sorcs most of the time. But when I play rage, I seem to just rack up kill credits and damage without seeming to be killing anyone that often. I think the stats lie a lot in this game.

[AngusFTW]

IMO the scream auto crit proc should be put back to where it was pre 2.0

Also a crit % increase to vicious throw talent would be nice in carnage tree.. Why put it in rage? Its actually quite a big part of our burst in 2.0 when it crits why does rage need a talent like that and carnage doesnt esp now that vicious throw is quite a big part of our burst... Why should rage get that but carnage doesnt... just makes no sense to me.

Edited May 21, 2013 by AngusFTW

[Loknido]

I just tried Carnage for first time yesterday and here are my thoughts (from PVP PoV):

I LOVE IT! I was getting bored with rage it's basically the same thing, waiting for 3 stacks of shockwave, charge/obliterate for 100% crit, then smash after that it's all pretty much a rage dump.

carnage is way more chaotic, i haven't really found a "rotation" besides using Massacre to get a higher chance to trigger slaughter, gore for the armor penetration, ravage when it's up and force scream on procs.

I'll admit i'm not putting out as much damage up on the board like I did with rage but i can definitely down 1 person faster (healers) which makes it worth it IMO (whats the point of all that AoE damage if it just gets healed back up).

Overall, I'm just having more fun.

[Kawiki]

I have played both and had a similar experience. Rage I would easily top the damage on the scoreboard but it was mind numbingly boring to play.

 

Carnage is more of a healer killer and IMO is more of an assest to your team.

[Cary]

Long time carnage marauder here but, recently I have switched to anni due to how chaotic carnage is right now and the change to FS, Must say though I am enjoying anni, gets annoying against a skilled scoundrel/op healer that cleanses my dots, other than that though its a monster now they buffed it.

 

I will never play rage on my marauder, I hate it and its boring. Just like I don't play focus on my guardian, vigiliance ftw.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Cary

[Kruulhoof]

I'm curious as to what you all would recommend for a lvl 37 Marauder. I was trying rage and Carnage when I got into a WZ last night with 2 other Maras. They both said to use Anni until I can max out the rage tree and that carnage was meh. Being completely new to this class I would like to get input from you all as to what is most effective at my level. Thanks for any advice.

[Pearlie]

I'm curious as to what you all would recommend for a lvl 37 Marauder. I was trying rage and Carnage when I got into a WZ last night with 2 other Maras. They both said to use Anni until I can max out the rage tree and that carnage was meh. Being completely new to this class I would like to get input from you all as to what is most effective at my level. Thanks for any advice.

 

I wouldn't run carnage until you can get massacre. And then you'll need 3 points in the annihilation tree (Enraged Slash) or you'll constantly be rage starved.

[Ryvirath]

Rage is better full stop. Carnage has serious resource management issues, but remains a fun spec to play now and then. Basically relegated to Huttball spec, though technically you can run gore-smash for huttball and still have super predation.

[Kruulhoof]

Thanks for the replies. I enjoyed Rage the most so I'm going to go switch back to it.

[Nekrall]

It's a bold statement, but it is a true one. I am the best Carnage Marauder on POT5 in PvP. In PvE, there is one other one that can keep up with me, but I do double or more damage than the other "good" carnage marauders on my server, and more than triple the damage of average ones. I have always been able to beat out smash marauders on the scoreboard, and I still can most of the time, (putting up 1mil plus in full length void stars/civil wars) but it has just gotten to the point where it is too difficult to struggle with the changes that killed any consistency with the spec.

 

In PvE I believe I will remain Carnage, but for PvP it is just not viable anymore and I will be respeccing today, which is something I am sad about because I have been playing Carnage since release.

 

The Carnage changes ruined the spec for PvP, it is the only way to put it. If you are thinking of making a Carnage Marauder for PvP don't, just go rage. I will be posting a long thread about why I feel this way, but I will go over some of the main issues here.

 

Carnage, in all aspects, has been changed immensely compared to other specs. The first problem with carnage is the execute change.

 

Carnage could keep up in damage before because it was consistent, the changes have made it a spec that does not flow together anymore. Before the xpac you had two pretty standard burst combos in your gore window, these two burst combos would be gore with ravage & scream, and gore with scream and 3 massacres (with berserk up).

 

To accompany these burst combos we had downtime which would be filled mainly with massacre spam while berserk was up, in warzones before I never, if very rarely had to auto attack because of the rage reduction berserk gave me on massacre. I would say now I auto attack once for every two massacres I try to push out which drops your damage a tremendous amount.

 

The idea of the gore refresh, and it giving you a free vicious throw to me is a little ridiculous. Force scream is the go to and well known ability of carnage spec, and they choose to give us a free vicious throw which is an ability I used only when I did not have my berserk up. Carnage marauders do not get any buffs to vicious throw outside of us using it in our gore window....it just seems a very strange ability to throw into the mix for us.

