Beware: Dye Modules, TOTAL RIPOFF

[Thundergulch]

She just hates me Clavis. I'm very upset. Like... I'm thinking about composing a Tweet about it.

.

 

OH NO! Not a tweet! Dear god, has it really come to that? This is now serious biznes.

[Andryah]

However, all you do is defend all things about this game, even if its bad...... So, since the game and everything BW does is perfection to you, it is no surprise, you again, defend what is happening.

 

Nice of you to completely ignore and disregard those times when I do point out things I would prefer are different in how the game is implemented.

 

Just to site one recent example: I have said multiple times this week that I would prefer they change the way Collections are implemented so that you gain a collection based on binding across your legacy or account of characters, not require the binding of gear be fixed to one character. That my dear is a polite criticism of a game implementation coupled with how I would like to see them address it. By all means, review my recent post history if you do not believe me.

 

But you right in that I don't foam at the mouth, throw down temper tantrums, QQ about it, or threaten to quit if I don't get my way. Perhaps, that's the only kind of player critique of the game you acknowledge as valid??

 

Any other invalid ad hominem attacks you would like to throw my direction?

Edited May 22, 2013 by Andryah

[LordArtemis]

However, all you do is defend all things about this game, even if its bad...... So, since the game and everything BW does is perfection to you, it is no surprise, you again, defend what is happening.

 

I rarely agree with Andryah completely (though its not often we are on complete opposite sides of an issue) and have even taken pause to his behavior on the forums recently a few times. But one thing I do know for sure is that though he may often defend the game, he does not always do so.

 

I have seen a few well constructed complaints and suggestions for improvement, and more than one agreement with a complaint that was well presented.

 

I criticize the game constantly (In my own way) but rarely find I am in a shooting match with Andryah. Of course I do not attack Andryah, or anyone for that matter (at least I believe not). I also present most of my "complaints" as suggestions. Instead of throwing out complaints, I suggest changes.

 

At any rate, I think it's really unfair to make sweeping statements like Andryah "always defends the game" or "never complains"....it's just not true. Rarely perhaps, but not never.

Edited May 22, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Andryah]

IMO, they look pretty kriffing silly cancelling because an off-cycle patch (read: one they shouldn't have expected) happened.

 

That's like cancelling my subscription to the Beer of the Month club because they sent me a free, extra 6-pack mid-month but I didn't like the labels on the bottles.

 

I agree with you on that. It goes against their own interests if they actually enjoy the MMO, broadly speaking.

 

Though I respect their right to quit at any time for any reason. I respect the right, NOT the behavior in how some of them go about fouling up the forums about the fact that they are going to do unless Bioware makes them happy hapy.

 

From a pragmatic standpoint.. if I quit an MMO just because they implement something in a method different from my personal preference.. I would be perpetually out of MMOs to play. Since I play MMOs for fun and entertainment, rather then as a morale crusade or something to be in constant conflict with.... I'm fine with MMOs, and understand that I have to adpat to what is presented...it's in my personal best interests to do so.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Andryah

[carlbaratta]

I agree with you on that. It goes against their own interests if they actually enjoy the MMO, broadly speaking.

 

Though I respect their right to quit at any time for any reason. I respect the right, NOT the behavior in how some of them go about fouling up the forums about the fact that they are going to do unless Bioware makes them happy hapy.

 

From a pragmatic standpoint.. if I quit an MMO just because they implement something in a method different from my personal preference.. I would be perpetually out of MMOs to play. Since I play MMOs for fun and entertainment, rather then as a morale crusade or something to be in constant conflict with.... I'm fine with MMOs, and understand that I have to adpat to what is presented...it's in my personal best interests to do so.

 

Wait you're making sense and looking at this as a normal person. How dare you!

[Anzel]

OH NO! Not a tweet! Dear god, has it really come to that? This is now serious biznes.

 

You're you're right... I kinda flew off the handle there. After a good night's sleep I really questioned my decision to compose the Tweet.

 

I'm much calmer now and back to only being upset about gambling packs and the rotting pile of dog crap that is the dye system.

[branmakmuffin]

All I want is to see this game succeed. I think that it can but the gambling packs have to go. I'm OK with the Cartel Market. I'm OK with paying extra but the gambling packs are killing this game. Good people are quitting every single day.

You claim to want the game to succeed, but you don't want BWEA to do things which bring money to the game which will help it succeed.

 

If "good" people are quitting the game, no one knows about it, including you.

Edited May 22, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Snowangel]

In the context of your personal passion and desire, perhaps. But in any commercial terms, from a business standpoint (and it is a business, like it or not) it's a commercially profitable game based on Star Wars IP. It is not Star Wars, per se.

 

And that is exactly what I ment. The name Star Wars stands for one of the biggest business dealings in entertainment ever. Everything having stamped its name on it does not only have the potential to bring big profits but also has the power to set standards. A stamp like 'Star Wars' enables a company to establish something new and make it acceptable - which influences other companys of the same category and with the same purpose: Making lots of money.

 

The customers decide about something to be successfully established or not.

 

So if you consider gambling for game content a good customer service and worth to become normal in the future of online games: Buy as much Hypercrates, Dye Packs (and whatever might follow) as you can, to support and further SWTOR to the max.

 

If you are not really happy with gambling yet wish to support the game because you like it, buy everything else offered in the Cartel Market.

 

If you just don't care and buy your stuff on GTM... fine. At least you will be able to tell your children that you have been a true pioneer while you are buying new Coins for whatever stupid game with their pocket money.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Edited May 22, 2013 by Snowangel

[Anzel]

You claim to want the game to succeed, but you don't want BWEA to do things which bring money to the game which will help it succeed.

 

If "good" people are quitting the game, no one knows about it, including you.

 

OK. All snarkiness and trollishness aside. Do you really believe that the *only* way to bring money into this game is through gambling? Do you *reallly* believe that gambling packs are good for the overall long term success of this game? You don't believe there are alternate designs that would have been even more profitable in the long term?

 

Ask yourself, what would this game be like if they did away with gambling and just listed everything? Would people still pay extra? Would the community be happier? Would more people want to play?

 

My problem isn't with them making money. I love money. I believe 100% in what Gordon Gecko says about greed. But this design isn't about Capitalism or about profit. This design is a clear signal that they are intentionally and transparently trying to grasp at the last few dollars that they can from people with gambling problems before shutting it down.

[Kilora]

OK. All snarkiness and trollishness aside. Do you really believe that the *only* way to bring money into this game is through gambling? Do you *reallly* believe that gambling packs are good for the overall long term success of this game? You don't believe there are alternate designs that would have been even more profitable in the long term?

 

Ask yourself, what would this game be like if they did away with gambling and just listed everything? Would people still pay extra? Would the community be happier? Would more people want to play?

 

My problem isn't with them making money. I love money. I believe 100% in what Gordon Gecko says about greed. But this design isn't about Capitalism or about profit. This design is a clear signal that they are intentionally and transparently trying to grasp at the last few dollars that they can from people with gambling problems before shutting it down.

 

Please, in all seriousness, stop with the "gambling problems" ********.

 

You are belittling people who ACTUALLY have gambling addictions -- and showing a complete lack of understanding as to what gambling addiction is.

 

At the very most, these packs are a way for people with poor impulse control to be parted with their money. I would prefer it if they stopped adding stuff to the packs like dyes -- but at the same time, people will continue purchasing these packs, and selling them for credits (or selling the items in the packs). I don't have to gamble, and it is not my place NOR your place to take something away from others who may enjoy it.

 

Clearly, the random packs are selling extremely well. If they weren't -- dyes wouldn't've been put into random packs.

[LordArtemis]

OK. All snarkiness and trollishness aside. Do you really believe that the *only* way to bring money into this game is through gambling?

 

If you don't mind me interjecting here (I know I'm not the one you were talking to) it isn't naturally. But it is rather lucrative I would expect. My guess is it is one of their biggest revenue streams.

 

Do you *reallly* believe that gambling packs are good for the overall long term success of this game? You don't believe there are alternate designs that would have been even more profitable in the long term?

 

I don't know. It's possible. I would have to concede that. It's a proven system, but perhaps not the only one. I personally do not like the idea of the packs, but I like the items I can buy on the GTN from the CM, a large amount of those items a result of the packs.

 

The gambling nature of the packs cause folks to dump unwanted items on the market. That makes them available to stingy folks like myself.

 

Ask yourself, what would this game be like if they did away with gambling and just listed everything? Would people still pay extra? Would the community be happier? Would more people want to play?

 

It's all possible I'll admit. I think it might reduce the availability of items on the GTN though, since people could simply buy what they want directly.