 

My main problem with this is that it practically forces you to open with charge->gore->ravage->"whatever". You will most likely get a proc for the refresh because it has a higher proc change than execute even (for whatever reason) so if you try to throw in a massacre & battering beforehand half of the proc will be wasted. Trying for this gimps carnage marauders even more because they cannot have the massacre buff up for their ravage, which gives them two less chances to proc execute over that duration, and two less chances for a scream (which they need!).

 

What you get with the carnage spec now is a marauder with an 80% movespeed buff who can auto attack very quickly (due to the berserk changes). That is about it. Carnage marauders now have no reliable burst combo, no rage management/something to do in downtime other than auto attack, and the Slaughter (gore refresh changes) don't synergise with the spec at all.

 

 

tldr; inconsistent, rage heavy (lots of auto attacks), no synergy with itself anymore.

 

 

 

As previously stated I will be making a thread detailing how the changes have completely neutered the spec, and how changes such as an operatives roll are even making playing carnage a joke but it will be something I have to work on for a few days. It is strange that they took a fun, not very common spec for the marauder, and for lack of a better term "massacred" it.

 

Have a good one guys, RIP carnage =(

[eavn]

Basically

 

Carnage = Huttball

 

Rage = everything else

 

sadface.jpg

[Mikeieveli]

Carnage/Combat does seem behind rage/Focus in damage. A simple fix would be to increase the proc rate of Execute/Opportune attack from 30% to 50-60%. It doesnt have to be up 100% like pre 2.0, but significantly increased. Its our number one attack and is not up as much as dispatch/vs is. Smash will inherently do a lot of damage since its an aoe, but there is a surge buff in the smash tree. Combat/Carnage needs this surge buff also and the crit damage on attacks will be on par with that of Smash.

[Ugolino]

Your specs don't matter. Everyone plays Rage. Respec or enjoy being irrelevant compared to baby's first marauder mashing the three buttons.

 

At least that's the message that people are getting.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Ugolino

[Strzzy]

i would love annihilation's damage to keep up wth at least carnages tired of having to play rage or carnage because annihilation isn't as good as them.

[AngusFTW]

i would love annihilation's damage to keep up wth at least carnages tired of having to play rage or carnage because annihilation isn't as good as them.

http://assets.enjin.com/wall_embed_images/1370769822_Screenshot_2013-06-09_10_22_39_405630.jpg

Annihilation has good steady dmg and can keep up with carnage scoreboard dmg wise fairly easily tbh its the burst that it can't really keep up with and thats what is needed in competitive pvp which is why carnage/rage is preferred. I still enjoy playing it in regs tho ^^ Its beastly 1v1 etc most people don't even expect a watchman/anni that knows how to play anymore since most people that enter in the spec are pvers that don't do much dmg and most of the original guys thay played it went carnage/rage

Edited June 11, 2013 by AngusFTW

[Strzzy]

http://assets.enjin.com/wall_embed_images/1370769822_Screenshot_2013-06-09_10_22_39_405630.jpg

Annihilation has good steady dmg and can keep up with carnage scoreboard dmg wise fairly easily tbh its the burst that it can't really keep up with and thats what is needed in competitive pvp which is why carnage/rage is preferred. I still enjoy playing it in regs tho ^^ Its beastly 1v1 etc most people don't even expect a watchman/anni that knows how to play anymore since most people that enter in the spec are pvers that don't do much dmg and most of the original guys thay played it went carnage/rage

 

im pretty sure you know that 700k dmg isnt impressive , but doing 300k more than second tops damage is

[AngusFTW]

700k dmg in itself isnt impressive no but it was basically in one round sine we capped instantly. Not too bad i'd say To get numbers like that in watchman is basically staying on healers tho thats what happened... Combat would do more kills quicker on the healers, rage would do more dmg but i think anni/watchman is still really fun. I like all specs tbh. Edited June 11, 2013 by AngusFTW

[Aetrus]

700k dmg in itself isnt impressive no but it was basically in one round sine we capped instantly. Not too bad i'd say To get numbers like that in watchman is basically staying on healers tho thats what happened... Combat would do more kills quicker on the healers, rage would do more dmg but i think anni/watchman is still really fun. I like all specs tbh.

 

Yeah... http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws.com/319210/module_gallery/original/1277401.jpg The Sentinel, Crypticus, plays Watchman (you can probably tell from the 250k healing.) I don't think they need to increase the damage or burst on Annihilation. I think they need to increase the healing or its defensive capabilities. It's kind of stupid that Rage is not only the tankiest mara spec, but the highest damaging (for PvP.) I mean, you get 9% DR basically for just being in the spec. Carnage gets the massive AoE damage reduction and a few stacking DR buffs. Annihilation gets...some crappy healing that isn't actually enough to make a difference during a fight.