 

My problem isn't with them making money. I love money. I believe 100% in what Gordon Gecko says about greed. But this design isn't about Capitalism or about profit. This design is a clear signal that they are intentionally and transparently trying to grasp at the last few dollars that they can from people with gambling problems before shutting it down.

 

Well, I think that's a bit of an extreme view and just doesn't seem to be realistic to me. Of course that means next to nothing. You are entitled to your view naturally.

Edited May 22, 2013 by LordArtemis

[branmakmuffin]

OK. All snarkiness and trollishness aside. Do you really believe that the *only* way to bring money into this game is through gambling?

Does it matter whether or not it's the only way? It is one way. You just happen to not like it. Well, the solution to that is staring you right in the face.

 

Do you *reallly* believe that gambling packs are good for the overall long term success of this game? You don't believe there are alternate designs that would have been even more profitable in the long term?

Why does it have to be an "either/or" situation?

 

Ask yourself, what would this game be like if they did away with gambling and just listed everything? Would people still pay extra? Would the community be happier? Would more people want to play?

I wouldn't care if they listed everything individually. I also don't care that they have the packs. If BWEA discovers that the packs no longer pay off, they'll scrap them.

 

This design is a clear signal that they are intentionally and transparently trying to grasp at the last few dollars that they can from people with gambling problems before shutting it down.

If you truly believe that, why are you still subscribing (or did you recently cancel)?

[Andryah]

OK. All snarkiness and trollishness aside. Do you really believe that the *only* way to bring money into this game is through gambling? Do you *reallly* believe that gambling packs are good for the overall long term success of this game?

 

Thing is Anzel.. those packs you are so worked up over are not the only way revenue comes to the game. So your question is specious. There is non pack content in the CM and it sells by the truckload as well. There is subscriber revenue on what at last report (just a few weeks ago) was near 500K, stable and growing. Sure there is pack revenue, but it's not THE revenue that feeds the game.. it is A REVENUE that feeds the game. The revenue stream in this game appears pretty well diversified now actually, and from a business standpoint that is a good thing.

 

As for if the packs are good or bad....that is for Bioware to assess, tune, and manage over time. Neither you nor I are qualified, nor do we have the data to make that determination. But I'm positive Bioware wants the game to be thriving and successful for years to come.... simply because it is in their best interests that it do so.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Andryah

[Anzel]

Please, in all seriousness, stop with the "gambling problems" ********.

 

You are belittling people who ACTUALLY have gambling addictions -- and showing a complete lack of understanding as to what gambling addiction is.

 

At the very most, these packs are a way for people with poor impulse control to be parted with their money. I would prefer it if they stopped adding stuff to the packs like dyes -- but at the same time, people will continue purchasing these packs, and selling them for credits (or selling the items in the packs). I don't have to gamble, and it is not my place NOR your place to take something away from others who may enjoy it.

 

Clearly, the random packs are selling extremely well. If they weren't -- dyes wouldn't've been put into random packs.

 

Well then let me be more clear on this. They are intentionally preying on people with gambling problems. Yes, I understand that people suffer from addiction but let's not pretend that ***I**** am the one being insensitive. Let's not pretend that by drawing attention to it that *I* am somehow the bad guy. If you've been reading these forums *I* am the one lobbying heavily for their removal.

 

They are absolutely, intentionally and transparently preying on these people. Just so that there's no confusion on what's happening here. This system, the dye system, they system we are discussing in this thread is a shining example of that.

[Thundergulch]

Well then let me be more clear on this. They are intentionally preying on people with gambling problems. Yes, I understand that people suffer from addiction but let's not pretend that ***I**** am the one being insensitive. Let's not pretend that by drawing attention to it that *I* am somehow the bad guy. If you've been reading these forums *I* am the one lobbying heavily for their removal.

 

They are absolutely, intentionally and transparently preying on these people. Just so that there's no confusion on what's happening here. This system, the dye system, they system we are discussing in this thread is a shining example of that.

 

Oh just shut up already.

Intentionally preying on people with gambling problems? You're making yourself look even more stupid (if that's possible).

What about the lottery? Are you forced to buy lottery tickets at your local store?

You are not being forced to buy anything in this game, so do us all a favor and go away.

[AlienEyeTX]

Well then let me be more clear on this. They are intentionally preying on people with gambling problems. Yes, I understand that people suffer from addiction but let's not pretend that ***I**** am the one being insensitive. Let's not pretend that by drawing attention to it that *I* am somehow the bad guy. If you've been reading these forums *I* am the one lobbying heavily for their removal.

 

They are absolutely, intentionally and transparently preying on these people. Just so that there's no confusion on what's happening here. This system, the dye system, they system we are discussing in this thread is a shining example of that.

 

Would you please stop calling this "gambling?" Grab bag packs are not gambling. There is a chance of different items being in the packs, but there will always be a set number of items, all of which have some use in the game.

 

Grab bag. Not gambling. Get it straight.

 

[Thundergulch]

we could also use your same idiotic logic to another aspect of the game since you think dye packs are contributing to gambling addictions.... do you spend all of your time and credits on Ancient Artifact Crates?

No? why not? You just never know what might be in there!

See what i did there.

[Kilora]

Well then let me be more clear on this. They are intentionally preying on people with gambling problems. Yes, I understand that people suffer from addiction but let's not pretend that ***I**** am the one being insensitive. Let's not pretend that by drawing attention to it that *I* am somehow the bad guy. If you've been reading these forums *I* am the one lobbying heavily for their removal.

 

They are absolutely, intentionally and transparently preying on these people. Just so that there's no confusion on what's happening here. This system, the dye system, they system we are discussing in this thread is a shining example of that.

 

Are you kidding me?

 

You clearly have NO UNDERSTANDING OF GAMBLING ADDICTION WHATSOEVER.

THEY ARE NOT PREYING ON ANYONE.

 

In fact, they are SIGNIFICANTLY more responsible than any casino or lottery in existance! Why? You are GUARANTEED items.

 

They are not using deceptive means to force you to purchase anything.

They are not using psychology (in this game) to get you to purchase anything.

They are not using blinking lights and sounds to increase the "joy" of "winning."

They are not handing you free alcohol and letting you gamble while you drink it.

They do not allow you to purchase CCs in excess -- your account is locked out once hitting the limit.

 

 

Go walk into a gambling addict meeting, please, and spew this garbage to them. You'll probably be beaten half-to-death for trivializing their addictions. Gambling addicts will NOT have any interest in paying money for packs guaranteed to be filled with digital items worth $0 in the real world.

 

Alas, I'm seriously done arguing with you. I apologize for this personal attack -- but if you are so ignorant that you cannot see the BS in this argument, there is no hope for you. I hope you leave this game, and never look back.

 

You have no interest in the future of the game. You have interest in creating arguments with people, attacking anyone who views something logically or differently, and smearing your hate all over these forums.

 

Good day, sir.

[Anzel]

Are you kidding me?

 

You clearly have NO UNDERSTANDING OF GAMBLING ADDICTION WHATSOEVER.

THEY ARE NOT PREYING ON ANYONE.

 

In fact, they are SIGNIFICANTLY more responsible than any casino or lottery in existance! Why? You are GUARANTEED items.

 

They are not using deceptive means to force you to purchase anything.

They are not using psychology (in this game) to get you to purchase anything.

They are not using blinking lights and sounds to increase the "joy" of "winning."

They are not handing you free alcohol and letting you gamble while you drink it.

They do not allow you to purchase CCs in excess -- your account is locked out once hitting the limit.

 

 

Go walk into a gambling addict meeting, please, and spew this garbage to them. You'll probably be beaten half-to-death for trivializing their addictions. Gambling addicts will NOT have any interest in paying money for packs guaranteed to be filled with digital items worth $0 in the real world.

 

Alas, I'm seriously done arguing with you. I apologize for this personal attack -- but if you are so ignorant that you cannot see the BS in this argument, there is no hope for you. I hope you leave this game, and never look back.

 

You have no interest in the future of the game. You have interest in creating arguments with people, attacking anyone who views something logically or differently, and smearing your hate all over these forums.

 

Good day, sir.

 

Well I'm sorry that you are so upset by this... and I'm sorry that this thread has been derailed by a debate over gambling addictions. The bottom line is that it is gambling. They are asking for actual currency in exchange for a game of chance. Just like dice, or slots or any other game of chance that accepts real currency. They know this. They know that people have problems with this. They are preying on those people. It's unethical and they should remove gambling packs from the game altogether.

 

There are plenty of other ethical ways to earn money in this world. Asking young kids and people with gambling problems to purchase gambling packs isn't one of them. I'm really really sorry they can't see that.... even more sorry that you can't either...

[Thundergulch]

They are asking for actual currency in exchange for .<snip>

 

 

 

 

Do you constantly post on your state's lottery website telling them the same thing? If you don't then you are nothing but one big hypocrite.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Thundergulch

[Kilora]

Well I'm sorry that you are so upset by this... and I'm sorry that this thread has been derailed by a debate over gambling addictions. The bottom line is that it is gambling. They are asking for actual currency in exchange for a game of chance. Just like dice, or slots or any other game of chance that accepts real currency. They know this. They know that people have problems with this. They are preying on those people. It's unethical and they should remove gambling packs from the game altogether.

 

There are plenty of other ethical ways to earn money in this world. Asking young kids and people with gambling problems to purchase gambling packs isn't one of them. I'm really really sorry they can't see that.... even more sorry that you can't either...

 

Sorry.

 

The bottom line is that it is NOT gambling.

If this was truly gambling, it would be illegal.

Therefore, LEGALLY, it is NOT gambling.

 

Your opinion does not matter, especially when LAWS prove you to be wrong.

End of story.

[Anzel]

Sorry.

 

The bottom line is that it is NOT gambling.

If this was truly gambling, it would be illegal.

Therefore, LEGALLY, it is NOT gambling.

 

Your opinion does not matter, especially when LAWS prove you to be wrong.

End of story.

 

I'm not contending that it's illegal, just unethical. I'm sure that there's some legal loophole that EA slipped through to make this happen but that doesn't make it any more ethical. It doesn't lessen the rage that a big portion of the community is feeling. It doesn't bring back all of those people you see quitting every day because of it.

 

The need to remove gambling packs. They are unethical. They are not good for the long term success of this game. They are not incenting people to subscribe or even try this game. I just don't see it any other way.

[Kilora]

I'm not contending that it's illegal, just unethical. I'm sure that there's some legal loophole that EA slipped through to make this happen but that doesn't make it any more ethical. It doesn't lessen the rage that a big portion of the community is feeling. It doesn't bring back all of those people you see quitting every day because of it.

 

The need to remove gambling packs. They are unethical. They are not good for the long term success of this game. They are not incenting people to subscribe or even try this game. I just don't see it any other way.

 

Please tell me, when will you finally quit over this?

 

I'm guessing you won't. Because vast amounts of people aren't bothereing to quit.

 

Offering a product that is a grab bag is not illegal. It is not unethical. They MAY be keeping them in in the hopes of getting more money, but even that isn't unethical.

 

And, unless you are a professor on Business Ethics, you have no right to lecture others on what is or isn't ethical. People are purchasing these by the crate-full because they WANT to.

 

Selling cigarettes is unethical, and much more damaging. Why don't you go expend your energy on anti-tobacco laws.

[AlienEyeTX]

<snip>They are not incenting people to subscribe or even try this game. I just don't see it any other way.

 

The grab bags bring a lot of money into the game. Maybe they will make up a smaller piece of the pie now that customization is available, but they most assuredly are still important to the maintenance of this game.

 

Besides, they are fun for lots of people. If someone cannot control their spending on these, then that is a problem for the individual to resolve. It does not fall on EA/BW to babysit or fold for the needs of the very few.

 

Suppose I like collecting baseball cards. Are those packs gambling? Should Topps (or whomever makes them now) shut down and stop selling cards if I spend all of my income on them?

 

No.

[Anzel]

Please tell me, when will you finally quit over this?

 

Ummmm OK?

 

I'm guessing you won't. Because vast amounts of people aren't bothereing to quit.

 

Remember when this game had over 2 million subscribers? 1.5 million of them quit. Probably more given "churn".

 

Offering a product that is a grab bag is not illegal. It is not unethical. They MAY be keeping them in in the hopes of getting more money, but even that isn't unethical.

 

It's amazingly unethical. It's bad for this game. It's a shame that you don't see that.

 

And, unless you are a professor on Business Ethics, you have no right to lecture others on what is or isn't ethical. People are purchasing these by the crate-full because they WANT to.

 

I'm not lecturing anyone on anything. I'm expressing my opinion. My subscription **entitles** me to that here on these forums. Judging by the direction of this game that's about all our subscription **entitles** us to so feel free to disagree.

 

Selling cigarettes is unethical, and much more damaging. Why don't you go expend your energy on anti-tobacco laws.

 

Yes they are. They are terrible. But this thread is about the enormous steaming pile of rotting dog crap that is the SWTOR dye system.